End of Support for Anything below TS12

[torino72]

I was reading the post in Freeware Announcements this AM about Weapons and Ammunition Storage Related Content and their reference to this link about support ending for 2010 and below as of September, 2014.

http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/Trainz_Life-Cycle_Policy

That triggered this "old timers PMS rant", so forgive me.

This means that the DLS will no longer accept any content not at a TS12 build number. Not sure what that is but it is above Build 3.3 where most of the non-route/session content released to the DLS is now being built for Builds 2.9 through 3.3. I think maybe 3.4 was still a 2010 build and 3.5 or above is TS12?

Since my current routes and content are split about 50/50 between 2006 and 2010 (Build 3.3) and I have no intent of ever using TS12 or TANE, I have this question. If I buy a copy of TS12 and register it just so I can continue to download content via the DLS "black pages" do I have to actually install it to have access to TS12 content? All I want to do is download limited content and back date it to 2010. I certainly am not going to install TS12 and all the updates that were needed to get TS12 to work to get access to the limited amount of North American scenery/rolling stock content at builds higher than 3.4 out on the DLS now.

And for you poor content creators who work for N3V for free, I guess you will be busy updating all your stuff again shortly? Or maybe N3V will do it for you. It seems to me that N3V's continued "latest-greatest" releases have run most of the content creators from the 2004-06 era into retirement. Were it not for Dave Snow (freeware) and Jointed Rail (payware and freeware) and a very limited number of occasional contributors there would be little new North American rolling stock or locomotive content coming to Trainz. There are still a number of skinners but few new content creators. What I don't like about the "latest-greatest" concept is (1) lack of backward compatibility, and (2) N3V never fixes all the bugs from their previous releases before they move forward to the next release which inevitably will have a whole new series of bugs to be worked before being abandoned for the next "latest-greatest". It is easier to bury your mistakes and move on.

And, as for losing N3V support for 2010 and below as of September, that is no big deal since I was never able to get any timely support anyhow.

I'll admit I'm still stuck in the "old days" (XP era and before). I much preferred Windows XP to Windows 7-8 (never touched the Vista crap). Were it not for needing Windows 7 to run my latest video card for Trainz, I'd still be using XP. I much prefer running Trainz to fixing Trainz problems. So, for those who prefer "technology" over running Trainz you should be very happy. For the rest of you, get ready for another round of frustration.

 

[RRSignal]

An option is for content creators to upload TS2009/TS2010 and earlier content to other sites in addition to or instead of the DLS. That's an option I've considered, as it's often been done with TPR.

It would be great if there was one, big alternative DLS or at least an automated way of downloading from third-party sites, something like what TrainzKuidIndex might do if it was further developed.

 

[oknotsen]

I was reading the post in Freeware Announcements this AM about Weapons and Ammunition Storage Related Content and their reference to this link about support ending for 2010 and below as of September, 2014.

O boy, don't tell me I am going to need those bunkers because of accidently making people aware of this :hehe:. I thought this was "common knowledge" that might needed a reminder.

Anyway,

This means that the DLS will no longer accept any content not at a TS12 build number. Not sure what that is but it is above Build 3.3 where most of the non-route/session content released to the DLS is now being built for Builds 2.9 through 3.3. I think maybe 3.4 was still a 2010 build and 3.5 or above is TS12?

3.5 and higher. So no uploads below that.

If I buy a copy of TS12 and register it just so I can continue to download content via the DLS "black pages" do I have to actually install it to have access to TS12 content?

No. Having the game registered to your account should be enough.
You might want to consider installing to make use of Content Manager since that gives more filter options etc than the black pages.
You probably are no longer able to use CM in TS2010, even if you have a FCT.

And for you poor content creators who work for N3V for free, I guess you will be busy updating all your stuff again shortly?

No. Or at least not all.
If you made assets correct with build 1.3 they still will not need an update.

The only thing is, which is why I made that comment, content creators are no longer able to upload with a lower build version than 3.5. That is why I decided to upload the part of my "bunkers" project that I considered "good enough" so those people with TS2010 without a higher version or FCT can quickly still download it before the door closes in September.

 

[stationmistress]

That's me done then. I am/was building a route for 2009/10 users. It's a rebuild of a 3.7 route that I thought us lesser mortals would enjoy. Jumping straight from 2.9 to 3.5 seems a bit heavy-handed to me. A gradual increase through 3.0 to 3.4 would have been a lot better. I'd better upload some of my assets that the route will need.

 

[martinvk]

Where's my box of paper tissues?

So official support for older software is ending. The sky will not fall nor will that old software suddenly stop working either. It will continue to work and since you don't plan on updating the underlying platform, it won't need to to be updated to take advantage of newer technologies. Of course as new vulnerabilities are discovered in that old technology, they won't be patched either but hey, to bad.

As for updating existing objects, where's the problem. If they were well made to start with, they'll not need an update. Otherwise, perhaps they should stay in the past. For those that should be updated, there are probably other things in the object that could use updating too.

Some of my older ones were pretty basic too and might need updating anyway. If and when I use one of them, I usually make a new version which automatically replaces the previous version, or not, depending on how I feel since they are all made for my benefit.

Alternative sites for old content have been advocated in the past. If someone else wants to assume the cost of maintaining it, go for it. At least we have the option of staying at what ever version we like and even of having all versions at the same time.

 

[JCitron]

Here's something that caught my attention on the referenced webpage:

"After the end-of-support date for a given product release, some or all of the above services may be immediately withdrawn at Auran's discretion. Any services which remain active may be withdrawn at any time thereafter..."

My question is, before we all get our knickers in a twisted knot, is will N3V enforce this ASAP, or will their be a roll-over period for content creators to update their content if they wish?



John

 

[mikeaust]

I cant see why there is a problem in uploading assets 2.9 and above.
There hasn't really been much "support" for the older versions anyway.

Just because people prefer to stay with a stable older version, and pay a fee to access the DLs to get those assets, what is the problem?
N3V probably make more from the FCT than the sale of versions as people have to continually pay out to access the DLS.
Where you might pay say $50m to $60 for a new version once every couple of years, The FCT is bringing in $25 every year, from people who dont want to move up to the current version. So the financial argument loses its validity.

The change of focus by N3V to the more fickle "gamer" customer as compared to the long term "simulator" customer is a bit worrying.
I think a lot of people who stuck with Auran and N3V over the good and bad years are a little cheesed off with the way things have gone.

The DLS has always been the main repository for assets and still has a lot of assets for the older versions. It is more reliable than 3rd party sites as they come and go, so content just disappears. But you can still find assets for your earliest version on the DLS.

So can somebody tell me why there is a problem with uploading for earlier versions???

Couldn't there be a requirement for older version assets to be marked as such so the 'gamers' wont download it?

The whole thing seems very short sighted to me. (end of rant)
cheers,
Mike

 

[oknotsen]

will their be a roll-over period for content creators to update their content if they wish?

Not sure what you mean, John, but:
The assets are not a service.
The old assets will stay on the DLS. If they work, they will keep working. If they were broken, they ill stay broken until someone updates them.
The main change is that the minimum build an asset needs to be updated to will change from 2.9 (minimum for TS2009) to 3.5 (minimum for TS12).

If this is a misinterpretation of your question / statement, please rewrite it so I understand.

I cant see why there is a problem in uploading assets 2.9 and above.
There hasn't really been much "support" for the older versions anyway.

It was a minimum of 2.9 because the older versions were no longer supported.
It becomes 3.5 in September because also TS2009 and TS2010 will longer be supported.

 

[shaneturner12]

Another note regarding end of support for TS2009/TS2010. The older .ja versions of the SnC/Murchinson/Carbon City addons (and possibly a few others if they are in the older format) will also no longer be supported by N3V. However, the new versions (the package format supported by TS12 SP1) will still be supported.

Shane

 

[RRSignal]

The end of support of pre-09 version made some sense because content was constructed very different and because error-checking was very lax before then. Ending support for TS2009 and TS2010 is certainly much more punitive and unnecessary, though it's not as if we didn't have ample warning.

Stationmistress, I'm in a similar position as you in that I'm building a TS2010 route (I would have considered TS12 but the features I need were too broken. Plus, I'd like to support as many versions as possible.) What will probably happen is that I'll offer my own content as a single download with the route for pre-TS12 versions. Should, by the time I'm done, any DLS-based content be "upgraded" to TS12 or above, I'll simply remove it or replace it.

 

[mikeaust]

The question is still why restrict uploading of older 2.9 and above, that are still in most cases able to be run in later versions.
It is nothing to do with "support". Look what support did to TS12.
Is the new version going to obsolete all previous versions so that the assets cant be used?
cheers,
Mike

 

[shaneturner12]

It's all to do with the improved error checking. Content made for unsupported versions simply will not be able to be accepted under the current error checking requirements, and in order to meet some of those means that the older versions cannot then use the content. Older versions of assets can still be downloaded in most cases, but only using the black pages or the 'Download This Version' command in TS12 SP1's Content Manager.

Shane

 

[mikeaust]

Okay thanks Shane,
cheers,
Mike

 

[RRSignal]

It's all to do with the improved error checking. Content made for unsupported versions simply will not be able to be accepted under the current error checking requirements, and in order to meet some of those means that the older versions cannot then use the content. Older versions of assets can still be downloaded in most cases, but only using the black pages or the 'Download This Version' command in TS12 SP1's Content Manager.

Shane

It is entirely possible to do this without obsoleting pre-TS12 versions: Build to the highest version but use a TB of the lowest version you wish to support. That's how most savvy content creators have done it so far.

While not scientific, most of the TS12-version content I've seen on the DLS doesn't need to be, indicating those creators simply don't know what they're doing (or, in some cases, was just blindly pirated content.)

 

[shaneturner12]

That could all be subject to change though, especially when TANE comes out. From what I've gathered, it's going to be running at a stricter checking level than TS12 SP1 - possibly at the Trainz Mac 2 level). Also, some tags that TS12 requires aren't supported/recognised in earlier versions.

Shane

 

[torino72]

It seems to me that any content (except possibly the routes/sessions/scenarios) built to 2.9 and above standards will work in TS12. I read somewhere that TS12 routes cannot be backdated to TS10. Also, I'm hearing that content (scenery, rolling stock, locomotives) at builds 2.9 through 3.3 do not have to be updated or changed in any way to continue working in TS12. As for TANE, who knows. I started reading some technical explanations on this and my eyes just glassed over. Unlike many of you, I could not see the advantage of the new TANE and some raised some disadvantages. What some are thinking possibly is that with TANE all the pre-TANE stuff may have to be rebuilt (i.e., not just changing a build number) anyhow?

I've concluded the new minimum version requirement for TS12 has more to do with selling a few more copies of TS12 than with the "support" or incompatibility issues. I'd about as soon eat rotten eggs than ask for any N3V support on 2010 now. My fresh eggs would have become rotten before I got any response. I have plenty of money, so dropping the cash for TS12 is not that big of a deal. I just don't want the hassle of installing the damned thing and all the updates that go with it to get it to work.

Those with games at builds lower than 3.5 cannot access any 3.5+ content via the CM or the "Black Pages" even with a first class ticket. Currently, as a 2010 user I can DL anything up through build 3.4 via either the CM or the "black pages". I can use any content for TS12 (builds at/above 3.5) available via any non-DLS site. Usually the only change required for 2010 is backdating the build number to 3.3. I think the N3V strategy is, "Let's require build 2.9 through 3.4 content to be uploaded at build 3.5 to force non-TS12 owners to buy a copy of TS12 if they want to get anymore new "free" content via the DLS."

 

[SuperFudd]

Less than 3 weeks notice? Swell!

I have been working on a TS2009 route for 3 years. I guess I will clean it up a bit and upload it incomplete. Maybe (or maybe not) I will someday finish it in TS2012. I hope I finish THAT version in time.

 

[martinvk]

... I read somewhere ... Also, I'm hearing that ...

Just where are you reading and hearing all this info?

As for TANE, who knows. I started reading some technical explanations on this and my eyes just glassed over. Unlike many of you, I could not see the advantage of the new TANE and some raised some disadvantages. What some are thinking possibly is that with TANE all the pre-TANE stuff may have to be rebuilt (i.e., not just changing a build number) anyhow?

Psst, If you don't see any advantages in TANE, don't buy it. I guess some see things differently. Oh, by the way, well made TS12 objects work just fine in TANE.

I've concluded the new minimum version requirement for TS12 has more to do with selling a few more copies of TS12 than with the "support" or incompatibility issues.

Interesting conclusion

... I just don't want the hassle of installing the damned thing and all the updates that go with it to get it to work.

So don't. No one says you have to take advantage of the new features.

Those with games at builds lower than 3.5 cannot access any 3.5+ content via the CM or the "Black Pages" even with a first class ticket.

Well if they haven't bought one of the newer versions, why would or should they get any content made for newer versions?

Currently, as a 2010 user I can DL anything up through build 3.4 via either the CM or the "black pages". I can use any content for TS12 (builds at/above 3.5) available via any non-DLS site. Usually the only change required for 2010 is backdating the build number to 3.3.

If the object requires one of the newer features, no amount of back dating will make it work. Granted some simple objects don't use or need these new features which is why some UTC objects still work just fine.

I think the N3V strategy is, "Let's require build 2.9 through 3.4 content to be uploaded at build 3.5 to force non-TS12 owners to buy a copy of TS12 if they want to get anymore new "free" content via the DLS."

Sounds like you wish Trainz was stuck at some earlier version so upgrade hassles can be avoided by everyone. Me, I would rather upgrade for the new features.

 

[cascaderailroad]

Really the only reason why not staying in 04 & 06, is upgrading to the better graphics, running a route in 09, 10, and 12 ...

Other than that 04 and 06 work well enough for surveyor.

Stick with what ever version you got, presently.

I create routes in TRS2006 for the simplicity of surveyor, creating things on my low end Vista, integrated graphics laptop.

I import my 06 routes, and run the routes on my high end desktop PC, to run them in better graphics.

 

[Fabartus]

It seems to me that any content (except possibly the routes/sessions/scenarios) built to 2.9 and above standards will work in TS12. I read somewhere that TS12 routes cannot be backdated to TS10. Also, I'm hearing that content (scenery, rolling stock, locomotives) at builds 2.9 through 3.3 do not have to be updated or changed in any way to continue working in TS12.

TRUE, TRUE (They changed the way the routes are stored, so data incompatibility--unless someone writes a 3rd party translator), and TRUE (Locos models were mainly impacted by TC3), further, most scenery things which passes TRS2006-SP1 error checkings have worked for me in TS12. Things get slightly more sticky with attached scripts, but most rolling stock continues the "I'm fine" parade, and TS12 seems most of the time to handle translation of trackside assets.

As for TANE, who knows. I started reading some technical explanations on this and my eyes just glassed over. Unlike many of you, I could not see the advantage of the new TANE and some raised some disadvantages. What some are thinking possibly is that with TANE all the pre-TANE stuff may have to be rebuilt (i.e., not just changing a build number) anyhow?

While the basic graphics models will work, the resolution and graphical techniques available in each release since the TRS family, even some in TC3 have frills which keep the mesh counts down, but give better visual effects.

The best assets will have to be next to tracks, and the older stuff set back a bit and will still look fine, so the people figuring all the old stuff is out are fooling themselves. If N3V had their wish, everything since TRS2004-SP0 would have LOD meshes... which they've aggressively pushed with the warnings in TS2009. The reason is it let's them load up the Graphics Card co-processors and frees up the main CPUs to manage the overall data flow. Not a bad goal, considering the staggering and pausing the TS12 experienced when they pushed further into enhanced visual effects. // F

I've concluded the new minimum version requirement for TS12 has more to do with selling a few more copies of TS12 than with the "support" or incompatibility issues.

I tend to agree with this firmly, but their cut off is definitely arbitrary--and Zec pointed out last month their DLS in-testing is running tougher than your CM gives you, no matter what. While agreeing they have a primary business motive looking over (as a computer geek) some of the 'new enforced mandatory defines' (e.g from 3.4 up, etc.) they have been adding to the N3V Wiki's (perhaps my repeatedly humiliating them about the state of the Wiki has done some good!) mean they want CC's to think over them and carefully specify such because defaults are potentially inadequate. Or I so surmise, but I've only seen a small smattering of such, and may be giving them too much credit... or not. I'm willing to grant good faith for future specs, but their failure to include a pre-processing stage with adequate translation of old model to new is quite stupid. AND IT'S COST THE AVERAGE USER UNTOLD HOURS OF AGGRAVATION! Sigh... (How do you fix an v1.3--v1.5 asset for TS09 and up at least 9 out of ten times? Add a mesh-table so it can find it [TC3 and before could!], and copy a texture up or down depending on where the CC put it in the original. Oh, yeah, don't forget the screenshot in TS09 and TS10--something else they could auto-generate. Just ask PEVs Mesh Viewer 2.exe!!!) // F

I'd about as soon eat rotten eggs than ask for any N3V support on 2010 now. My fresh eggs would have become rotten before I got any response. I have plenty of money, so dropping the cash for TS12 is not that big of a deal. I just don't want the hassle of installing the damned thing and all the updates that go with it to get it to work.

It's actually not all that bad. Just load it, let the auto-updater software install the next series of upgrades. Should take less than a couple of hours. Then import your TS10 UserData folder and go to bed. After some nookie and a good nights sleep, you will have a new Trainz to swear at! <BSEG> If nothing else, assuming you did get lucky, you'll have that to smile over the next morning. // F

Those with games at builds lower than 3.5 cannot access any 3.5+ content via the CM or the "Black Pages" even with a first class ticket. Currently, as a 2010 user I can DL anything up through build 3.4 via either the CM or the "black pages".

This is not news, you haven't paid for that license, you don't get the access. Not rocket science, just the way they rigged the game. We do want them to stay in business and keep the DLS services running, don't we? // F

I can use any content for TS12 (builds at/above 3.5) available via any non-DLS site. Usually the only change required for 2010 is backdating the build number to 3.3.

YEP, but you satisfied the contractual relations with THAT SITE, not N3V's so not a kosher gripe. // F

I think the N3V strategy is, "Let's require build 2.9 through 3.4 content to be uploaded at build 3.5 to force non-TS12 owners to buy a copy of TS12 if they want to get anymore new "free" content via the DLS."

YEP, it's a business plan. Only push-back could change it now, and it didn't happen soon enough. So... Preaching to the choir.

FYI, Most will retro back to TRS2006 too (Run PEVs tools, then strip out some of the newer stuff in texture.txt files like AlphaHint), but fancier scripted gadgets won't all the time. For example, Andi06 had to wait for TS12-SP1 hotfix 4 to release his diagonal crossing assets last year, for one case, and he and a few others have been pushing for other software capabilities to make other situations easier to implement. Anything that depends on a new software function, hook, interface and such in the libraries will not go back with full capability as the higher trainz-build source asset had, and the code will have to be edited to defang the call older Trainz won't know what to do with. Splines too, now that they are all track based may fail to convert back easily, but there one can resort to older practices and fiddle and likely get success. The package isn't breaking the components, just rearranging them in different associations going forward.

Personally, if I were a general asset content creator, I'd give some serious thought to boycotting uploading to the DLS unless they hold the threshold to v2.9 for general scenery items. Perhaps v3.4 or v3.7 for heavily scripted assets which need the tech level bump, etcetera. (Does make me wonder why HF4 didn't bump the trainz-build to v3.8 though! Perhaps it was a bug fix... consistency is NOT N3V's strong suit, like setting a standard in advance and telling people they've committed to it. They like Waffles, and breaking their own rules. // Frank