Surveyor 2.0 feedback thread

[pware]

In the classic surveyor version this is very easy because the track splines always remain visible even when you are in the object spline mode.

In S2.0 the track spline points are not visible Am I missing something here?

Paul you are not alone there and no, you are not missing something. I also drop back into Classic when I need to clearly see all the track (or spline) circles. But I also love the "clean" view of a scene that is not "clogged up" with them. Hopefully, the devs will come up with a workable compromise.

[ZyxwvU]

And I like the new, clean view. The circles made me crazy, especially on more complex parts. When it comes to the catenary, the real-world catenary should zig-zag over the track. In some countries, only the contact wire does the zig-zag, and the assets reproduce that. In other countries, both the top and bottom wire does the zigzag, and you don't position you spline in the middle of the track anyway.

My thought what would really help here (irrelevant to S20 itself): ability to define a single attachment point inside the pylon/hanger asset, so that you could simply attach the wire from both sides. It would automatically snap to the correct position, and render correctly. Some catenary assets for Trainz attempt to replicate this idea by providing two attachment points very close to each other and an invisible spline between them. Unfortunately, then you can have small gaps between two segments of the wires, because of the way Trainz renders splines. Anyway, I would really appreciate every improvement that would reduce the burden of hanging the catenary. S20 definitely helps with that, but not enough. You must still manually position every single point and waste hours on it.

But going back to S20. I have one suggestion that I think I posted a couple of months ago already.



After 7 months of working exclusively with Surveyor 2.0, I can say that those two tool options should really be active with Placement Tool and you place objects. Reasons why:

- Objects do have height and rotation, which is editable in other places, such as "Information box", so we can control it.
- "Tool options" occupy so large area, it's very prominent and it's a waste of space, if it remains unused.
- for most of the time, you want to place objects that do not have 0 degree rotation, unless you build a 100 km of perfectly straight train line oriented in a very specific direction
- it took me approximately 3 months, before I discovered all the tricks, keyboard shortcuts and techniques to combine various tools to build stuff in the rotation I want: Ctrl+click on object combination, Infoboxes, typing the information.
- it's counter-intuitive for the newcomers not to have this active. https://youtu.be/ZgfNbqpQYyI?t=1620 - here you have a part of the video of one of the people I know where he tries to use S20 for the first time, and tries to change the height of the object. The video is in Polish, but it's possible to notice which tools he tries to use (and that he tries to use the wrong ones). I provide some translation:
* "OK, my track is elevated by 20 cm, so I'd like to elevate my gantry by 20 cm, too. Yes, I'd like... But... how? To do that... automatically? "
* "Well, we can type it in here [types into 'Focus' text boxes, which has misleading translation, by the way]... 0 point 2. Why doesn't it work. 0 point 2 enter. And if I type 1... it's still 0"
* "... and if now I type 0 point 2... still doesn't work..... ech... it displays the height over there... there's that rectangle to manipulate... 0 point 2... nothing. Interesting... okay, I think I need to sit a bit more on it."
* second attempt 2 minutes later, about "Tool options": https://youtu.be/ZgfNbqpQYyI?t=1967
* "OK, I'm stubborn, I want to elevate it SOMEHOW by 20 cm. I know I can raise it with the gizmo, no problem. You see, 0.14, 0.26, but I want perfectly 0.2... it doesn't work too well. OK, here we have."
* "I really want not to look all the time here at the left side [at the "Info" box], what height I have.... ooohhh! Here we have the height editor!!! [discovers "Tool options", everything greyed out]... hmm... I want 0 point 2... nothing... no way, guys. I'm really wondering why do I have actually this information over there, why do I need all this box. Because I was really convinced that we can use it to set the height exactly there".
- when I tried S20 for the first time a year ago... I also tried to set the rotation in "Tool options", ending up with "hmmm... it doesn't work... but why?"

Please tell me what you think of it.

[Paul_Bert]

ZyxwvU stated in post 29 above: "And I like the new, clean view. The circles made me crazy, especially on more complex parts. When it comes to the catenary, the real-world catenary should zig-zag over the track. In some countries, only the contact wire does the zig-zag, and the assets reproduce that. In other countries, both the top and bottom wire does the zigzag, and you don't position you spline in the middle of the track anyway."

Actually, that may be true for Catenary wire which use pantographs for the power pickup to the vehicle. But for trolley cars, like the PCC which was common in the US, the contact wire ran as close to the center of the track as possible. The trolley poles had a small wheel that ran along the trolley wire. The trolley pole pivoted on the top of the trolley wire to stay in alignment with the trolley wire. In the US where PCC trolley cars were used, we called the wire "trolley wire" and not catenary.

[ZyxwvU]

OK, you got the point. In Poland, any trolley poles were replaced with pantographs very early in the history of public transport, so I completely forgot that they exist when writing the post.

In pantographs, the zig-zagging prevents cutting a row in the pantograph slide over time due to the friction. In Poland, the norm is - if I remember correctly - 15 cm to the left, then 15 cm to the right, so it's clearly visible when you drive. On the tram networks, where the pylons are much closer one to another, this zig-zagging is also well-visible from the surrounding grounds and streets.

One solution is adding surveyor-only templates to the hanger assets, so that it is much easier to position everything. But this requires the asset authors to think about them when they create their work.

[JCitron]

OK, you got the point. In Poland, any trolley poles were replaced with pantographs very early in the history of public transport, so I completely forgot that they exist when writing the post.

In pantographs, the zig-zagging prevents cutting a row in the pantograph slide over time due to the friction. In Poland, the norm is - if I remember correctly - 15 cm to the left, then 15 cm to the right, so it's clearly visible when you drive. On the tram networks, where the pylons are much closer one to another, this zig-zagging is also well-visible from the surrounding grounds and streets.

One solution is adding surveyor-only templates to the hanger assets, so that it is much easier to position everything. But this requires the asset authors to think about them when they create their work.

Alterr made some catenary that zig zags. You may find his content on Trainz.de, but I'm not sure if it has been transferred to the new site.

I understand your frustrations though with the interface when it comes to doing things like adjusting the height of various assets. Clicking on the asset and then adjusting the height requires that extra step of ensuring that height is adjusted and not the ground. The tool should switch automatically based on the context and not require thought or intervention on our part to ensure that we're doing the right thing.

[Kacperkgl]

- it's counter-intuitive for the newcomers not to have this active. https://youtu.be/ZgfNbqpQYyI?t=1620 - here you have a part of the video of one of the people I know where he tries to use S20 for the first time, and tries to change the height of the object. The video is in Polish, but it's possible to notice which tools he tries to use (and that he tries to use the wrong ones). I provide some translation:
* "OK, my track is elevated by 20 cm, so I'd like to elevate my gantry by 20 cm, too. Yes, I'd like... But... how? To do that... automatically? "
* "Well, we can type it in here [types into 'Focus' text boxes, which has misleading translation, by the way]... 0 point 2. Why doesn't it work. 0 point 2 enter. And if I type 1... it's still 0"
* "... and if now I type 0 point 2... still doesn't work..... ech... it displays the height over there... there's that rectangle to manipulate... 0 point 2... nothing. Interesting... okay, I think I need to sit a bit more on it."
* second attempt 2 minutes later, about "Tool options": https://youtu.be/ZgfNbqpQYyI?t=1967
* "OK, I'm stubborn, I want to elevate it SOMEHOW by 20 cm. I know I can raise it with the gizmo, no problem. You see, 0.14, 0.26, but I want perfectly 0.2... it doesn't work too well. OK, here we have."
* "I really want not to look all the time here at the left side [at the "Info" box], what height I have.... ooohhh! Here we have the height editor!!! [discovers "Tool options", everything greyed out]... hmm... I want 0 point 2... nothing... no way, guys. I'm really wondering why do I have actually this information over there, why do I need all this box. Because I was really convinced that we can use it to set the height exactly there".
- when I tried S20 for the first time a year ago... I also tried to set the rotation in "Tool options", ending up with "hmmm... it doesn't work... but why?"

I'm the author of this video, and I still don't understand this window showing compass/cursor position information. I've been a surveyor for about 15 years and believe me, I don't know anyone who needs it. This window is very unintuitive. The first place should be information about the position of the object, not the cursor. The second thing that you can't see at first glance - that it can be developed.


Just as unintuitive and very strange is the system of turning the trackside to the other side of the track. Either an additional icon with such an add-on or a keyboard shortcut would be useful. I see that there is also still a problem with placing two tracksides in the same place - in fact you can't do it, you have to move it. In Poland, we use pylons and hangers separately - so it's two tracksides in one place, and if there was a problem for 15 years, it still is.


And finally - as you can see my English is not great. Congratulations for translating the entire S2.0 into Polish. (sorry - it's ironic). Despite the fact that for so many years a man knows what he used, what he is looking for - it is impossible to find it. The truth is - it needs to be explained again!

[pware]

I still don't understand this window showing compass/cursor position information. I've been a surveyor for about 15 years and believe me, I don't know anyone who needs it. This window is very unintuitive. The first place should be information about the position of the object, not the cursor. The second thing that you can't see at first glance - that it can be developed.

Speaking as someone who does use the compass/cursor information, I find it to be quite useful. I use it to get the height of a point (the compass position) from the terrain and transfer that height to the Tool Options Palette Height value. See https://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/...tment:_Heights

Just as unintuitive and very strange is the system of turning the trackside to the other side of the track. Either an additional icon with such an add-on or a keyboard shortcut would be useful.

Many of the controls that were once separate icons in the different tool tabs in Surveyor Classic are now in the Context Menu of each object which makes them easier to find. Yes, a keyboard shortcut would be ideal and N3V did state that the Surveyor 2.0 interface is still in development and that more keyboard shortcuts will, eventually, be added.

And finally - as you can see my English is not great. Congratulations for translating the entire S2.0 into Polish. (sorry - it's ironic). Despite the fact that for so many years a man knows what he used, what he is looking for - it is impossible to find it. The truth is - it needs to be explained again!

Your English is not bad - better than some who have English as their native language.

Change, anywhere and everywhere, takes time to get used to. I have had my battles with major software programs which suddenly changed their User Interface but, in all cases, I eventually adapted. Surveyor 2.0 is no different. Now I rarely have to drop back into Surveyor Classic to perform any tasks.

My thoughts.

[Kacperkgl]

Speaking as someone who does use the compass/cursor information, I find it to be quite useful. I use it to get the height of a point (the compass position) from the terrain and transfer that height to the Tool Options Palette Height value. See https://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/...tment:_Heights

All in all, okay, you're right, point to you, but I still think it's counter-intuitive and this information shouldn't be the first, no information about cursor.

Many of the controls that were once separate icons in the different tool tabs in Surveyor Classic are now in the Context Menu of each object which makes them easier to find. Yes, a keyboard shortcut would be ideal and N3V did state that the Surveyor 2.0 interface is still in development and that more keyboard shortcuts will, eventually, be added.

On the subject of trackside rotation - it takes longer now, significantly longer. Previously (in Classic Surveyor), all I had to do was select the rotation options and click on the trackside, and click to the next trackside. Currently (in S2.0) I have to select each trackside, then expand the menu (e.g. with the T key), then select the options, click. If S2.0 is to be complete - it requires immediate change.

Change, anywhere and everywhere, takes time to get used to. I have had my battles with major software programs which suddenly changed their User Interface but, in all cases, I eventually adapted. Surveyor 2.0 is no different. Now I rarely have to drop back into Surveyor Classic to perform any tasks.

Looking at what it looks like - I'm for yes, but it can't be said that it is currently a sufficient, complete tool, because going back to the Classic Surveyor is the norm.

[G.M.]

Repeat repeat


A user that actually uses the program and makes great routes, proposes something
or points out where it can be improved, followed by pware and tony defending the status quo
of the current WIP phase it is in. This is counter productive.


The Lead game designer (there should be such a pro) designs based on what users want
the CEO sets the main path/timeline and makes sure the money comes in
the programmer, programs what the Lead game designer asks for


All starts with good base concept, not bits and pieces thrown together and defended


S2 will be great in a few years, there is no hurry whatsoever, cause S1 functions fine
an interface should need NO manual at all if designed well

[pware]

A user that actually uses the program and makes great routes, proposes something
or points out where it can be improved, followed by pware and tony defending the status quo
of the current WIP phase it is in. This is counter productive.

I will stick to the facts of what was posted and what I replied. The poster gave an opinion (which he is perfectly entitled to do).

I still don't understand this window showing compass/cursor position information. I've been a surveyor for about 15 years and believe me, I don't know anyone who needs it.

I responded that I used this feature. Nothing contentious or controversial, just a statement of what I do with the feature.

I find it to be quite useful. I use it to get the height of a point (the compass position) from the terrain and transfer that height to the Tool Options Palette Height value.

He responded ...

All in all, okay, you're right, point to you,

How is that "not helpful"? Do you only want opinions and comments that support your views (whatever they are)? I will leave it at that.

[capdiamont]

Repeat repeat


A user that actually uses the program and makes great routes, proposes something
or points out where it can be improved, followed by pware and tony defending the status quo
of the current WIP phase it is in. This is counter productive.


The Lead game designer (there should be such a pro) designs based on what users want
the CEO sets the main path/timeline and makes sure the money comes in
the programmer, programs what the Lead game designer asks for


All starts with good base concept, not bits and pieces thrown together and defended


S2 will be great in a few years, there is no hurry whatsoever, cause S1 functions fine
an interface should need NO manual at all if designed well

I’m sorry but Pware actually uses the program, provides lots of helpful advice in forums and in the wiki. As they use the program, they are entitled to put forth their views. Not everyone is going to have the same views.

[pware]

The S20 document at https://docs.trainzsimulator.com/doc...apbook-palette states ...

By renaming a Scrapbook, it will automatically be pinned.

I have found this is not the case. I have renamed a new scrapbook and pressed the enter key and it was not pinned. I repeated the exercise several times with new scrapbooks with the same result.

What does work is either of:-

• Click the Pin icon, or
• Click the > icon to move to the next scrapbook. When you return to the new scrapbook it will be pinned.

I do not know if this is a "bug" or simply an error in the documentation.

[Tony_Hilliam]

Currently (in S2.0) I have to select each trackside, then expand the menu (e.g. with the T key), then select the options, click.

In S20, use Shift-L-click to select multiple trackside objects, then "T" > Rotate trackside. This changes all selected items in one click.

I have renamed a new scrapbook and pressed the enter key and it was not pinned.

Yes, looks like a bug. As a workaround for now I suggest clicking the Pin once you've renamed the scrapbook.

[ZyxwvU]

For me, the focus information is neutral, I don't need it too much for my flow, but others may find it useful. I think that over here, the root cause here was incorrect Polish translation that gave no clue that it's about the compass position (and which I fixed in crowdin a couple of days ago, together with many other texts. Now it should be much cleaner, once it gets to the game).

... but we still have this big "Tool options" that is one of the first places that the new users see... and useful options for height and rotation are greyed out, when placing objects. Instead, the user has to expand and figure out that the much smaller "Information" window is not only for displaying things, because some edit boxes are actually editable. "Information" window allows making many great tricks with the rotation and height, but you need to take time to understand the potential behind it.

Example flow for putting lamps rotated by 30 degrees:

1. Select lamp asset from the asset list
2. Put some lamps with 0 rotation in "Placement" mode
3. Select all of them
4. Use "Information" box to edit the rotation angle
5. Move all lamps to the desired places

Another one:

1. Select lamp asset from the asset list
2. Put one lamp and rotate it with gizmo
3. Move it with pressed "Ctrl" to copy it

None of them are obvious for a person who uses S2.0 for the first time. And the obvious flow, when you look at the big "Tool options" window could be:

1. Select lamp asset from the asset list
2. Type "30" in the "Rotation" in "Tool options" in "Placement" mode, which is very well-visible for everyone
3. Start putting lamps rotated by 30 degrees

Personally, I find the new interface extremely productive. At the same time, some options are a bit misleading (especially if you are a new user) or the full potential is unused. "Being productive" does not have to mean that the interface has to be hard to learn.

[pware]

Your examples are correct. Your proposed solution ("when you look at the big "Tool options" window could be:") does make sense.

Part of the "problem" is that the Tool Options Palette is actually more of a Brush Options Palette. Its icons only become active (change colour to "Gold") when you are using the various Brush tool options. But some of them do work on assets as well as brushes but their icons do not change colour to Gold to show that they are active.

I reported this as a "bug" a few weeks ago. The response I received explained why this is the case. From N3V QA.

The height value you enter into Tool Options applies to the selected assets. It does not apply to the Free Move Tool. It is this reason why it is not a gold highlight, otherwise a user may get confused and think the Free Move Tool, with a 5m Height setting, would impact all the assets by 5m when clicking and moving them (which it does not).

I agree that the new interface is extremely productive. The confusion for new users is understandable. Both you and I have been using the original interface for many years now. I still recall the confusion and the learning curve that I experienced when I first started using Trainz and its Surveyor interface, now called "Surveyor Classic". S2.0 is far more sophisticated than the original.

Improvements to the S2.0 interface can still be made, and I hope will be coming. It is not perfect and never will be (nothing is).

My thoughts.