Route - Session Concept

[lockheed02]

Perhaps someone could enlighten me about the current Route - Session concept.
When you created a session on someone else's route (e.g. from DLS or DLC), you simply got into the route, hit "Create Session", did your session settings and simply saved. Your session used to be bound to the route by default (provided you not messed with anything of the route itself).
In some cases you've got prompted when saving your new session, if you would like to save route and session, and you simply selected the "Only session" option and things were fine too.

Now in RC build I've got a route from someone and when I try to make a session on is route, I just "Create Session" - "Edit session" in Surveyor and give the session a nice name. When I want to save/save as, I am prompted with a nice pop up but the only option that is valid is "Save route and session". In effect, I have a clone of the route with my session bound to it. Unless I cheat and change the map kuid of my session I cannot create sessions for that route.
As route building is not my expertise, if this is not a bug, I suspect this is a kind of protection mechanism/feature? How is it set up? I might have missed some documentation about a new authorization concept ...

Thanks for any clarification

Lockheed
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[pware]

Using build 116492 (TRS22 latest beta), I just followed your methodology with a new route I downloaded from the DLS specifically for testing your problem.

I selected the route, selected View Sessions and there were no sessions available. I clicked Create Session and proceeded to add assets making sure that the session layer was the active layer.

I issued the Save command and the only save options that appeared were "Overwrite existing session" and "Create new session".

After saving I exited Surveyor and reloaded the new route and new session and continued editing the Session layer. I repeated the save command and again the above options were the only ones that appeared.

There is a Trainz Wiki page that goes into all the complexities of Routes and Sessions that may provide some solutions - see https://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/Route_and_Session_Basics

 

[lockheed02]

Thank you pware. That's great and matches my expectation. It also seems to work for me (116492) for routes from DLS. Re-reading my post and re-testing i can confirm the routes from DLS really work like you described. Apologies for my unprecise phrasing.
Maybe the difference is that I got this particular route via cdp and that's why I assumed there might be a new feature.
Perhaps something is just ... different ... or borked with this route.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WxEwSAn3r9Z7nsbIvE1C4Sh84i3PJ8sf/view?usp=sharing

I'll study the article in depth again tomorrow, perhaps I overlooked something.
Thanky again!

Lockheed
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[pware]

Good to hear. The thought did occur to me that you may have been editing a route layer and this would certainly bring up the request to save both the route and session.

 

[Tony_Hilliam]

It's more likely that you edited something in the route layer causing the save route prompt.

 

[pitkin]

This has been mentioned many times. My observations indicate that there are some routes that just behave this way. You can simply add a blade of grass in the session layer and it demands a route save. Check to see if the created session works on the original route. If so, just delete the new route.

 

[Tony_Hilliam]

Texturing is a route layer update, as is any ground layer edits. Effect layers are also part of the ground layer so will cause a route update.

 

[pitkin]

Texturing is a route layer update, as is any ground layer edits. Effect layers are also part of the ground layer so will cause a route update.

I am talking about grass assets. It was just an example. For certain routes, the same thing happens with trees, for instance.

 

[pware]

I am talking about grass assets. It was just an example. For certain routes, the same thing happens with trees, for instance.

I place all tree and grass assets in route layers - a Grass Layer and a Tree Layer. I also place platforms and station buildings in their own route layer with a separate route layer for platform objects (seats, station name signs, potted plants, light poles, etc). This makes it easier to temporarily lock and/or hide objects to get them "out of the way" so other objects can be placed on or near them.

My session layers contain all the consists plus any scenery objects that I want to appear in that session but not in the others.

It is all too easy, especially in Surveyor 1.0 (or Surveyor Classic), to forget which layer you are working in (the "active layer") when you are adding scenery assets. Fortunately the Bulk Asset Update/Replace tool can be used to move them, en masse, from one layer to another (except for spline assets where it can be a real PITA). In Surveyor 2.0 the layer pallets/panel will show you which is the active later where you are working - if you remember to check it. I usually solve this problem by locking all layers except the one I am working in - a trick I learned using graphics programs.

If, after editing ONLY a session (and/or session layers), I get a save dialogue box asking me to save the route as well as the session then I know that I have altered something in a route layer or a route data item (terrain, texture, ground effects, lat/long, water, snow. altitude, etc). I have yet to experience a situation where this is not the case.

 

[lockheed02]

Thanks for all the input. It occurs to me that this is route specific and something might be borked there. I only changed the name of the session nothing else. And then hit "Save". But I noticed some ghost rolling stock cars on the route that were not to be supposed there and are in places that is not meant for cars (like hidden and flying in the air, some you can grab, some not, you can only find them with CRTL+F in Vehicles or consist tab). Maybe the route had some accidents in its development past...

 

[Tony_Hilliam]

It's quite possible that some dodgy train car data is in a route layer and being "moved" to the session layer when saving thereby triggering the route save. Or something saved in a certain build in the past that is treated differently now.
If anyone finds a simple, reproducable test case please send in a bug report.

 

[pitkin]

Tony,
Here is an example.
Open in surveyor,
create new layer "trees".
In that layer, add a tree.

Demands save of route and session.

<kuid:126090:100411> MRR:The South Park Line

 

[pware]

Here is an example.
Open in surveyor,
create new layer "trees".
In that layer, add a tree.

Demands save of route and session.

<kuid:126090:100411> MRR:The South Park Line

I just tried that after downloading and installing MRR:The South Park Line into TRS22 and, after adding a tree to a new Tree layer in the Session Layer Group, a save command did indeed result in a request to save both the route and session.

This can happen when saving an older build route using a Trainz version with a much higher build number due to major differences such as the map files, etc, between the two builds. So I tried this by loading another route with the same build number (4.5) and repeating the exercise. In this case the change only resulted in a request to save the new session, not both the route and session.

So I would have to conclude that the MRR:The South Park Line has something different that is causing this issue - its 13 unknown assets could be a factor.

EDIT: as a further test I installed the route into Trainz Plus (build 114800). The install had the same 13 unknown assets and the same result on adding and editing a session layer.

 

[pware]

Further to my above post.

In TRS22 I saved the edited route and session (as a new route and session with the word "Clone" added to their names), exited TRS22 and then opened CM. I noticed that the new route is still shown in red ("faulty") with "Missing dependencies" as I expect it would, but the new session is not showing as faulty despite having a faulty dependency (the route). Is this normal? Previously all sessions that had a faulty route as their dependency were shown as faulty as well, or has this changed?

I just checked using Trainz Plus (114800) and can confirm that both the cloned route and session were shown in red with "Missing dependencies".

EDIT: Bug report submitted.

 

[lockheed02]

Thanks. I just tried MRR route in my Trainz+ and I can confirm - this is basically the behavior I am experiencing with my route/session.

Lockheed
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[brucem56]

Also occurs with the new version of Indiana Western 1970's by bbarnes005

I selected create session, added a consist, tried saving as but only option is to save route. Matters not whether you select save or save as.