Seconded...
"Native" 2009 Compatibility List
- Thread starter OverlordNZ
- Start date
Seconded...
treblesum81
New member
illinoiscentral
SARM Volunteer
Hey Overlord,
I don't run 2009 but I still think this is a great idea. Forget people who insult you what matters is what you think, its your thing do what you want.:wave:
Cheers!!!
I don't run 2009 but I still think this is a great idea. Forget people who insult you what matters is what you think, its your thing do what you want.:wave:
Cheers!!!
Well, there you go, there's your validation right there!:hehe:
illinoiscentral
SARM Volunteer
"Bothering You since 2001"
Cheers.
Cheers.
ianwoodmore
Active member
First you need to define what you mean by "it works in TS2009".
Anything with a red flag is not available to be used in native mode because it is invisible. Similarly, you cannot choose it in Surveyor to place on a map.
On the other hand, a red flag item can be placed in TS2009 compatability mode. It may or may not "work". For instance, Mgalling people are red flagged and were in TRS2006 too. Yet they do work in the game in compatability mode.
Anything with a yellow warning will be visible in either mode.
It doesn't matter which legacy version it is (1.3, 1.5, 2.4, 2.6, 2.7, 2.8) nearly all can be made to work in one or other of the TS2009 modes but won't have all of the most recent functionality. Sure there are problems like Steam locos that have lousy sound or especs that don't perform prototypically in TS2009 but those problems will be solved. Just look at the tremendous progress that Jankvis and Kemplen have made with trees.
Steve Forget and the Fixit Team, including myself, started to do a similar exercise in 2006 to what Overlord is proposing. TARL provided some 8,000 fixes to enable repairs to be done to make assets work in TRS2006. TARL is now dead and 3 years work with it. Fortunately, I kept all the repair records. Unfortunately, they are in paper form. I would have had only 400 that CMP declared were faulty left to do. Since then CM2 is far more capable in finding the problems.
I have most of the original fixes on my PC but that is not much good to you. Attachment errors and missing textures require input from the creator but with the assistance of PEV's fantastic tools a very large number of the TS2009 red flags can be fixed. I'm fixing about 60-100 assets a day. My TAD has 136,000 assets (nearly all of the DLS) and that grows at about 1500-2000 a month. There are probably as many or more on external websites. I have to date fixed ~20,000 assets both yellow and red and that has taken 3 years. I have <4,000 red to go but expect probably 80% success. I have 33,000 yellow flags to clear and all of those can be fixed given time, but currently icons and alias assets still produce yellow flags. I'm aiming to complete that by the time TSX is launched. No doubt the goal posts will have moved again by then.
What I'm trying to indicate to you is that it is a situation where the goalposts may change due to functionality or policy changes for TS2009 and later versions. Certainly, there have been tremendous strides as we have beta tested TS2009 and it is still a work in progress.
Your database will always be out of date unless you can link it to CM2. PEV is already working on a database and if it is anything like his other tools it will be a very handy tool. It would be useful if Overlord could correspond with him and see what they can collectively come up with.
In my opinion, what we need is not something to tell us what might work in TS2009 but automated tools that enable repairs to be made to the majority of faulty legacy assets so that they do work. Then your database is redundant. However, if you can find all the missing assets (~8,000) and point us to where they can be found you will advance Trainzers enjoyment immeasurably. CM2 does not as yet provide this functionality, and the information is scattered and not consolidated anywhere that I'm aware of
Anything with a red flag is not available to be used in native mode because it is invisible. Similarly, you cannot choose it in Surveyor to place on a map.
On the other hand, a red flag item can be placed in TS2009 compatability mode. It may or may not "work". For instance, Mgalling people are red flagged and were in TRS2006 too. Yet they do work in the game in compatability mode.
Anything with a yellow warning will be visible in either mode.
It doesn't matter which legacy version it is (1.3, 1.5, 2.4, 2.6, 2.7, 2.8) nearly all can be made to work in one or other of the TS2009 modes but won't have all of the most recent functionality. Sure there are problems like Steam locos that have lousy sound or especs that don't perform prototypically in TS2009 but those problems will be solved. Just look at the tremendous progress that Jankvis and Kemplen have made with trees.
Steve Forget and the Fixit Team, including myself, started to do a similar exercise in 2006 to what Overlord is proposing. TARL provided some 8,000 fixes to enable repairs to be done to make assets work in TRS2006. TARL is now dead and 3 years work with it. Fortunately, I kept all the repair records. Unfortunately, they are in paper form. I would have had only 400 that CMP declared were faulty left to do. Since then CM2 is far more capable in finding the problems.
I have most of the original fixes on my PC but that is not much good to you. Attachment errors and missing textures require input from the creator but with the assistance of PEV's fantastic tools a very large number of the TS2009 red flags can be fixed. I'm fixing about 60-100 assets a day. My TAD has 136,000 assets (nearly all of the DLS) and that grows at about 1500-2000 a month. There are probably as many or more on external websites. I have to date fixed ~20,000 assets both yellow and red and that has taken 3 years. I have <4,000 red to go but expect probably 80% success. I have 33,000 yellow flags to clear and all of those can be fixed given time, but currently icons and alias assets still produce yellow flags. I'm aiming to complete that by the time TSX is launched. No doubt the goal posts will have moved again by then.
What I'm trying to indicate to you is that it is a situation where the goalposts may change due to functionality or policy changes for TS2009 and later versions. Certainly, there have been tremendous strides as we have beta tested TS2009 and it is still a work in progress.
Your database will always be out of date unless you can link it to CM2. PEV is already working on a database and if it is anything like his other tools it will be a very handy tool. It would be useful if Overlord could correspond with him and see what they can collectively come up with.
In my opinion, what we need is not something to tell us what might work in TS2009 but automated tools that enable repairs to be made to the majority of faulty legacy assets so that they do work. Then your database is redundant. However, if you can find all the missing assets (~8,000) and point us to where they can be found you will advance Trainzers enjoyment immeasurably. CM2 does not as yet provide this functionality, and the information is scattered and not consolidated anywhere that I'm aware of
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johnwhelan
Well-known member
So given we have a lot of information in Tarl could it have a couple more fields added if not present already? The first would be works in TRS2009 native mode, works in TRS2009 native mode when corrected, and a hyperlink to the asset on the DLS. Then you should be able to search TARL for items that work in native mode click on the hyperlink and use the download helper button to add them into CM2 download queue. Or could Pev's tool be incorporated in some way?
Cheerio John
Aha, the "I am a more experienced user so I know best"-guy has joined at last. The fact that CM2 gives an ERROR message is enough proof more me that an object isn't compatible with native TS2009. Even if it does show up correctly it still isn't fully compatible to TS2009 standards as set by the producer. Both you and the TO haven't given a definition of what in your eyes compatibility is. CM2 uses definitions set by Auran and by using those definitions an object when flagged as an error, it is not compatible and the others not flagged are compatible to Auran standards.
Perhaps YOU should stay around a little longer and learn a thing or two from a newbie that is simply using his brains instead of pounding his experienced chest thinking he knows it all.
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I posted a list of some British steam locos that work in trs2009 native mode. A lot more have been added that I will post at a later date. I have yet to check diesels.
Electric locos all appear to be very old and all the pantographs are .pm files. These are supposed to remain so as per manual.
Eldavo pay loco uses .im and script for it. Comments from content creators needed.
Electric locos all appear to be very old and all the pantographs are .pm files. These are supposed to remain so as per manual.
Eldavo pay loco uses .im and script for it. Comments from content creators needed.
ianwoodmore
Active member
Hi John,
TARL is dead period. It was a website first in Canada with Steve Forget and then when he abandoned it, Jenolan tried to revive it. But there were difficulties in maintaining it because of the loss of the corporate design knowledge. The plug has been pulled and the website closed. So TARL as a tool and accessible website is but a memory.
What I was trying to convey from the thousands of hours that were put into TARL is that Overlord is taking on the 'Labours of Hercules in the Aegean Stables.' It is a herculean task not only to populate such a database but to maintain. To be useful it has to be accurate and up to date. So it has to be linked to Trainz. You can do that via the DLS asset list that is downloaded to CM2. But then you have the task of deciding, in your opinion, what works and what doesn't. The only benchmark you have is the set of rules that Auran has built in to CM2/CCP/DLS because that is the criteria for acceptance.
TS2009 is about moving forward to new exciting experiences in 3D reality. It has a lot of baggage to carry. The very wide range of experience in a community of 300,000+ trainzers from those who just wish to play a game after plugging in a DVD right through to those geniuses who come up with fantastic ways to push the boundaries of the software makes it difficult to satisfy everybody. And the beauty as well as beast of Trainz is that everyone can have a go. So we end up with a quarter million assets worldwide that are sure to have there share of errors when measured against any yardstick.
As you are aware Auran makes the core software, but the majority of the assets we can use are made by the community. It is a partnership. Auran has to be commercial or we don't have Trainz. So there are hard decisions that have to be made. The legacy assets were broken before they got anywhere near TS2009. Many were broken measured against the TRS2004 CMP and CCG. TS2009 CM2 is far more capable of telling us what is wrong. Unfortunately, documentation hasn't kept pace with the developments, but then who reads it. A good many of the errors are due to people cloning from the creators experimenting at the edge of the software's capability without realising that there are errors and they are spreading them like a virus.
So let's accept that the rot stops here, and if we want to use the legacy assets we need to be involved in repairing it. PEV (Peter) has made a tremendous contribution in just 4-5mths with his tools that enable us to fix many errors reported by CM2. We need more automated tools to plugin/addon to CM2 to fix those errors with as little intervention as possible from the user.
As a beta tester I'm looking at TS2009 from the viewpoint of the user. Auran has listened and incorporated much of the recommendations I've made. So my TARL experience translates into more and better search filters to enable data to be extracted from TAD.There are many others like me who are assisting in making Trainz a better experience for all. But it is not a black and white situation. Tradeoffs have to be made and there are only as many human resources as there are people willing to be involved. Often that means collaboration between the user and those who are gifted with skills and knowledge way beyond my comprehension despite the fact that I started in computers about the same time as Bill Gates. (How come he can lose more money in one year than my country's GDP and still smile.)
Based on my experience (I know I'm sticking my neck out) I just don't want Overlord or anyone else to think that a database of the magnitude he is contemplating will ever be finished. Should he proceed I believe firmly that whatever he comes up with has to be tightly integrated with CM2 to be of maximum use to the community. The pertinent data has to be extracted from TAD and embellished with the extra functionality like John suggests. So why not extend CM2 to do this task rather than a standalone database. Auran may well have different priorities to us. So all you clever programmers how about it. If someone can produce a means of coupling TAD to an Excel spreadsheet or equivalent I'd be very happy. Then I could translate my paper records to electronic form in my own time and to the level I need. Unfortunately like TARL and any other database needing populating it is a herculean effort, and right now my priority is helping Auran and the other beta testers and tool makers to improve TS2009 AND make it as compatible as possible with the legacy assets. But don't confuse compatability with allowing every legacy asset, no matter even if it is crap, to work in TS2009.
TARL is dead period. It was a website first in Canada with Steve Forget and then when he abandoned it, Jenolan tried to revive it. But there were difficulties in maintaining it because of the loss of the corporate design knowledge. The plug has been pulled and the website closed. So TARL as a tool and accessible website is but a memory.
What I was trying to convey from the thousands of hours that were put into TARL is that Overlord is taking on the 'Labours of Hercules in the Aegean Stables.' It is a herculean task not only to populate such a database but to maintain. To be useful it has to be accurate and up to date. So it has to be linked to Trainz. You can do that via the DLS asset list that is downloaded to CM2. But then you have the task of deciding, in your opinion, what works and what doesn't. The only benchmark you have is the set of rules that Auran has built in to CM2/CCP/DLS because that is the criteria for acceptance.
TS2009 is about moving forward to new exciting experiences in 3D reality. It has a lot of baggage to carry. The very wide range of experience in a community of 300,000+ trainzers from those who just wish to play a game after plugging in a DVD right through to those geniuses who come up with fantastic ways to push the boundaries of the software makes it difficult to satisfy everybody. And the beauty as well as beast of Trainz is that everyone can have a go. So we end up with a quarter million assets worldwide that are sure to have there share of errors when measured against any yardstick.
As you are aware Auran makes the core software, but the majority of the assets we can use are made by the community. It is a partnership. Auran has to be commercial or we don't have Trainz. So there are hard decisions that have to be made. The legacy assets were broken before they got anywhere near TS2009. Many were broken measured against the TRS2004 CMP and CCG. TS2009 CM2 is far more capable of telling us what is wrong. Unfortunately, documentation hasn't kept pace with the developments, but then who reads it. A good many of the errors are due to people cloning from the creators experimenting at the edge of the software's capability without realising that there are errors and they are spreading them like a virus.
So let's accept that the rot stops here, and if we want to use the legacy assets we need to be involved in repairing it. PEV (Peter) has made a tremendous contribution in just 4-5mths with his tools that enable us to fix many errors reported by CM2. We need more automated tools to plugin/addon to CM2 to fix those errors with as little intervention as possible from the user.
As a beta tester I'm looking at TS2009 from the viewpoint of the user. Auran has listened and incorporated much of the recommendations I've made. So my TARL experience translates into more and better search filters to enable data to be extracted from TAD.There are many others like me who are assisting in making Trainz a better experience for all. But it is not a black and white situation. Tradeoffs have to be made and there are only as many human resources as there are people willing to be involved. Often that means collaboration between the user and those who are gifted with skills and knowledge way beyond my comprehension despite the fact that I started in computers about the same time as Bill Gates. (How come he can lose more money in one year than my country's GDP and still smile.)
Based on my experience (I know I'm sticking my neck out) I just don't want Overlord or anyone else to think that a database of the magnitude he is contemplating will ever be finished. Should he proceed I believe firmly that whatever he comes up with has to be tightly integrated with CM2 to be of maximum use to the community. The pertinent data has to be extracted from TAD and embellished with the extra functionality like John suggests. So why not extend CM2 to do this task rather than a standalone database. Auran may well have different priorities to us. So all you clever programmers how about it. If someone can produce a means of coupling TAD to an Excel spreadsheet or equivalent I'd be very happy. Then I could translate my paper records to electronic form in my own time and to the level I need. Unfortunately like TARL and any other database needing populating it is a herculean effort, and right now my priority is helping Auran and the other beta testers and tool makers to improve TS2009 AND make it as compatible as possible with the legacy assets. But don't confuse compatability with allowing every legacy asset, no matter even if it is crap, to work in TS2009.
What a shame AURAN doesn't have some kind of a marker built-in to tell you which mode the built-ins can be used it for when you want to make a selection and what a shame, they would let stuff go out which won't work in either within the product. Oh well, I certainly look forward to that list. Thanks for the effort,
=gerry=
=gerry=
American_Connections
AC MonkeyWrench Models
Shame!
The shame is that they made a program that is not compatible with the mass of assets made for thier game!
johnwhelan
Well-known member
I think this is one of the major problems, but hopefully time will resolve it.
Cheerio John
It's okay, you don't have to include my content!
Anyway, realistically 2009 can take it's sweet time. Auran already has supplied the community with 04, 06, TC, and even UTC. Most of the stuff people have made work, or at least they don't scream at you too loudly.
2009 can sit idle as far as I'm concerned, until it has a reasonable amount of content that works natively, or is selling for $5.95 USD. 2009 is really not the "end all to end all"! It has some incremental improvements over the other Trainz versions as all Trainz versions have had, but it's not that fantastic that everyone should drop their favorite versions to support it. The "fix one thing while breaking another" mentality or code structure has guaranteed THAT!
You fellows who are driving the advances in 2009 should realize how high in regard the rest of us hold you, and you should also realize that the program will not be a bonifide draw until the far future, when the broken features that used to work are fixed, when there is content galore, and when there is a reason to upgrade. Right now, I don't see it.
Enjoy your hobby!
OverlordNZ
Grumpy Old Bastar*
Well, I was only going to do the built-in stuff. (but I'm not doing it at all now)
Anyone want to have a go at, be my guest..I'm sorry I even brought up the subject
Cheers
Anyone want to have a go at, be my guest..I'm sorry I even brought up the subject
Cheers
Well said. I certainly admire those who are devoted to bringing the next generation of railroad simulation graphics to reality, and look forward to the successful conclusion of their efforts.
However, in the meantime, some of us just want to run trains! And to say it's discouraging to import a layout from '06 into '09 and find half the trains running without locomotives, signals malfunctioning, and multiple gaps in every train where various cars fail to render is discouraging--and this in "compatibility" mode! I can certainly understand why some users want to try to bring the job of 'repairing' (i.e. upgrading to TRS09 standards) assets enough so that their layouts (many of which consumed hundreds of hours of work) will function with at least minimal problems.
Neither finger-pointing nor preaching are going to help. Let's just cooperate, and if we don't like someone's idea we can always just stay out of the way...
--Lamont
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