That was my impression when I tried it on a friend's computer.
Dovetail - N3V 1 : 0
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Makes me thankful that their decision to go exclusively with Steam turned me off from going with the predecessor Railworks before I discovered what fun it is to design and build maps and things.
I had thought about Railworks but then I ran up the mental tally of all the DLC I needed to purchase to run many of the activities. The TCO is quite high compared to Trainz at the time and never bothered.
You go to Humble Bundle and buy Bundles when they have them. I've gotten close to $1000 worth of DLC for Dovetail's games that way. Cost me about $70 total. You get Steam keys that you redeem for the DLC.
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Thanks, I never knew about that.You go to Humble Bundle and buy Bundles when they have them. I've gotten close to $1000 worth of DLC for Dovetail's games that way. Cost me about $70 total. You get Steam keys that you redeem for the DLC.
All Bundles
Our Bundles are limited-time collections of games, books, software, and more. Pay what you want and choose where your money goes, including to charity.
EverTrainz
Electric Blue
Even TS classic seems to be in a better position than Trainz. I’m not talking about momentum and future potential… since DTG has stopped development of TSC. I’m talking about right now, in reality. N3V seems to continue development of TRS but the fact they are a single-digit team really shows…
I’m talking about the community that they’ve built over the past decade and a half, or so, particularly in the UK. It’s almost like a monopoly if you look at all the talented creators that have time and money to throw towards research trips, sound equipment, and exclusive access to railways together operational details. It helps that TSC is payware-driven, and any thought of payware in Trainz is met with resistance and uproar.
It’s almost confusing that Trainz was the one to implement PBR, since at this point that’s the only thing keeping a lot of creators (including myself) with Trainz. If you look at sounds, physics, lighting even (skybox, pointlights), and vast array of content aspect like I mentioned, TSC has quite the upper hand.
N3V would be wise to take a strategy halfway between what they do now (incremental upgrades year to year) and what DTG did with TSW (completely new simulator) and create a vastly upgraded, modern simulator that turns a blind eye to backwards compatibility - which has been the very thing holding Trainz back for nearly a decade. It will take time for creators to repopulate the DLS with modern content to fit the new sim but N3V can concurrently work on “legacy” trainz ie content to keep revenue until the gap is filled. That’s just my 2¢ as a content creator who has been slowly eyeing TSW as a viable platform for high detail, realistic content.
I’m talking about the community that they’ve built over the past decade and a half, or so, particularly in the UK. It’s almost like a monopoly if you look at all the talented creators that have time and money to throw towards research trips, sound equipment, and exclusive access to railways together operational details. It helps that TSC is payware-driven, and any thought of payware in Trainz is met with resistance and uproar.
It’s almost confusing that Trainz was the one to implement PBR, since at this point that’s the only thing keeping a lot of creators (including myself) with Trainz. If you look at sounds, physics, lighting even (skybox, pointlights), and vast array of content aspect like I mentioned, TSC has quite the upper hand.
N3V would be wise to take a strategy halfway between what they do now (incremental upgrades year to year) and what DTG did with TSW (completely new simulator) and create a vastly upgraded, modern simulator that turns a blind eye to backwards compatibility - which has been the very thing holding Trainz back for nearly a decade. It will take time for creators to repopulate the DLS with modern content to fit the new sim but N3V can concurrently work on “legacy” trainz ie content to keep revenue until the gap is filled. That’s just my 2¢ as a content creator who has been slowly eyeing TSW as a viable platform for high detail, realistic content.
EverTrainz
Electric Blue
This all falls apart when you try to get a good cab ride session going. Sounds are aloof, a lot of driver control functionality is nonexistent in the cab.
I say this as a creator who has tried to push Trainz to its limits with scripting and advanced features. It’s not a matter of less talented creators - our Trainz community has tons of brilliant modelers and scripters - it’s a matter of the game engine being intrinsically limited. Only 16 sound channels at once in 2025? Give me a break.
I’ve tried to make my electric loco mirror this Train Simulator level of detail (below) in Trainz, and it is quite literally not possible. Skip to 3:10 seconds and listen to the sounds. This is first and foremost not possible because Trainz doesn’t even allow you to shut off the engine or start it up; the engine is always idling no matter what unless you want to go in and manually script it.
OK, fine - I’m able to script an engine startup and shutdown. However, listen to the cab audio and how it’s actually muffled and actually sounds like you’re inside the locomotive, instead of just a quietened version of the exterior audio. These are effectively separate cab sounds that I HAVE for my locomotive, but have no means of implementing in Trainz.
Another thing is physics, but that’s another can of worms. Currently Trainz is like Microsoft Paint - it’s got a very low bar to entry which makes it appealing to beginner creators and casual players. However, once you want to create a detailed simulation, you start to look towards more “GIMP” or “Photoshop” type programs, this being the content creation tools in TS
EverTrainz
Electric Blue
I speak this from a business POV but DTG has almost a 50:1 ratio of UK routes compared to Trainz. I think in terms of railway exposure and profitability not having the UK userbase is quite easily a bigger loss.
A lot of UK Trainz involves fantasy routes and I would love to see more prototypical routes.
KotangaGirl
Pre-Grouping Railways Nut
Diesel Railcar Simulator is interesting (UK). When they first started out it was very TS12 like and the controls were fairly simple. It's grown up a lot since and now the landscape and world building is of a much better standard. Control systems are more sophisticated and it's not just DMU's anymore as diesel locomotives and goods trains have been added to the sessions. I'm hopeless at driving diesels though, but I do give it a try.
That only matters if your only goal is to go for a ride.
Can the average user build his own route or modify and existing route?
Different sims for different folks.
2995Valliant
Well-known member
I'd wholeheartedly agree with some of that (sounds, lighting, in cab "toys"), but the more I learn the more I'm realising that Trainz underlying physics are actually very good and better than than the competition's IMHO, but I don't think anyone has yet worked out how to configure them properly - certainly for UK steam era stuff which is all I can really comment on.
I've recently acquired an excellent book on steam loco design, and a lot of what N3V have implemented is spot on once you've worked it out, which sometimes isn't necessarily easy or obvious. Other times it's so obvious I'm kicking myself for not working it out 15 years ago....
The fact a lot of features have to be implemented by scripts is not all bad either - yes it's harder work, but you have more flexibility than if stuff is just hard coded. Look at WagonX for example.
I'm not sure how backward compatibility is a problem either, other than perhaps demanding more processing power? What does ditching it allow that cannot otherwise be accomplished?
One of the reasons I think RW has survived as long as it has is due to the amount of content available - TSW has been around for sometime now but I think the userbase is still far smaller due to the lack of content.
EverTrainz
Electric Blue
I do remember working with you on troubleshooting the wagon engine specs and why they were so resistant to movement, and remember you mentioning how N3V's steam simulation is good. I can probably agree there though steam is not my area. It seems like TSW "Spirit of Steam" is a very lackluster simulation.
My biggest problem is that the old Auran method of enginespecs is that it is very locked-down. You "HAVE" to have 8 notches and even if you try to supercede that with script, it defaults to 8 at any given opportunity. I can't remember the specifics but it was a problem when trying to implement 36-notch tap changers on the Class 85. I believe it was something to do with, tapping W or X in external view would jump the throttle by (number of notches)/8, so in the case of 36 notches, it jumped between 4 and 5 notches. You could imagine how rough that would be in real life with the ammeter jumping into the red zone quite early at this rate - not realistic.
In terms of diesels, it seems like Hydraulics are quite poorly simulated, as well. Diesel electrics, no field divert or WSP, even if you tried to script it (since the ultimate engine force applied is stupidly tied to the throttle position - there is NO way to supercede this or intercept it with script. Otherwise physics would largely be a non-issue). I'm fine with scripting features but somethings can't even be scripted.
Sounds, I've beaten to death. No pitch control, only 16 channels, and it often lags and causes pops and jumps, which prevents proper transitions between multiple files with soundscript. Looping .WAV files would be a good solution that TS has had for decade(s).
Culling backwards compatibility would allow N3V to rebuilt all the janky outdated things in the config, such as physics for one (if they redo the physics engine now, they would bend over "backwards" to maintain "backwards compatibility" thus largely holding back what it's capable of ie will still stick with the crappy old brake and chamber/pipe simulations that completely ignore vacuum brakes, exhausters/ejectors, unfitted trains, twin-pipe systems, and individual leaks). How would these systems work with existing stock even if implemented? Also there is no multi-working standard. You put a new modern US-built SD70ACe next to a 1950s Class 40 BlueStar compatible loco and both would happily chug along in tandem. Multiple working should be an exception, not a rule (UNLESS the user plays in Simple mode).
Also in terms of TSW content they are welcoming new creators, I have spoken to JT about my Class 85 for their Beautiful new Preston-Carlisle north WCML route. DTG takes a 50% cut which is similar to what N3V takes.
EverTrainz
Electric Blue
To want to build routes for fun seems more like model railway aspect to me, rather than simulation. Trainz needs to pick which side it falls into, it's currently in this "jack of all trades, master of none" grey area.
I have owned Trainz since 2003 and TSW when it first appeared back in mid teen 2000's. So I agree with Evertrainz re TSW being solely a very effective and far more appealing simulator than Trainz. However on the flip side , being a world builder and editor, Trainz wins hands down. I have a go at driving in TSW every six months or so, and leave after 10 minutes of driving. Not because it is faulty, but simply that I am not into the driving side as much as the building side. In Trainz I sit and build and fix layouts of my own and others for hours on end. So it really depends on what one wants out of the games. "Whatever floats your boat" is very apt for the appreciation that one has for one or both games.
I have not used any railroad simulators apart from Trainz since the days of Railroad Tycoon and MSTS (both were quickly digitally shredded after Trainz appeared). I too spend most of my time building and not so much driving and then mostly to test what I have just built. To put it in a railroading context "Whatever stokes your firebox".
IsambardKingdomBrunel
Joined June 2001
Same as you and TSC wins hands down for the driving experience over Trainz. Plus Trainz is too US and Australian centric as far as payware DLC is concerned.
Poor UK DLC doesn't help either, donkeys years old routes ECML Kings X - Edinburgh, inaccurate routes Cornish Railways + Branches, payware loco's that use freeware DLS assets.
Not a very attractive trait, when payware is sold using freeware content. Freeware in Trainz is untouchable in regards criticism as far as i am concerned.
I only use Trainz really for the Auzzie routes by grazlash and FootplatePhil etc.
EverTrainz
Electric Blue
This is also a part of why I think culling backwards compatibility might be a necessary evil. Yes, it will hurt at first like ripping off a bandage, but it would allow any subsequent route to be repopulated with higher-detail content built to modern standards, instead of N3V becoming complacent with TRS2004 shed assets and scenery. Reading through some other "vent" threads it's evident that ending backwards compatibility would end the regular complaining about broken assets that have been strung along and painstakingly patched for over a decade. It'd seem like it does more harm than good at first, but in the long run it will (would...) be very future-proof to have a nice, clean, robust set of content that won't break for another decade - again though, ending backwards compatibility would be useful ONLY if N3V implement radical changes to the new content version's capability (physics, sound, functionality etc).
Right now, if anyone wants to create a route to modern levels of detail and period accuracy, they would have to remake all the scenery from scratch. Take for example my "pet" route Crewe to Euston 1965... Almost none of the stuff on the DLS would be able to be used except for a handful of housing assets and buildings built to modern standards by Mason Taylor and some other familiar names. All other stuff would have to be scratchmade in Blender and PBR-textured by myself or my content creation group, to achieve any degree of accuracy. Take for example Crewe after the 1960 electrification, or Rugby with the noticeable "AEI RUGBY" factory right next to the north Yard.
If a creator has to do all of this from scratch anyway, what is stopping them from approaching the excited, money-hungry DTG and working with them to build this route in the far more modern and capable UE4, for TSW?
Like you say, US and AUS content has a solid foot-in-the-door in Trainz, but when looking at CW, PLD, or AP's steam or diesel locomotives in TS, it would be a very long uphill battle to get any detailed route in Trainz where you wouldn't have to build everything from scratch. I have made my steam loco (Stanier black 5) and diesel loco (class 40, 45, 52) Blender models freely available to any interested creator to finish for freeware or payware - I have faith that these will see public release at some point through the finishing touches added by other creators.
However I personally have given up for the most part, I can't get a good/realistic simulation going in Trainz, and it's impossible to script my way out of this situation.
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Everyone has there own list of must-be-in-the-game assets. Too much US and AUS content you say and not enough UK? Well at least there is some UK. The rest of the world could use some love too.
So you have to build your own in Blender or another 3D modeling app, isn't that part of the fun?
EverTrainz
Electric Blue
where did I say too much?
I enjoy modeling locos and rolling stock. Over the past decade I’ve learned to love scripting and gathering/synthesizing my own sounds for them as well.
What I hate is running into brick walls that cannot be bypassed by any amount of scripting, for things that would be a non-issue in other simulators.
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