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All very interesting legal folderal, but how does it relate to what people do in a hobby? Or is this only of concern for payware producers and even then, isn't there a lower limit of income below which you're exempt from reporting? Like if you make a $1, is that reported? As for hours spent, I know some people that spend more time on knitting, do they have to drop their stitches after 48hrs too? And every other hobby or pastime we do for pleasure?...
Definitely one for the would be solicitors on the forum.
Bill
Hi Martinvk and everybody.Of this thread
Martinvk, My posting at #140 of this thread was purely directed at European payware content creators. Apologies if you feel I did not make that clear in that posting. However, within my posting at #125 of this thread, felt I did address the different positions of those who created content purely as a hobby to be free on release, as opposed to forum members who wish to derive some income from their content creation.
I did post the advice as here in United Kingdom and I believe amongst other European goverments there is a large tax "clampdown" campaign being carried out especially among self-employed people and those working in what is known as the "black economy". Many people are finding very large bills falling through their letterbox. Again Martin and other forum members, apologies if you feel I did not make myself clear.
I am in the office so I had better get back to work as we are up to our "eyeballs in it" with income tax to be paid on all we do
Bill
All very interesting legal folderal, but how does it relate to what people do in a hobby? Or is this only of concern for payware producers and even then, isn't there a lower limit of income below which you're exempt from reporting? Like if you make a $1, is that reported? As for hours spent, I know some people that spend more time on knitting, do they have to drop their stitches after 48hrs too? And every other hobby or pastime we do for pleasure?
Martinvk, My posting at #140 of this thread was purely directed at European payware content creators. Apologies if you feel I did not make that clear in that posting. However, within my posting at #125 of this thread, felt I did address the different positions of those who created content purely as a hobby to be free on release, as opposed to forum members who wish to derive some income from their content creation.
I did post the advice as here in United Kingdom and I believe amongst other European goverments there is a large tax "clampdown" campaign being carried out especially among self-employed people and those working in what is known as the "black economy". Many people are finding very large bills falling through their letterbox. Again Martin and other forum members, apologies if you feel I did not make myself clear.
I am in the office so I had better get back to work as we are up to our "eyeballs in it" with income tax to be paid on all we do
Bill
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Not a new thing Bill and they will find out. Going back a few years ago before the days of high speed broadband and file libraries that didn't mind hosting 400mb files, I used to put my MSTS routes out via CD-R. This was done "at cost" but nevertheless eventually attracted the attention of HM Customs and Excise who essentially demanded access to my property in order to inspect what I was doing. After explaining the concept and pointing out I was paying VAT not once but twice (when purchasing the materials and via SW Reg) they went away more or less satisfied. However it was quite a shock and a wake up call, not long after I handed over responsibility for CD distribution to UKTS (who are set up as a registered company) and from that point ceased to release any further work on CD.
So yes Martin, they are indeed interested in every little £1 or $1 that people make particularly if they can hit that at higher rate income tax (40% in the UK) or get VAT at 20% in the case of sales. I was lucky that it went the right way, but could easily have been left with a huge bill or even a prosecution and criminal record, particularly as I hadn't even bothered keeping comprehensive records. When money starts to change hands, even for something done in "spare" time, it's no longer a hobby - it's a business and/or occupation and anyone contemplating doing this needs to approach accordingly. Perhaps things are more relaxed in the USA or Australia regarding this sort of thing, but the common denominator of most governments and exchequers these days, is that if you are liable for tax they're going to want to collect it!
To ignore this aspect would be both naive and stupid.
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amigacooke
Well-known member
Nice try that one amigacooke, but not quite up to your usual standard
So by your own figures, the advice you gave to 1 in 10 was incorrect. Is that an acceptable margin of error in the industry?
As to our continental friends, lets hope they all read English and frequent this forum.
Just a final point, it's my understanding that European Directives have no standing in law unless legislation is passed by the sovereign state. Are you familiar enough with the relevant laws in each member state to be reasonably sure that the advice you are giving is accurate? Or perhaps a disclaimer would be wise?
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This discussion has made me look into the situation that exists here in Australia. Unlike Europe and the UK, we have the advantage of only having to deal with just a single set of taxation and workplace laws.
On the taxation side of things (from the Australian Tax Office web site) - I surmise that if you create a package for the DLC that is accepted for sale then it will depend on the volume of sales and frequency of any new DLC products you created as to whether or not you are "conducting a business" (which would be taxable) or "conducting a hobby" (not taxable). If DLC sales became a significant part of your income or you were producing a number of DLC packages at a regular rate during the year, then you would be considered to be "in business" and would have to register to pay the GST (our version of your VAT).
On the maximum work hours side (from the Australian Fairwork Ombudsmen web site) - there is a maximum number of hours per week that an employee can be expected to work by their employer - for full-time employees this is 38 hours per week. However, an employee can volunteer to work longer hours if they wish provided the additional hours are reasonable do not affect the health and safety of the employee - plus some other conditions. It says nothing about preventing someone from working 38 hours a week in a full-time job and then additional hours in a second or third job. It also says nothing about hours that may be spent working at a hobby, regardless of whether or not you receive any payment for that work.
Comparing this to the maze of regulations that seems to exist in Europe, I think I would rather be creating DLC content from here, not there.
On the taxation side of things (from the Australian Tax Office web site) - I surmise that if you create a package for the DLC that is accepted for sale then it will depend on the volume of sales and frequency of any new DLC products you created as to whether or not you are "conducting a business" (which would be taxable) or "conducting a hobby" (not taxable). If DLC sales became a significant part of your income or you were producing a number of DLC packages at a regular rate during the year, then you would be considered to be "in business" and would have to register to pay the GST (our version of your VAT).
On the maximum work hours side (from the Australian Fairwork Ombudsmen web site) - there is a maximum number of hours per week that an employee can be expected to work by their employer - for full-time employees this is 38 hours per week. However, an employee can volunteer to work longer hours if they wish provided the additional hours are reasonable do not affect the health and safety of the employee - plus some other conditions. It says nothing about preventing someone from working 38 hours a week in a full-time job and then additional hours in a second or third job. It also says nothing about hours that may be spent working at a hobby, regardless of whether or not you receive any payment for that work.
Comparing this to the maze of regulations that seems to exist in Europe, I think I would rather be creating DLC content from here, not there.
Hi everybody.
Amigacooke, I believe in the above you are referring to my posting at #140 of this thread where I stated that the British population represented 12.50 % of the total population of the European Union? The foregoing being correct, I believe your above quote of 1 in 10 would be inaccurate as the actual number of UK citizens affected by the British opt out would in fact be far less.
We would first of all have to take into account the hundreds of thousands that work in the transport industry (road, rail and air) along with other industries/occupations that cannot opt out of the working time directive under the legislation. Therefore, the number of workers who by percentage of UK working population that have the ability to opt out is very much reduced to considerably below your 1 in 10 stated.
The remainder of the British working population who can by industry or occupation enact their voluntary opt out do so by signing individual documentation either contained within their contract of employment or enacted as a separate record.
In the above, I would never be so disrespectful as to suggest that those who have enacted their right to opt out of the working time directive in regard to their employment, did not understand fully the implications of the document they were signing. Therefore, those who cannot opt out of the above directive are in the same position as virtually every other worker in the European Union mainland. Those who have opted out are fully aware of their position by way of the documentation given and signed by them.
Therefore, all persons of working age employed or self-employed within the EU are well aware (or should be) of their position with regards to the working time regulations. The foregoing was the reason I did not mention the British opt out in my posting at #104 of this thread, as those that have taken up the British opt out make up a very small minority (possibly well under the 1% quoted) of the European Union working population.
Point taken amigacooke, but anybody who has travelled in the EU will very quickly realise that the English language is very widely understood and accepted in many Euorapean countries. Should any forum member feel that the information should be more widely available in other languages then they can post on the specialised sections of this forum or in employment forums widely available throughout Europe.
Amigacooke, the working time directive was brought forward by the European Parliament and European commission in 1993. The directive was ratified by all the individual parliaments of the then member countries with the exception of the United Kingdom who was the only country to gain an opt out position from the legislation.
Since then all new member countries joining the union must ratify all major existing legislation and directives as a condition of joining. As you may be aware the European Commission and Parliament both rejected Turkey’s application to become a member with one of the grounds being that they would not be able to enforce EU employment legislation within the country.
However, my main reason for posting in this thread was to strengthen awareness among the many payware content creators on this forum in regard to employment regulations within Europe and the possible effects that could have on their activity.
Bill
Amigacooke, I believe in the above you are referring to my posting at #140 of this thread where I stated that the British population represented 12.50 % of the total population of the European Union? The foregoing being correct, I believe your above quote of 1 in 10 would be inaccurate as the actual number of UK citizens affected by the British opt out would in fact be far less.
We would first of all have to take into account the hundreds of thousands that work in the transport industry (road, rail and air) along with other industries/occupations that cannot opt out of the working time directive under the legislation. Therefore, the number of workers who by percentage of UK working population that have the ability to opt out is very much reduced to considerably below your 1 in 10 stated.
The remainder of the British working population who can by industry or occupation enact their voluntary opt out do so by signing individual documentation either contained within their contract of employment or enacted as a separate record.
In the above, I would never be so disrespectful as to suggest that those who have enacted their right to opt out of the working time directive in regard to their employment, did not understand fully the implications of the document they were signing. Therefore, those who cannot opt out of the above directive are in the same position as virtually every other worker in the European Union mainland. Those who have opted out are fully aware of their position by way of the documentation given and signed by them.
Therefore, all persons of working age employed or self-employed within the EU are well aware (or should be) of their position with regards to the working time regulations. The foregoing was the reason I did not mention the British opt out in my posting at #104 of this thread, as those that have taken up the British opt out make up a very small minority (possibly well under the 1% quoted) of the European Union working population.
Point taken amigacooke, but anybody who has travelled in the EU will very quickly realise that the English language is very widely understood and accepted in many Euorapean countries. Should any forum member feel that the information should be more widely available in other languages then they can post on the specialised sections of this forum or in employment forums widely available throughout Europe.
Amigacooke, the working time directive was brought forward by the European Parliament and European commission in 1993. The directive was ratified by all the individual parliaments of the then member countries with the exception of the United Kingdom who was the only country to gain an opt out position from the legislation.
Since then all new member countries joining the union must ratify all major existing legislation and directives as a condition of joining. As you may be aware the European Commission and Parliament both rejected Turkey’s application to become a member with one of the grounds being that they would not be able to enforce EU employment legislation within the country.
However, my main reason for posting in this thread was to strengthen awareness among the many payware content creators on this forum in regard to employment regulations within Europe and the possible effects that could have on their activity.
Bill
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Hi everybody.
Just to back Verns posting at #145 of this thread in regards to the “hawk like” nature of the taxation authorities here in the United Kingdom and much of Europe.
The wife/partner on one of my work associates is a physical fitness trainer employed by one of the large Bristol gyms. She does not work in her employment at weekends and therefore decided to start an “unofficial” outdoor training session for anyone interested on Saturday mornings lasting one hour which she named “The Boot Camp”.
It had been running for approximately 18 months and quite a number of regular participants came along at the bargain price of £10 for the one-hour session. All went well until she suddenly received a letter from the taxation authorities requesting details of her involvement with the Boot Camp. She at first denied any knowledge or involvement with the training sessions until they furnished her with details where one of the Boot Camp participants had tried to claim his regular £10 expenditure for tax relief when filling in his yearly return.
The tax authorities have now demanded and gained access to her bank accounts where the training participants have paid her by electronic transfer,"OH DEAR"
That’s how any find out Martinvk, payware content creators be aware.
Bill
Just to back Verns posting at #145 of this thread in regards to the “hawk like” nature of the taxation authorities here in the United Kingdom and much of Europe.
The wife/partner on one of my work associates is a physical fitness trainer employed by one of the large Bristol gyms. She does not work in her employment at weekends and therefore decided to start an “unofficial” outdoor training session for anyone interested on Saturday mornings lasting one hour which she named “The Boot Camp”.
It had been running for approximately 18 months and quite a number of regular participants came along at the bargain price of £10 for the one-hour session. All went well until she suddenly received a letter from the taxation authorities requesting details of her involvement with the Boot Camp. She at first denied any knowledge or involvement with the training sessions until they furnished her with details where one of the Boot Camp participants had tried to claim his regular £10 expenditure for tax relief when filling in his yearly return.
The tax authorities have now demanded and gained access to her bank accounts where the training participants have paid her by electronic transfer,"OH DEAR"
That’s how any find out Martinvk, payware content creators be aware.
Bill
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MeowRailroad
CKRail
Maybe a rule could be put in place that only if something is completely made by you it can be submitted, with the exception of currently builtin content becuase that is already technically being "sold", as you have to pay for the game to get it.
Here that would also be considered as conducting a business and therefore taxable.
amigacooke
Well-known member
Apparently not.
'The five EU Member States that allow the use of the opt-out, irrespective of the sector of activity or occupation, are Bulgaria, Cyprus, Estonia, Malta and the United Kingdom.'
Opting Out of the European Working Time Directive
I wonder if it might be best to look elsewhere than a train software forum for advice on laws and regulations?
Hi everyone.
Forum member Amigacooke, in above posting of his I believe was referring to my posting at #148 of this thread in which I stated: -
To which forum member amigacooke replied:-
Amigacooke, with every respect to your above posting the essential wording in my above posting is the word “was” as of the past tense. The United Kingdom was the only country to obtain an opt out from the directive at its instigation in 1993. However in allowing the the UK to do so, the directive had to be changed in a manner which allowed other countries in the future to also opt out.
As I have stated in an earlier posting virtually all adult working members of the European Union are controlled in their activities by the working time directive. Even countries that have opt out clauses accepted by the European Parliament still have to abide by such things as the minimum holiday regulations and shift breaks etc. Even in Britain every worker is still affected by WTD.
Amigacooke ,I tried to help you when you personally asked me to advise you on the directives affects on healthcare workers in Britain, to which to the best of my ability I have given you. However, should you require such things as the intricate details of the opt out clauses of countries as Cyprus, Estonia or Malta, I suggest that you abide by your own advice and look elsewhere other than a gaming forum for that advice.
Come on amigacooke, you can do better than this, or at least you always could do
Anyway, I am off later this afternoon to watch the world’s greatest football team (Manchester United) take Aston Villa apart in Birmingham tonight. With the price we have paid for the tickets I could have Purchased the best version of T:ane many times over. However, for my money I will get real entertainment as against the real drudgery of T:ane from all I read
Bill
Forum member Amigacooke, in above posting of his I believe was referring to my posting at #148 of this thread in which I stated: -
To which forum member amigacooke replied:-
Amigacooke, with every respect to your above posting the essential wording in my above posting is the word “was” as of the past tense. The United Kingdom was the only country to obtain an opt out from the directive at its instigation in 1993. However in allowing the the UK to do so, the directive had to be changed in a manner which allowed other countries in the future to also opt out.
As I have stated in an earlier posting virtually all adult working members of the European Union are controlled in their activities by the working time directive. Even countries that have opt out clauses accepted by the European Parliament still have to abide by such things as the minimum holiday regulations and shift breaks etc. Even in Britain every worker is still affected by WTD.
Amigacooke ,I tried to help you when you personally asked me to advise you on the directives affects on healthcare workers in Britain, to which to the best of my ability I have given you. However, should you require such things as the intricate details of the opt out clauses of countries as Cyprus, Estonia or Malta, I suggest that you abide by your own advice and look elsewhere other than a gaming forum for that advice.
Come on amigacooke, you can do better than this, or at least you always could do
Anyway, I am off later this afternoon to watch the world’s greatest football team (Manchester United) take Aston Villa apart in Birmingham tonight. With the price we have paid for the tickets I could have Purchased the best version of T:ane many times over. However, for my money I will get real entertainment as against the real drudgery of T:ane from all I read
Bill
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amigacooke
Well-known member
Thanks for the history lesson Bill, time to let this bone go I think
Now, about the world's 'greatest' football team ....
Now, about the world's 'greatest' football team ....
I wouldn't worry too much about this being a big profit center for anyone. If the price of most payware is as low as it is, it would take a lot more sales than it's worth the effort to make any profit at the work. Basically it's like working for peanuts.
John
So, Mr Hilliman was thanking a content creator who verbally abuses other members and wishes physical harm on them as recompense for N3V receiving a "pile of peanuts".
Sorry, I find that absolutely laughable.
(see section New era-kickstarter, thread "slow T:ane, posting #55) if it has not now been removed
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amigacooke
Well-known member
As we're on the road to off-topic, hey Bill, I see the greatest team in the world won yesterday.
Oh, and Man U won as well
Oh, and Man U won as well
I'm not even going to talk about Arsenal!As we're on the road to off-topic, hey Bill, I see the greatest team in the world won yesterday.
Oh, and Man U won as well
Well, maybe after tomorrow's game (or maybe not. We'll see how it goes! :'( )
