capdiamont
Active member
Thank you Pware. I’m grateful for such a wonderful guide. I just need to wait until it comes out for my system. Thanks again.
Surveyor 2.0 feedback thread
- Thread starter weevil
- Start date
Working my way through the list there is (so far) one item that is giving contrary advice.
From my experiments and observations
Thanks for the complement capdiamont, it is appreciated.
From my experiments and observations
- both the Ctrl and the Alt keys work with Left-click in selecting an object but Left-click also works by itself without using the Alt and Crtl keys
- the tooltip appears without needing to hold down the Alt key
Thanks for the complement capdiamont, it is appreciated.
MichelLmbrt
Member
Thnak you very much ! That was missing.
Tony_Hilliam
Trainz Plus - enjoy Trainz from just 20 cents a da
The "Copy" menu option is meant to copy the asset details to your clipboard (so that you can paste into notepad for example). It appears there is a bug so thanks for finding that.
Regarding the Alt key, use this when the Eyedropper tool is not selected. So if you're using Free Move, holding Alt will activate the Eyedropper tool, but releasing Alt will take you back to your previously selected tool.
Regarding the Alt key, use this when the Eyedropper tool is not selected. So if you're using Free Move, holding Alt will activate the Eyedropper tool, but releasing Alt will take you back to your previously selected tool.
Thank you, now got it.
Hi everybody. I put this in here as I'm not sure where it could be best.
Just a suggestion about S20 and the picklists.
For the route I'm working I created a pick list so to use always the same items instead of have a multiplication of similar items around. Problem is that the number of items in the list is not little (abt 500 different items) and their names not always self explaning so I have to go through tons of them to find the one I'm looking for. Could it be possibile to be able to use the "scenery", "spline", "tracks" and so on selection withing a pick list filter?
Thanks for kind answer and help.
Just a suggestion about S20 and the picklists.
For the route I'm working I created a pick list so to use always the same items instead of have a multiplication of similar items around. Problem is that the number of items in the list is not little (abt 500 different items) and their names not always self explaning so I have to go through tons of them to find the one I'm looking for. Could it be possibile to be able to use the "scenery", "spline", "tracks" and so on selection withing a pick list filter?
Thanks for kind answer and help.
Each individual picklist is actually a filter category - like "Scenery Splines" or "Track Objects". So if you have selected one of your picklists in the Assets Palette Filter dropdown list then selecting one of the Filter Icons (e.g. the "Track" icon) would cancel the picklist selection. So the answer is no.
But not all is lost.
You can still select a picklist and then enter a text search string into the text box. For example typing "track" would filter your picklist items to only show those with "track" in their names or (I suspect) their descriptions.
Tony_Hilliam
Trainz Plus - enjoy Trainz from just 20 cents a da
I suggest splitting your picklist into scenery types. You can have as many picklists as you like, and objects can be in multiple lists, so there's plenty of flexibility there.
That is the method I use. I have over 30 picklists organised according to content types. For example:-
Rocks
Farm Buildings
Fences & Walls
Grasses
Industies
etc
With just a few picklists that cover a wider variety of commonly used assets in the current project.
I now use S2.0 for my route building. There are several situations where I still find the classic version better.
One of these situations is where I am laying track and then adding a catenary wire. I like to align my contact wire on top of the track splines because the wire will follow the track around curves. In the classic surveyor version this is very easy because the track splines always remain visible even when you are in the object spline mode.
In S2.0 the track spline points are not visible when adding object spline contact wire. Both the track spline points and the contact wire points are visible when in the free move tool that let you move objects. Am I missing something here?
One of these situations is where I am laying track and then adding a catenary wire. I like to align my contact wire on top of the track splines because the wire will follow the track around curves. In the classic surveyor version this is very easy because the track splines always remain visible even when you are in the object spline mode.
In S2.0 the track spline points are not visible when adding object spline contact wire. Both the track spline points and the contact wire points are visible when in the free move tool that let you move objects. Am I missing something here?
Paul you are not alone there and no, you are not missing something. I also drop back into Classic when I need to clearly see all the track (or spline) circles. But I also love the "clean" view of a scene that is not "clogged up" with them. Hopefully, the devs will come up with a workable compromise.
And I like the new, clean view. The circles made me crazy, especially on more complex parts. When it comes to the catenary, the real-world catenary should zig-zag over the track. In some countries, only the contact wire does the zig-zag, and the assets reproduce that. In other countries, both the top and bottom wire does the zigzag, and you don't position you spline in the middle of the track anyway.
My thought what would really help here (irrelevant to S20 itself): ability to define a single attachment point inside the pylon/hanger asset, so that you could simply attach the wire from both sides. It would automatically snap to the correct position, and render correctly. Some catenary assets for Trainz attempt to replicate this idea by providing two attachment points very close to each other and an invisible spline between them. Unfortunately, then you can have small gaps between two segments of the wires, because of the way Trainz renders splines. Anyway, I would really appreciate every improvement that would reduce the burden of hanging the catenary. S20 definitely helps with that, but not enough. You must still manually position every single point and waste hours on it.
But going back to S20. I have one suggestion that I think I posted a couple of months ago already.
After 7 months of working exclusively with Surveyor 2.0, I can say that those two tool options should really be active with Placement Tool and you place objects. Reasons why:
- Objects do have height and rotation, which is editable in other places, such as "Information box", so we can control it.
- "Tool options" occupy so large area, it's very prominent and it's a waste of space, if it remains unused.
- for most of the time, you want to place objects that do not have 0 degree rotation, unless you build a 100 km of perfectly straight train line oriented in a very specific direction
- it took me approximately 3 months, before I discovered all the tricks, keyboard shortcuts and techniques to combine various tools to build stuff in the rotation I want: Ctrl+click on object combination, Infoboxes, typing the information.
- it's counter-intuitive for the newcomers not to have this active. https://youtu.be/ZgfNbqpQYyI?t=1620 - here you have a part of the video of one of the people I know where he tries to use S20 for the first time, and tries to change the height of the object. The video is in Polish, but it's possible to notice which tools he tries to use (and that he tries to use the wrong ones). I provide some translation:
* "OK, my track is elevated by 20 cm, so I'd like to elevate my gantry by 20 cm, too. Yes, I'd like... But... how? To do that... automatically? "
* "Well, we can type it in here [types into 'Focus' text boxes, which has misleading translation, by the way]... 0 point 2. Why doesn't it work. 0 point 2 enter. And if I type 1... it's still 0"
* "... and if now I type 0 point 2... still doesn't work..... ech... it displays the height over there... there's that rectangle to manipulate... 0 point 2... nothing. Interesting... okay, I think I need to sit a bit more on it."
* second attempt 2 minutes later, about "Tool options": https://youtu.be/ZgfNbqpQYyI?t=1967
* "OK, I'm stubborn, I want to elevate it SOMEHOW by 20 cm. I know I can raise it with the gizmo, no problem. You see, 0.14, 0.26, but I want perfectly 0.2... it doesn't work too well. OK, here we have."
* "I really want not to look all the time here at the left side [at the "Info" box], what height I have.... ooohhh! Here we have the height editor!!! [discovers "Tool options", everything greyed out]... hmm... I want 0 point 2... nothing... no way, guys. I'm really wondering why do I have actually this information over there, why do I need all this box. Because I was really convinced that we can use it to set the height exactly there".
- when I tried S20 for the first time a year ago... I also tried to set the rotation in "Tool options", ending up with "hmmm... it doesn't work... but why?"
Please tell me what you think of it.
My thought what would really help here (irrelevant to S20 itself): ability to define a single attachment point inside the pylon/hanger asset, so that you could simply attach the wire from both sides. It would automatically snap to the correct position, and render correctly. Some catenary assets for Trainz attempt to replicate this idea by providing two attachment points very close to each other and an invisible spline between them. Unfortunately, then you can have small gaps between two segments of the wires, because of the way Trainz renders splines. Anyway, I would really appreciate every improvement that would reduce the burden of hanging the catenary. S20 definitely helps with that, but not enough. You must still manually position every single point and waste hours on it.
But going back to S20. I have one suggestion that I think I posted a couple of months ago already.
After 7 months of working exclusively with Surveyor 2.0, I can say that those two tool options should really be active with Placement Tool and you place objects. Reasons why:
- Objects do have height and rotation, which is editable in other places, such as "Information box", so we can control it.
- "Tool options" occupy so large area, it's very prominent and it's a waste of space, if it remains unused.
- for most of the time, you want to place objects that do not have 0 degree rotation, unless you build a 100 km of perfectly straight train line oriented in a very specific direction
- it took me approximately 3 months, before I discovered all the tricks, keyboard shortcuts and techniques to combine various tools to build stuff in the rotation I want: Ctrl+click on object combination, Infoboxes, typing the information.
- it's counter-intuitive for the newcomers not to have this active. https://youtu.be/ZgfNbqpQYyI?t=1620 - here you have a part of the video of one of the people I know where he tries to use S20 for the first time, and tries to change the height of the object. The video is in Polish, but it's possible to notice which tools he tries to use (and that he tries to use the wrong ones). I provide some translation:
* "OK, my track is elevated by 20 cm, so I'd like to elevate my gantry by 20 cm, too. Yes, I'd like... But... how? To do that... automatically? "
* "Well, we can type it in here [types into 'Focus' text boxes, which has misleading translation, by the way]... 0 point 2. Why doesn't it work. 0 point 2 enter. And if I type 1... it's still 0"
* "... and if now I type 0 point 2... still doesn't work..... ech... it displays the height over there... there's that rectangle to manipulate... 0 point 2... nothing. Interesting... okay, I think I need to sit a bit more on it."
* second attempt 2 minutes later, about "Tool options": https://youtu.be/ZgfNbqpQYyI?t=1967
* "OK, I'm stubborn, I want to elevate it SOMEHOW by 20 cm. I know I can raise it with the gizmo, no problem. You see, 0.14, 0.26, but I want perfectly 0.2... it doesn't work too well. OK, here we have."
* "I really want not to look all the time here at the left side [at the "Info" box], what height I have.... ooohhh! Here we have the height editor!!! [discovers "Tool options", everything greyed out]... hmm... I want 0 point 2... nothing... no way, guys. I'm really wondering why do I have actually this information over there, why do I need all this box. Because I was really convinced that we can use it to set the height exactly there".
- when I tried S20 for the first time a year ago... I also tried to set the rotation in "Tool options", ending up with "hmmm... it doesn't work... but why?"
Please tell me what you think of it.
ZyxwvU stated in post 29 above: "And I like the new, clean view. The circles made me crazy, especially on more complex parts. When it comes to the catenary, the real-world catenary should zig-zag over the track. In some countries, only the contact wire does the zig-zag, and the assets reproduce that. In other countries, both the top and bottom wire does the zigzag, and you don't position you spline in the middle of the track anyway."
Actually, that may be true for Catenary wire which use pantographs for the power pickup to the vehicle. But for trolley cars, like the PCC which was common in the US, the contact wire ran as close to the center of the track as possible. The trolley poles had a small wheel that ran along the trolley wire. The trolley pole pivoted on the top of the trolley wire to stay in alignment with the trolley wire. In the US where PCC trolley cars were used, we called the wire "trolley wire" and not catenary.
Actually, that may be true for Catenary wire which use pantographs for the power pickup to the vehicle. But for trolley cars, like the PCC which was common in the US, the contact wire ran as close to the center of the track as possible. The trolley poles had a small wheel that ran along the trolley wire. The trolley pole pivoted on the top of the trolley wire to stay in alignment with the trolley wire. In the US where PCC trolley cars were used, we called the wire "trolley wire" and not catenary.
OK, you got the point. In Poland, any trolley poles were replaced with pantographs very early in the history of public transport, so I completely forgot that they exist when writing the post.
In pantographs, the zig-zagging prevents cutting a row in the pantograph slide over time due to the friction. In Poland, the norm is - if I remember correctly - 15 cm to the left, then 15 cm to the right, so it's clearly visible when you drive. On the tram networks, where the pylons are much closer one to another, this zig-zagging is also well-visible from the surrounding grounds and streets.
One solution is adding surveyor-only templates to the hanger assets, so that it is much easier to position everything. But this requires the asset authors to think about them when they create their work.
In pantographs, the zig-zagging prevents cutting a row in the pantograph slide over time due to the friction. In Poland, the norm is - if I remember correctly - 15 cm to the left, then 15 cm to the right, so it's clearly visible when you drive. On the tram networks, where the pylons are much closer one to another, this zig-zagging is also well-visible from the surrounding grounds and streets.
One solution is adding surveyor-only templates to the hanger assets, so that it is much easier to position everything. But this requires the asset authors to think about them when they create their work.
Alterr made some catenary that zig zags. You may find his content on Trainz.de, but I'm not sure if it has been transferred to the new site.
I understand your frustrations though with the interface when it comes to doing things like adjusting the height of various assets. Clicking on the asset and then adjusting the height requires that extra step of ensuring that height is adjusted and not the ground. The tool should switch automatically based on the context and not require thought or intervention on our part to ensure that we're doing the right thing.
I'm the author of this video, and I still don't understand this window showing compass/cursor position information. I've been a surveyor for about 15 years and believe me, I don't know anyone who needs it. This window is very unintuitive. The first place should be information about the position of the object, not the cursor. The second thing that you can't see at first glance - that it can be developed.
Just as unintuitive and very strange is the system of turning the trackside to the other side of the track. Either an additional icon with such an add-on or a keyboard shortcut would be useful. I see that there is also still a problem with placing two tracksides in the same place - in fact you can't do it, you have to move it. In Poland, we use pylons and hangers separately - so it's two tracksides in one place, and if there was a problem for 15 years, it still is.
And finally - as you can see my English is not great. Congratulations for translating the entire S2.0 into Polish. (sorry - it's ironic). Despite the fact that for so many years a man knows what he used, what he is looking for - it is impossible to find it. The truth is - it needs to be explained again!
Speaking as someone who does use the compass/cursor information, I find it to be quite useful. I use it to get the height of a point (the compass position) from the terrain and transfer that height to the Tool Options Palette Height value. See https://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/How_to_Use_S20_Tools#Fine_Adjustment:_Heights
Many of the controls that were once separate icons in the different tool tabs in Surveyor Classic are now in the Context Menu of each object which makes them easier to find. Yes, a keyboard shortcut would be ideal and N3V did state that the Surveyor 2.0 interface is still in development and that more keyboard shortcuts will, eventually, be added.
Your English is not bad - better than some who have English as their native language.
Change, anywhere and everywhere, takes time to get used to. I have had my battles with major software programs which suddenly changed their User Interface but, in all cases, I eventually adapted. Surveyor 2.0 is no different. Now I rarely have to drop back into Surveyor Classic to perform any tasks.
My thoughts.
All in all, okay, you're right, point to you, but I still think it's counter-intuitive and this information shouldn't be the first, no information about cursor.
On the subject of trackside rotation - it takes longer now, significantly longer. Previously (in Classic Surveyor), all I had to do was select the rotation options and click on the trackside, and click to the next trackside. Currently (in S2.0) I have to select each trackside, then expand the menu (e.g. with the T key), then select the options, click. If S2.0 is to be complete - it requires immediate change.
Looking at what it looks like - I'm for yes, but it can't be said that it is currently a sufficient, complete tool, because going back to the Classic Surveyor is the norm.
Repeat repeat
A user that actually uses the program and makes great routes, proposes something
or points out where it can be improved, followed by pware and tony defending the status quo
of the current WIP phase it is in. This is counter productive.
The Lead game designer (there should be such a pro) designs based on what users want
the CEO sets the main path/timeline and makes sure the money comes in
the programmer, programs what the Lead game designer asks for
All starts with good base concept, not bits and pieces thrown together and defended
S2 will be great in a few years, there is no hurry whatsoever, cause S1 functions fine
an interface should need NO manual at all if designed well
A user that actually uses the program and makes great routes, proposes something
or points out where it can be improved, followed by pware and tony defending the status quo
of the current WIP phase it is in. This is counter productive.
The Lead game designer (there should be such a pro) designs based on what users want
the CEO sets the main path/timeline and makes sure the money comes in
the programmer, programs what the Lead game designer asks for
All starts with good base concept, not bits and pieces thrown together and defended
S2 will be great in a few years, there is no hurry whatsoever, cause S1 functions fine
an interface should need NO manual at all if designed well
I will stick to the facts of what was posted and what I replied. The poster gave an opinion (which he is perfectly entitled to do).
I responded that I used this feature. Nothing contentious or controversial, just a statement of what I do with the feature.
He responded ...
How is that "not helpful"? Do you only want opinions and comments that support your views (whatever they are)? I will leave it at that.