If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

[Smileyman]

There is virtualisation and emulation to take into consideration. If I choose I can go on a trip down memory lane and run my old Electron, Spectrum and Amiga software.

No need to tell me.
Haven't you read some of my posts in the past about my MAME Cab?
I even posted a picture of it a couple of years ago when I mentioned that I also ran Trainz on it occasionally, and I'm not sure Ed believed me, so I had to show him. lol

It may still be up somewhere, although I can't remember if it was before the great forum crash or after it.

Mike, I agree that lowering the price doesn't necessarily mean you'll get more sales.
At least not immediately, but that's where the work starts.
With quality work and word of mouth alone, I'm pretty certain that given enough time the assets would make more than they do currently.

This is because I imagine that the people prepared to pay those prices for assets are generally fans of that content in particular (for me, Class 20, 37, 40, 46, 47, 50 etc) and simply must have them if they're not available for free, and those sales eventually dry up once they've all bought them.

With a lower price, I for one would be prepared to buy locos that might not be on my wish-list, and at a realistic price I'd buy it eventually.
This means that it won't only be the die-hard fans of particular locos that buy them, meaning a larger customer base for all their assets, not just one or two items.

I firmly believe that with a bit of work, Payware creators would make more than they do if they bother to build it up.

Maybe they're content with a bunch of people buying a loco or two when it's released, rather than a steady stream of customers over years.
It's their loss.

Trainz won't be around forever, so I would suggest that they make the most of it while the going is good and we still have a large crowd here.

Smiley.

 

[WindWalkr]

Hi guys,

Some interesting points being made in this thread.

I reckon there are many more costs and overheads in getting a physical model from design to layout. The following immediately spring to mind, with each having a price tag. I've probably missed out several others.

Competitive tendering
Choosing manufacturer
Setting up contract (lawyer fees!)
Preliminary discussions at planning stage with chosen supplier
Building the initial real model for factory tooling
Approving model
Quality control
Shipping from factory (possibly from some distance, probably overseas)
Storage in country of arrival
Distribution to retail outlets
Progress chasing factory, carriers etc.
Dealing with returns

None of the above applies to virtual modellers, so costs must be significantly less.

Don't totally agree. Firstly, a lot of that only needs to be done once no matter how many (different) models you make. Secondly, have a think about these:

* Purchasing 3D modeling software.
* Purchasing 2D texturing software.
* Choosing or creating a distribution site.
* Setting up a merchant account with the payment provider.
* Building the initial high-detail model.
* Building LODs, animations, etc.
* Scripting, effects, sounds.
* Approving the model.
* Quality assurance.
* Digital distribution hosting costs.
* Dealing with complaints.

To be clear, I'm not claiming that a digital model will cost as much per unit as a real model, or even as much up front- but I do think that the overall costs and effort are not as significantly different as some people here have suggested.

Now, whether it's worth that much to the buyer- well, that's the buyer's decision. And if there's no market price that the buyer would agree to pay but will still cover the costs, then it doesn't mean that sellers will lower their prices- it just means that we'll never see anyone doing this as something beyond a hobby.

chris

 

[johnwhelan]

* Quality assurance.


chris

I can't resist what's "Quality assurance"?

I think I agree with you about the rest. You haven't mentioned user expectations or how to handle problem areas.

Physical models are normally purchased in stores and there is some sort of quality assured with the retailer having some sort of legal responsibility to resolve problems.

With freeware they can be handled by some one suggesting a modification on the forum or a new version being uploaded to the DLS. Payware is not quite so flexible.

Also what protects the buyer and seller? The UK has the trades descriptions act if I say it is a pink loco then it must be pink. If its blue then by law there is a problem and the buyer is protected. This gives the buyer some confidence that they will get what is described.

Locally we have the Better Business Bureau who will attempt to resolve problems and give businesses a rating of A to F. You can at least do a background check before doing business with a company or individual.

In the international world of Trainz there appears to be no such protection and given that the moderators have stated quite clearly that Auran is not interested in having payware concerns raised in the forum you can't even depend on the seller wishing to protect their reputation or advising others that this is a person you may wish to clarify with them exactly what they are providing before doing business with them.

Thanks John

 

[WindWalkr]

I can't resist what's "Quality assurance"?

In the games industry, this is the term for the in-house group which is responsible for testing and reporting. Unlike other industry where the quality group is a small set of managers who try to encourage the entire staff to follow ISO 9000 principles, we're typically stuck with a large team of actual workers whose job it is to repro bugs. Pushing quality management through the rest of the organisation is typically the role of the team leads.

In the case of virtual product creation, I'm specifically referring to the process of testing (both internally by the creation group, and externally by a closed beta group.)

You haven't mentioned user expectations or how to handle problem areas. Physical models are normally purchased in stores and there is some sort of quality assured with the retailer having some sort of legal responsibility to resolve problems.

This probably varies from country to country, but my general assumption would be that end-user rights are fairly similar between physical products and digital products.

One key concern for digital products is that they typically have dependencies on other software that the user will eventually upgrade (eg. Trainz, Windows, etc.) It is typical that a product is warranted to work in a specific environment and that any attempt to upgrade is taken at the user's own risk. It's always nice when a developer provides free updates to allow their products to work in the latest environments, but at some point that always becomes cost-prohibitive.

Physical products are little different in this respect, but the timescales are often larger- physical materials degrade over time, quality relative to the state of the art generally decreases, and new products may not be compatible with the older products. But this can happen much more quickly in the software field.

With freeware they can be handled by some one suggesting a modification on the forum or a new version being uploaded to the DLS. Payware is not quite so flexible.

There's little difference, unless the freeware creator places the item into the public domain. At the end of the day, once the creator tires of providing free updates, the updates stop happening and everybody has to move on.

Also what protects the buyer and seller? The UK has the trades descriptions act if I say it is a pink loco then it must be pink. If its blue then by law there is a problem and the buyer is protected. This gives the buyer some confidence that they will get what is described.

Locally we have the Better Business Bureau who will attempt to resolve problems and give businesses a rating of A to F. You can at least do a background check before doing business with a company or individual.

Again, this varies from country to country, and there can be problems of jurisdiction, but you'll generally find that the sale of a digital product over the internet is somewhat equivalent to the sale of any other product when it comes down to law. When you think about it, the value of every software package that you might buy (and some of them are very expensive) comes down to the cost of the digital content and not the $10 worth of packaging.

In the international world of Trainz there appears to be no such protection and given that the moderators have stated quite clearly that Auran is not interested in having payware concerns raised in the forum you can't even depend on the seller wishing to protect their reputation or advising others that this is a person you may wish to clarify with them exactly what they are providing before doing business with them.

Auran does not make any money off payware at the current time, so it would be foolish for us to absorb any of the cost or responsibilities. Similarly, we don't want to deal with the sale of real-world models. Neither of these are our business. Both buyers and sellers of such content are limited by their local laws, however.

chris

 

[falcon500]

1-Faulty assets. Most assets that I've imported to TS2010 have been OK, but had been error corrected well before in 2004 or TC3. Not too difficult to correct other errors with PEV tools. If older content on DLS needs error correction isn't that up to the original creator? Not really Aurans job and I'm far from their biggest fan.
2-Compatibility mode. I don't think this was really needed, only to run old built in routes using old trees. In fact a lot of old locos are marked as 5 star meaning they have been upgraded supposedly to 2010 standards. Most of this "upgrading" only goes as far as shiny appearance with the wheels looking like octagons in both modes. A lot of older content could have been left out.
Payware- Around $10 seems like a fair price to me as you usually get 3 versions of a loco for that. Not that I have much payware only what I really like. Many freeware items from rrmods and others are probably as good as most payware.

 

[amigacooke]

I suppose there is always the route of sending a PM to a payware creator politely telling them what you are prepared to pay. If enough people indicate they are prepared to buy at a lower cost, then it might be worth while dropping the price.

 

[WindWalkr]

1-Faulty assets. Most assets that I've imported to TS2010 have been OK, but had been error corrected well before in 2004 or TC3. Not too difficult to correct other errors with PEV tools. If older content on DLS needs error correction isn't that up to the original creator? Not really Aurans job and I'm far from their biggest fan.

We'd also prefer the original creator to do it- they would have the best idea of how the asset should be repaired/improved. But where the original creator can not or will not take responsibility for the repair, somebody still needs to fix the problem.

2-Compatibility mode. I don't think this was really needed, only to run old built in routes using old trees.

I think that a lot of people used compatibility mode in TS2009- in fact that was the default mode. With TS2010, native mode usage is becoming significantly more common. In the future, I expect we will drop compatibility mode completely.

In fact a lot of old locos are marked as 5 star meaning they have been upgraded supposedly to 2010 standards. Most of this "upgrading" only goes as far as shiny appearance with the wheels looking like octagons in both modes. A lot of older content could have been left out.

The star rating is user-selectable. Auran populates some of the built-in content as favorites because one of our criticisms from reviewers and new users has typically been along the lines of "how can I find anything when there are so many options?" We don't want to cut back on the number of options available to people, but by using the favorites system we can cut back on the number that are shown to people up-front.

Once the user has a little bit more experience, they can turn off the filter, or choose their own set of favorites to display.

cheers,

chris

 

[crohakon]

The star rating is user-selectable. Auran populates some of the built-in content as favorites because one of our criticisms from reviewers and new users has typically been along the lines of "how can I find anything when there are so many options?" We don't want to cut back on the number of options available to people, but by using the favorites system we can cut back on the number that are shown to people up-front.

Once the user has a little bit more experience, they can turn off the filter, or choose their own set of favorites to display.

cheers,

chris

I think this is one of the most annoying features of 2010 (aside from all the others.) hehe

Is there a way to turn this off as default? Every time I load up trainz I have to stumble over the filter. Yeah yeah, nice and all, but I don't use it and I do not want it ON by default. The option to turn it on, should I desire, would be nice... but an option to have the default setting as OFF would be great.

 

[norfolksouthern37]

* Purchasing 3D modeling software.
* Purchasing 2D texturing software.
* Choosing or creating a distribution site.
* Setting up a merchant account with the payment provider.
* Building the initial high-detail model.
* Building LODs, animations, etc.
* Scripting, effects, sounds.
* Approving the model.
* Quality assurance.
* Digital distribution hosting costs.
* Dealing with complaints.

this is exactly right. you are correct in all of your posts in this thread.

whether anyone agrees or not, the production of either payware or freeware items comes at a cost to the creator/vendor. my US income taxes say i did very well in the past year since i started jointedrail.com. much better that i ever expected. but it still comes at a cost. not to mention payware items dont 'last' forever on the virtual shelves. they have very high sales at first, but then everyone who wants one gets them, and thats all. after that you might get a sale of that single item here and there. you have to continually make new items that people want. i also intend to support the developers for as long as i can, obviously, i cant do this without them, and i know for certain i have generated sales for them just by showing what myself and other creators can do with this software. in addition to my own purchases i have also purchased copies of TS2009 for my team. i have been very happy with being a payware creator, as well as a freeware creator.

 

[WindWalkr]

I think this is one of the most annoying features of 2010 (aside from all the others.) hehe

Is there a way to turn this off as default? Every time I load up trainz I have to stumble over the filter. Yeah yeah, nice and all, but I don't use it and I do not want it ON by default. The option to turn it on, should I desire, would be nice... but an option to have the default setting as OFF would be great.

Yes, it's in the Surveyor Settings.

chris

 

[American_Connections]

Good today, but tomorrow?

... where the original creator can not or will not take responsibility for the repair, somebody still needs to fix the problem.
...cheers, chris

This is the point I stated when I opened this thread. If Auran changes the standards every year, why is it looked at as the creators fault! Who wants to go though every item they have made to make these changes over and over again! I just do not understand why the older assets need to be discarded for the improvements of the new technology. Surely the lessons learned with older versions should not be forgot, but used and included in the new improvements.

 

[johnwhelan]

This is the point I stated when I opened this thread. If Auran changes the standards every year, why is it looked at as the creators fault! Who wants to go though every item they have made to make these changes over and over again! I just do not understand why the older assets need to be discarded for the improvements of the new technology. Surely the lessons learned with older versions should not be forgot, but used and included in the new improvements.

I don't think the standards have changed. If we as content creators didn't understand them or check our content thoroughly enough then that is a different issue.

Cheerio John

 

[crohakon]

I am pretty sure the "standards" never changed, Auran just got better at error checking.

 

[American_Connections]

Don't add up!

I am pretty sure the "standards" never changed...

If nothing changed, then why they wanted to dis-allow prior vestion content for 2009? From what I am reading here, 2010 now works with everything.

 

[Baureihe41]

I am pretty sure the "standards" never changed, Auran just got better at error checking.

I am afraid you are wrong. Quite a number of "standards" have been changed. Try to run a TRS2006 build steam engine in TC3 or later versions.

 

[crohakon]

I suppose that is the exception, but from what I hear they were changed with good reason. The "standards" for steam engines were not so great in prior versions. The new way of doing things is, from what I read, going to really enhance future steam engines in Trainz.

 

[Baureihe41]

I suppose that is the exception, but from what I hear they were changed with good reason. The "standards" for steam engines were not so great in prior versions. The new way of doing things is, from what I read, going to really enhance future steam engines in Trainz.

So you weren't pretty sure at all, no? There are more changes that do hinder older content to function correctly. My "exception" was posted as one example.

 

[boat]

We'd also prefer the original creator to do it- they would have the best idea of how the asset should be repaired/improved. But where the original creator can not or will not take responsibility for the repair, somebody still needs to fix the problem.

Hi Chris,

With reference to this quote and another thread or two which has touched on this and copyright issues..... as an Auranite, what's your view on correcting and/or re-issuing popular assets that are broken in TS 2010?

I'm referering to assets where the author no longer has an interest in Trainz.

Who can be the 'somebody' who fixes the problem?

Boat (Mike)

 

[paulzmay]

So you weren't pretty sure at all, no? There are more changes that do hinder older content to function correctly. My "exception" was posted as one example.

Steam specs are the only one I can think of. Does anyone else know of any others, or are you able to list any of these 'more changes'? I certainly can't think of anything relating to scenery.

Paul

 

[crohakon]

I am fairly sure the only changes were made to steam engine specs... Otherwise it is just a better and less forgiving error checking system design to increase game performance.