If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
- Thread starter American_Connections
- Start date
Is it? Let's assume that they take roughly the same amount of time to make- one to model in a CAD program, and the other to model in a graphical modeling program. (Sure, there's going to be some time difference, but probably not as much as you'd think at first.)
With this assumption, the only reasonable cost difference per item should be the cost of physical materials and manufacture. I'm guessing that we'd be looking at somewhere around the $20 mark at moderate volume, though admittedly I don't have a lot of experience in this area.
Now the final thing to consider would be how many of the items will sell. I'd suggest that there is currently a larger market for moderate-price physical train models than there is for virtual models. Halving the cost of an item will not necessarily double the sales - in fact, I'd suggest that this is rare.
It would be nice if that were true. A single item of quality payware with this kind of numbers could probably earn more than Auran does from Trainz
Some people here obviously make money off payware. It'd be interesting if they would be willing to share their experiences.
chris
Not quite sure I follow. What do you mean by 'template'? Are you looking to see an example of a config file for a specific asset kind? There are a few examples available on the wiki, but there are many many more available in CM.
chris
American_Connections
AC MonkeyWrench Models
Template
kuid <kuid:213782:100036>
region "USA"
type "AC MonkeyWrench Models"
light 1
mesh-table {
default {
mesh "house.IM"
auto-create 1
}
}
smoke0 {
mode "timeofday"
attachment "a.smoke0"
color 240,240,240,255
accel 0,0,0.1
start 0
period 1
rate 6
velocity .5
lifetime 20
minsize 0.25
maxsize 2
}
trainz-build 2.0
asset-filename "Monkeywrench Ranch House"
category-class "BS"
category-region-0 "US"
category-era-0 "1900s"
description "Kent Carter's ranch house, built in 1936, given to him in 1990 by his father. Lost to fire in 2001. This is a high detail stucture with interior and some of the furniture that was in it. To see the inside, add invisible track from in front and behind the structure to wonder though the house and use my lantern or pedestrian cameras, you can even go up the stairs to find my train table. My father is not there, but if you look close, you may see his spirit!"
kind "scenery"
username "AC MWM Monkeywrench Ranch House"
author "Kent T Carter"
organisation "AC MonkeyWrench Models"
contact-email "ac_monkeywrench_models@yahoo.com"
contact-website "http://ac-monkeywrench-models.yolasite.com"
license "AC213782MWM"
kuid-table {
}
Like this-
kuid <kuid:213782:100036>
region "USA"
type "AC MonkeyWrench Models"
light 1
mesh-table {
default {
mesh "house.IM"
auto-create 1
}
}
smoke0 {
mode "timeofday"
attachment "a.smoke0"
color 240,240,240,255
accel 0,0,0.1
start 0
period 1
rate 6
velocity .5
lifetime 20
minsize 0.25
maxsize 2
}
trainz-build 2.0
asset-filename "Monkeywrench Ranch House"
category-class "BS"
category-region-0 "US"
category-era-0 "1900s"
description "Kent Carter's ranch house, built in 1936, given to him in 1990 by his father. Lost to fire in 2001. This is a high detail stucture with interior and some of the furniture that was in it. To see the inside, add invisible track from in front and behind the structure to wonder though the house and use my lantern or pedestrian cameras, you can even go up the stairs to find my train table. My father is not there, but if you look close, you may see his spirit!"
kind "scenery"
username "AC MWM Monkeywrench Ranch House"
author "Kent T Carter"
organisation "AC MonkeyWrench Models"
contact-email "ac_monkeywrench_models@yahoo.com"
contact-website "http://ac-monkeywrench-models.yolasite.com"
license "AC213782MWM"
kuid-table {
}
Reference- http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?p=482274#post482274
johnwhelan
Well-known member
Just a comment on real versus Virtual. I work with a group of modelers and the latest thing is printing wagons / coaches. You use a 3D printer, there is one available for $750 these days, create your wagon in Blender and export a print file. Sound familiar?
Cheerio John
And I bet they openly trade their designs around between themselves, I doubt any of them has started saying 'well, since mine are better, that'll be $30...'
That's a very good point, and one that seems to have been missed.
The cost of producing the real models is a constant, and the price reflects this for each model.
A digital model, whether it has been researched as much as a real model or not, does not incur any other costs once it is finished (PayPal is only 3.4% of the transaction for sales under £1,500, and if you make more than that a month you pay less per transaction).
So if you sell a Payware item for £2.00, you pay PayPal 27p and make a clear profit of £1.73 per sale)
Which brings me onto your next point:
Exactly.
I think it's safe to say that the majority of PayWare vendors are not businessmen by day.
I know so many people who would have bought a lot more payware if it was priced correctly, including myself.
And it's not because of lack of funds personally believe me.
I've spent over £1,000 on upgrading my computers in the last month alone.
I just don't like to be taken for a ride.
Sell 20 assets at £10 per asset = £200 (minus PayPal fee of £7 = £193)
or
Sell 200 assets at £2 per asset = £400 (minus PayPal fee of £13.80 = £386.20)
Let's not forget that real models will also continue to exist if and when Trainz is gone, and also have a resale value.
Smiley.
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mezzoprezzo
Content appreciator
Hi Chris,
Not sure I totally agree.
I wouldn't argue with regard to design work.
I reckon there are many more costs and overheads in getting a physical model from design to layout. The following immediately spring to mind, with each having a price tag. I've probably missed out several others.
Competitive tendering
Choosing manufacturer
Setting up contract (lawyer fees!)
Preliminary discussions at planning stage with chosen supplier
Building the initial real model for factory tooling
Approving model
Quality control
Shipping from factory (possibly from some distance, probably overseas)
Storage in country of arrival
Distribution to retail outlets
Progress chasing factory, carriers etc.
Dealing with returns
None of the above applies to virtual modellers, so costs must be significantly less.
Agreed it would be interesting to hear from the pro's regarding the differences.
Interesting comment from John regarding the 3d printing. Presumably the result is "stuck" (hope the terminology is not too technical) on the model, which still has to be factory built. Or is it? Presumably bogies & couplings still have to be physically made?
Cheers
Casper
Not sure I totally agree.
I wouldn't argue with regard to design work.
I reckon there are many more costs and overheads in getting a physical model from design to layout. The following immediately spring to mind, with each having a price tag. I've probably missed out several others.
Competitive tendering
Choosing manufacturer
Setting up contract (lawyer fees!)
Preliminary discussions at planning stage with chosen supplier
Building the initial real model for factory tooling
Approving model
Quality control
Shipping from factory (possibly from some distance, probably overseas)
Storage in country of arrival
Distribution to retail outlets
Progress chasing factory, carriers etc.
Dealing with returns
None of the above applies to virtual modellers, so costs must be significantly less.
Agreed it would be interesting to hear from the pro's regarding the differences.
Interesting comment from John regarding the 3d printing. Presumably the result is "stuck" (hope the terminology is not too technical) on the model, which still has to be factory built. Or is it? Presumably bogies & couplings still have to be physically made?
Cheers
Casper
mezzoprezzo
Content appreciator
Very good point, well made, on the pricing Smiley.
Regarding the resale value of the real thing, its not just the models. Ive still got some original Rovex & Triang boxes with my old 1950's rolling stock. All in the loft unused now, but the boxes are probably worth more than the contents.
I've never purchased PayWare stuff. Do you get a cyber box with it?
Cheers
Casper
johnwhelan
Well-known member
Interesting comment from John regarding the 3d printing. Presumably the result is "stuck" (hope the terminology is not too technical) on the model, which still has to be factory built. Or is it? Presumably bogies & couplings still have to be physically made?
Cheers
Casper
This is very new and what happens at the moment is they pay some one to convert the drawings into a 3D CAD program such as Blender and go to a commercial printer to print the result. Bogies etc are normal metal ones and you purchase these separately.
They ask how many people are interested for how many wagons and basically build a batch based on the numbers. The price is dependent on the number in the batch.
What is interesting is the 7 mm guys have just caught onto the fact that they can use the same basic CAD program data as the 4 mm guys so that pushes up the numbers to pay for the input and drops their costs considerably.
There has been some conversations about it's not the same as getting the soldering iron out but the general consensus is its a good thing.
I keep meaning to take one of my Blender files and create the right sort of output file then find some one with the $750 printer and see what the results would be. That would drop the cost considerably as the 3D creation program input cost is about two thirds of the total cost at the moment.
The whole thing was started by one person who wanted a model that was unavailable so he commissioned the first one. When the printers asked him how many copies he wanted and he found out the incremental cost for the extra copies he asked in one of the email groups if any one wanted a copy and it went from there.
Cheerio John
American_Connections
AC MonkeyWrench Models
To exist or not to exist...
Not to take sides in this argument, but as long as you have the CD or a copy of the program, you will always have the game. After you buy the game, Auran has no more power over it or you. If the company goes out of business, only thier DLS and it's support will be gone. There are many other places to get assets, and the community will more than likely succeed the company, because it is really the members and the creators that make Trainz what it is! Also, note the copies you make can safely be stored way from home in many storage sites in case you might loose the ones you have at home. I lost all my models, as with everything else I had, in the house fire and they will never be again! Some that I kit-bashed myself and cannot be done again as they were! Granted virtual will never be the same as as the real thing! Is funny that my favorite N-gage Mountain locomotive stopped working just before the fire, and it cost me about 60$ or 70$ in the early 80's. The virtual models will not break or break down either!
My brother looked at one of those big 3D printers. The unit cost about $1600 used on Ebay. The purchase price wasn't bad, but the consumable costs were really high, and there's a required maintenance contract from the manufacturer.
The other issue he found is the quality wasn't there for the ABS version of the printer, which is the least expensive. The output was very "stepped" where the material is put down in layers. The styrene version is better, but you couldn't mix certain colors, and the material costs were higher.
The alternative to this printer is one that uses plastic powder. A laser builds the model by melting and ablating the powder into the shape of the object. These units, however require a lot of power and are really expensive. The output is superior though, so there's a trade-of on one end or the other.
This 3D printing idea is great, but the low-end of the technology spectrum isn't quite there yet.
John
The other issue he found is the quality wasn't there for the ABS version of the printer, which is the least expensive. The output was very "stepped" where the material is put down in layers. The styrene version is better, but you couldn't mix certain colors, and the material costs were higher.
The alternative to this printer is one that uses plastic powder. A laser builds the model by melting and ablating the powder into the shape of the object. These units, however require a lot of power and are really expensive. The output is superior though, so there's a trade-of on one end or the other.
This 3D printing idea is great, but the low-end of the technology spectrum isn't quite there yet.
John
If Auran stop producing Trainz, you're left with whatever version you have to run your models in.
This will work fine in the current version of Windows.
Travel 10 years down the line and see how well TS2010 runs in whatever version of Windows is being used then (presuming Windows is still the top dog).
If like recent versions of Windows you find that a lot of software doesn't run correctly without an update for the new OS, then you're screwed.
You could always install a version of Windows that doesn't need validating, like the Pro version of XP, so that you can always run it on a separate computer or a dual boot on your current computer, but both of those will only last as long as your components.
Once you can't get a graphics card to run on that old OS you will need to upgrade your OS and kiss goodbye to Trainz and your models.
Nothing is forever in this virtual world.
A real model could last for centuries if you wanted it to, and still run.
$64,000 question hey Mike?
I've already said above what sort of price range they should be in to sell more assets at a lower price than a few at a higher price.
Personally, I wouldn't pay more than £3 for a good loco or for a good wagon pack.
The author may think that's not enough for the time put in, but surely the total amount of money made from the model is more important than the individual price, and attracting more customers and keeping them because of a really good price is more important than thinking your models are "special" because of the price put on them.
Imagine if you will :wave:; I have a scenario that I've written that accidentally leaves a Payware loco in there, and I get asked on the forums where they can get it.
I explain that they can get it from www.ithinkimthegreatestmodellerintheworld.com for £10, and apart from a few who are easily parted from their money, most people would say stuff the Scenario, I'm not paying that (we've seen it happen on the forums).
Imagine instead if I explain to them that they can get it from www.iAMagoodmodeller.com for £2.
If they have a PayPal account, and they like the look of the model, then they'll think to themselves "I'm not going to miss 2 quid" and head over to the site.
And who's to say, because the site has lots of great locos at £2 each, they don't come away from there with 3 or 4 locos.
Oh, and while we're at it, I really dislike the practice of selling a loco for x amount, and then selling a different skinned version for the same price.
Gets right up my back. :n:
I think Paul Hobbs' pricing is more realistic than most (well a few of his items anyway, £1.99/£2.99), and he's about the best modeller in this community.
It's just a shame that he's so into steam.
Go get yourself some books on 80's diesels Paul!
Anyway, I think that the major obstacle with decent pricing on Payware is two-fold.
- You can see people charging ridiculous prices for other sims and this one (and the authors give the impression that they sell well), and because new Payware authors can't see the opportunity for taking the market, they follow suit and sell a few items.
- Some people can't seem to get past the "my Payware is worth that much at least" barrier, even if it means making less money on the asset in the long run.
Smiley.
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I think it comes down to this...
If it is to expensive for you, don't buy it. If you really need it for your route but can't afford it, learn how to make it. The only thing making it will cost you is your time. Hey, and in the end, you are a bit smarter for it!
No need for this complaining about prices to continue. Vote with your fiat currency.
If it is to expensive for you, don't buy it. If you really need it for your route but can't afford it, learn how to make it. The only thing making it will cost you is your time. Hey, and in the end, you are a bit smarter for it!
No need for this complaining about prices to continue. Vote with your fiat currency.
Unfortunately halving the price doesn't necessarily double the sales. With others charging more the temptation has to be to price to match and generate the most revenue from the model. I've not done payware yet (apart from TRS2006, TC3, and TS2009:S&C obviously
) but I do think 'blimey' when I see the prices being asked for some second-rate stuff.Me too, and even worse when you have to pay for having a different number in the same livery even.
We decided to leave some content out of TC3 because the author wanted to supply us just one livery with one number. He couldn't be persuaded to change this and our (ie rail-sim.co.uk) policy has been to include items with multiple numbers selection and sometimes alternate liveries with most of our our stock, so we turned it down.
I agree again, and I've tried to turn him, honestly I have.I think Paul Hobbs' pricing is more realistic than most (well a few of his items anyway, £1.99/£2.99), and he's about the best modeller in this community.
It's just a shame that he's so into steam.
Go get yourself some books on 80's diesels Paul!
People are taking advantage of the supply and demand situation... if some people are prepared to pay £3 for a single wagon then they are making the most of that and taking their money from them.
Mike.
I totally agree with all you have said Smiley, Where pricing is concerned For me the price of Paul Hobbs stuff is just right, He get's my vote and my hard earned, any day.I think Paul Hobbs' pricing is more realistic than most (well a few of his items anyway, £1.99/£2.99), and he's about the best modeller in this community.
It's just a shame that he's so into steam.
Go get yourself some books on 80's diesels Paul!
Brilliant guy brilliant trainz.
amigacooke
Well-known member
There is virtualisation and emulation to take into consideration. If I choose I can go on a trip down memory lane and run my old Electron, Spectrum and Amiga software.
Southern Belle anyone?
I remember downloading that on me commodore 64, it was the first thing I ever downloaded!
