the curse of packaged routes.

HiBaller said:

I fully agree. I have yet to find a way to see if a given route on the DLS has missing dependencies without actually downloading the route (and incurring the "gigabytes of assets"). How is that done? Using filters or something?

Bill

Click to expand...

Most route cdp files on the dls will not have the assets themselves, only the references to them. So download the route, then ask to show dependencies in the CM

pware said:

Since the most common cause of this issue is that all assets with dependencies simply reference those dependencies in their config.txt files, then the obvious solution is to force all asset uploads to include all their dependencies in full. By that I mean all the texture files, scripts, images, sounds, etc in the dependencies included in the download. And if any of those dependencies have dependencies of their own then those must always be included as well.

The big advantage of this is that when you download a route, for example, you will get the route and everything it contains exactly as it was originally created with no missing assets. If a DLS asset is updated in a DLC package and is not uploaded to the DLS then it will not be a problem as you have the original version as specified and required by your route.

Downside? None I can think of, after all who these days does not have GB/sec download speeds with unlimited downloads?

Click to expand...

And how are we supposed to do that if we cannot find the dependencies to begin with, which is the basis of this thread?

pitkin said:

Most route cdp files on the dls will not have the assets themselves, only the references to them. So download the route, then ask to show dependencies in the CM

Click to expand...

The problem I have with this is the CM download process won't stop at just the route. It always keeps going and downloading each and every piece of content in the route CDP. I can't seem to stop it. Unluess you're talking about using the White Pages and FTP. I suppose i could get FileZilla to do that.

Bill

just to illustrate this issue, these are the stump and rocks series of items and their status on my PC 2019 SP4,
all are built in payware , apart from
<kuid2:661281:96326:3> Stump and Rocks 2 - Stump 10 - Seasonal
<kuid2:661281:96327:3> Stump and Rocks 2 - Stump 11 - Seasonal
which are packaged payware, these are the items that Pitkin could not see, they were marked " unknown"
i use these items extensively as i would not have expected some of them to become unseeable for other users, if i remove these there really nothing else i can substitute in their place and what also is there to prevent others of this series also becoming packaged payware in the future and similarly disappearing into the ether? BTW , my op was not referring to third party items on external sites used within routes as some people seem to think it was, its these items that are installed on the DLS which are built in and then suddenly become unavailable to others,in addition to erstwhile DLS items contained within routes that come with the app.
How in merry hell do you cope with this phenomena when the route you made checked out ok and then a year later it presents with new unknown items ?
<kuid2:661281:96315:4> Stump and Rocks 2 - Rock 10 - Seasonal
<kuid2:661281:96316:4> Stump and Rocks 2 - Rock 11 - Seasonal
<kuid2:661281:96317:4> Stump and Rocks 2 - Rock 1 - Seasonal
<kuid2:661281:96318:4> Stump and Rocks 2 - Rock 2 - Seasonal
<kuid2:661281:96319:4> Stump and Rocks 2 - Rock 3 - Seasonal
<kuid2:661281:96320:4> Stump and Rocks 2 - Rock 4 - Seasonal
<kuid2:661281:96321:4> Stump and Rocks 2 - Rock 5 - Seasonal
<kuid2:661281:96322:4> Stump and Rocks 2 - Rock 6 - Seasonal
<kuid2:661281:96323:4> Stump and Rocks 2 - Rock 7 - Seasonal
<kuid2:661281:96324:4> Stump and Rocks 2 - Rock 8 - Seasonal
<kuid2:661281:96325:4> Stump and Rocks 2 - Rock 9 - Seasonal
<kuid2:661281:96329:3> Stump and Rocks 2 - Stump 13 - Seasonal
<kuid:661281:96522> Stump and Rocks - Rock Group 1 - Seasonal
<kuid2:661281:96330:3> Stump and Rocks 2 - Stump 17 - Seasonal
<kuid2:661281:96331:3> Stump and Rocks 2 - Stump 8 - Seasonal

HiBaller said:

The problem I have with this is the CM download process won't stop at just the route. It always keeps going and downloading each and every piece of content in the route CDP. I can't seem to stop it. Unluess you're talking about using the White Pages and FTP. I suppose i could get FileZilla to do that.

Bill

Click to expand...

i just kill the window showing the download progress as soon as the CM shows downloaded from DLS. The config file will then be present and you can ask the CM to show depdencies without loading all of them.

True. i have done that in the past. But, there are times when the little daemon that effects the download simply won't stop. I've seen it happen in the Task Manager, and it network traffic flow. I did discover that if I temporarily freeze my firewall (my A/V software - Emsisoft - has a button to do that) it WILL kill the download process. Perhaps I should use it all the time.

Bill

HiBaller said:

True. i have done that in the past. But, there are times when the little daemon that effects the download simply won't stop. I've seen it happen in the Task Manager, and it network traffic flow. I did discover that if I temporarily freeze my firewall (my A/V software - Emsisoft - has a button to do that) it WILL kill the download process. Perhaps I should use it all the time.

Bill

Click to expand...

Try disabling your internet connection.

pware said:

x

.

Click to expand...

Perhaps you have not read the "terms and condition" that apply to uploading assets to the DLS?

Yes I have and I am quite aware that N3V have the right to make changes to an asset for use in a DLC.



And if the creator decides, for whatever reasons, not to place the upgraded version on the DLS? That is their right if they choose to do so. What then?

This completely evades the purpose of my post which was to ask, "How can a creator refuse to allow an N3V modified asset to be also uploaded to the DLS, if they have no idea that it has been modified or asked the question in the first place?"



Again, that may be a decision of the original creator. As I posted earlier, there have also been cases where the original creator has simply forgotten to upload the assets to the DLS. The "missing upgrades" have then appeared some time (sometimes a considerable time) later after a user has "politely" posted the creator about the missing assets. We are all human.

See my response to your second point. It would be interesting to know what percentage of creators who have assets on the DLS, subsequently refuse to allow the upgraded version on the DLS. How many are actually asked? If the question is never asked it is unreasonable to make any conclusion regarding the wish of the creator.



Zec and others have made posts on this issue ever since the "Packaged" assets appeared so they clearly do have an interest in tackling it, but obviously not fast enough for everyone's liking.

We must wait several years at the current rate. Furthermore the explantion of the process by Zec (I have forgotten which post this was from) involves getting permission from the original asset creator.

Mike

I just downloaded these 4 routes from the content store yesterday:

<kuid2:453099:100037:20> C&O Hinton Division
<kuid2:82412:104611:9> Milwaukee Road Avery-Drexel
<kuid2:154322:101483:23> ECML Kings Cross - Edinburgh
<kuid2:82412:104711:7> Season Town Northern RR

I now have 438 out of date assets. ??????? I think the new version should have been downloaded with the route. That is a lot of extra work.

Its its quite annoying and frustrating Installed Payware in TANE especially when some of the content is actually freeware in in the first place. My point if N3V want have it as built-in fine but don't label free as installed Payware and where it is faulty you can even fix.
What I also to be annoying and frustrating in TRS19 and TRS22 when you have routes that require one or two assets that are labled Installed Payware we have download the entire Payware route just for few assets. for two assets <kuid2:82412:44040:2> TUME-Y-Bridge-Support-101-TS12 and <kuid2:45324:39200:1> JR PRR Signal Bridge 1 I
have download two Payware routes.

"but don't label free as installed Payware " THIS... thank you for pointing it out.

N3V changed the way payware was presented to us some time ago. Originally the asset were contained in several SCxxx folders and it was when the change was made to roll everything into a single .tzarc file that we began to encounter "packaged" assets. As route creators used DLS assets in more and more DLC routes, whether free or payware, the problem arose with many popular DLS assets becoming packaged and seemingly unavailable. This coupled with the gold and old silver class subscription offerings led to people complaining about the previously DLS available, Packaged assets, which would become missing dependencies if they did not have the corresponding DLC, particularly where the upversioned packaged assets were used. N3V obviously did not think through or plan well enough for this eventuality. In most cases once a packaged asset is used to build a free DLS route, it will result in missing dependencies. The only way around this is if creators of free DLS routes restrict themselves to using only DLS assets, which can be done by either using filters in surveyor eg. Built-in = False, Payware = False, Packaged = False, Locally Modified = False, utilising only Base and DLS assets, or by having a separate install, just for building, with no DLC which also limits the asset selection to Base or DLS.
If all freeware DLS route builders followed this, packaged assets would be less of a problem for everyone and would mostly bypass N3Vs nearsightedness.
Just my thoughts.
cheers
Graeme

grazlash said:

The only way around this is if creators of free DLS routes restrict themselves to using only DLS assets

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, an asset that is on the DLS today can be included tomorrow in a DLC...

HPL said:

Unfortunately, an asset that is on the DLS today can be included tomorrow in a DLC...

Click to expand...

That is true to a certain extent, the original DLS asset is still on the DLS in 99% of cases. I recently deleted over 20 payware routes and 99% of the assets changed to "available for download" and those that weren't were not critical.

grazlash said:

N3V changed the way payware was presented to us some time ago. Originally the asset were contained in several SCxxx folders and it was when the change was made to roll everything into a single .tzarc file that we began to encounter "packaged" assets. As route creators used DLS assets in more and more DLC routes, whether free or payware, the problem arose with many popular DLS assets becoming packaged and seemingly unavailable. This coupled with the gold and old silver class subscription offerings led to people complaining about the previously DLS available, Packaged assets, which would become missing dependencies if they did not have the corresponding DLC, particularly where the upversioned packaged assets were used. N3V obviously did not think through or plan well enough for this eventuality. In most cases once a packaged asset is used to build a free DLS route, it will result in missing dependencies. The only way around this is if creators of free DLS routes restrict themselves to using only DLS assets, which can be done by either using filters in surveyor eg. Built-in = False, Payware = False, Packaged = False, Locally Modified = False, utilising only Base and DLS assets, or by having a separate install, just for building, with no DLC which also limits the asset selection to Base or DLS.
If all freeware DLS route builders followed this, packaged assets would be less of a problem for everyone and would mostly bypass N3Vs nearsightedness.
Just my thoughts.
cheers
Graeme

Click to expand...

I have done that , attempted to remove all packaged items, and then, a year or so later a whole lot of the assets are now packaged.Conversely, perhaps all the payware route makers should use ONLY assets they have made themselves in their routes and then us freeware route makers would not have all the hassle of trying to keep up .
There really is no solution as long as you have packaging, this problem will exist. Why all the assets can't just reside on the DLS is beyond me, DLC is a right royal pain in the butt and is a blight on anyone who tries to create freeware routes. As I've said before, I may well stop making freeware routes because of it as its such a pain to navigate .

Hi All
All DLC packs created/packaged in the 3 years use the new TCCP 2.0 system for packaging assets. This system marks everything as 'packaged', except those assets the creator specifies in TCCP as being payware (those specific assets are then payware encrypted, and marked as payware).

We hope to repackage older DLC packs at some point, however at the current time any DLC packs packaged before the TCCP2.0 system was introduced in July 2020 won't follow this system as they have not been re-packaged to the newer package format. This means that older packages (including all DLC packs for TANE) will use the older system, which automatically marked asset as 'payware' depending on if that exact asset was detected on the DLS (so if an update to a DLS asset was in the package but wasn't on the DLS, it would have been marked as payware). If a creator updates a DLC pack, it will be updated using TCCP2.0, and as such this should in most cases solve the status issue of assets (so long as the creator correctly marks their payware assets in the TCCP project).

Unfortunately as TANE is no longer actively supported by us, DLC packs in TANE won't be updated; any updates would be for TRS19 or TRS22 (depending on which version the creator is using to create/submit the update).

Regards
Zec

OK, but it seems from a database perspective that the ASSET should have the status tag, so why should that be version specific? If the "Status" tag for an asset changes from "payware" to "packaged", shouldn't it change in every version?

I completely agree with you "Forester1" N3V were more than happy to use freeware from third party websites and lable them as "Installed Payware". So what if TANE is no longer supported DLC packs should be updated to 'Packaged' more like N3V dont care and cant be bothered but N3V can be bothered helping themselves to freeware and labeling as
"Installed Payware" I quite frankly find N3Vs response to this as being quite appalling.

poolboy said:

I completely agree with you "Forester1" N3V were more than happy to use freeware from third party websites and lable them as "Installed Payware". So what if TANE is no longer supported DLC packs should be updated to 'Packaged' more like N3V dont care and cant be bothered but N3V can be bothered helping themselves to freeware and labeling as
"Installed Payware" I quite frankly find N3Vs response to this as being quite appalling.

Click to expand...

And N3V will politely point you to the clause in the upload agreement that essentially gives them the right to do whatever they please with DLS assets. I don't recall any instance of N3V pirating assets from third party websites.
In regards to packaged assets, be careful what you wish for! Packaged assets are the bane of freeware route creators.

To that point, it does seem odd that even the simplest assets in payware are forever frozen from other use, but my question above was more technical, as "Packaged" is an actual field in the database, and I assume assets are records with the given fields. At least that's how it looks in CM. If so, I don't see how an asset could be "packaged" in one version and still "payware" in another version if the status field is a database attribute of the asset itself.
Also, as Grazlash mentions, being packaged obviously doesn't mean available as freeware, so it makes me wonder about the whole point of Zec's post. It really isn't going to change the availability of any assets.