simulatortrain
jointed freaking rails
Ever heat a soda can and then put it in cold water? That.
Vacuum Packed Tank Car
- Thread starter Infraredbob
- Start date
Perhaps I should recount my experience of teaching about air pressure to my physics students. Usually I used an ordinary one gallon rectangular oil can or similar which would collapse progressively as the air was pumped out. One year I was given a cylindrical five gallon oil drum and we bravely tried it. As Cascaderailroad states a cylinder can stand a considerable pressure difference. We pumped it out and nothing happened. Touching it made it implode violently with a loud bang. I am sure my students that year well remembered the force of normal atmospheric pressure.
I hope this discussion isn't taking you away from JR work as much as it taking me away from Fostoria work....
It is really a factual assessment best measured in credibility, not likability.
That is not a reason my assessment doesn't work because constant outer pressure is presupposed within my assessment. Are you certain you understand my assessment explanations?
I think you mean at any point in time, the tank pressure is homogeneous. That can't be a reason my assessment doesn't work because it is presupposed in my assessment. With those last 2 statements, I am beginning to doubt whether you understand my explanation.
Incorrect, there are many weaker features on a tank car which will show deformation in a steam bubble collapse earlier than others. Only a pressure transient can create an instantaneous duration like the video.
I was a plant engineer for a natural oil refinery with its own tank car fleet and railroad sidings. I know how they fail from temperature transients from my occupation, Youtube notwithstanding.
AS THEY PROBABLY DID IN THE TANK VIDEO???? Sounds like your are agreeing with me about 80%. The only difference is that I assess a vessel on that hose was prepared with a vacuum and suddenly the isolation valve between the two was opened. A pump-out would have made a creaking shell noise and deformed the small weak appurtenances first.
Great example, Thank you. We see here how a steam bubble collapse takes several seconds or minutes, unlike the tank car video, with ever-progressing degradation apparent over time:
Video time = 1:10 - the drum is both sealed and cooled
Video time = 1:36 - Someone remarks "Oh my God, the stopper is getting pulled in!"
Video time = 2:22 - The drum metal begins to make noise
Video time = 2:24 - The drum implodes
There are warnings of the pending implosion over the course of 30 seconds, unlike our tank car video. It takes over a minute for the steam bubble collapse to take its full effect. Now a tank car has a lot more do-dads and places to deform on it (that that drum doesn't have) which would give us even more warning signs while the steam bubble collapse progresses.
And I am telling you a steam bubble collapse will not instantly fail or crush an entire tank car shell because 1) it has vacuum relief valves to draw out and attenuate the process and b) it is designed with sufficient mechanical integrity to take the full tension/compression of a freight train starting/stopping. Albeit the end result of a steam bubble collapse can be just as destructive as an instant de-pressurization.
You jumped into the thread right after cascade mentioned steam, and defended it, so I attributed you to the steam theory.
Yes a very similar process - its called instant de-pressurization with the VRV's removed or gagged.
It is really a factual assessment best measured in credibility, not likability.
That is not a reason my assessment doesn't work because constant outer pressure is presupposed within my assessment. Are you certain you understand my assessment explanations?
I think you mean at any point in time, the tank pressure is homogeneous. That can't be a reason my assessment doesn't work because it is presupposed in my assessment. With those last 2 statements, I am beginning to doubt whether you understand my explanation.
Incorrect, there are many weaker features on a tank car which will show deformation in a steam bubble collapse earlier than others. Only a pressure transient can create an instantaneous duration like the video.
I was a plant engineer for a natural oil refinery with its own tank car fleet and railroad sidings. I know how they fail from temperature transients from my occupation, Youtube notwithstanding.
AS THEY PROBABLY DID IN THE TANK VIDEO???? Sounds like your are agreeing with me about 80%. The only difference is that I assess a vessel on that hose was prepared with a vacuum and suddenly the isolation valve between the two was opened. A pump-out would have made a creaking shell noise and deformed the small weak appurtenances first.
Great example, Thank you. We see here how a steam bubble collapse takes several seconds or minutes, unlike the tank car video, with ever-progressing degradation apparent over time:
Video time = 1:10 - the drum is both sealed and cooled
Video time = 1:36 - Someone remarks "Oh my God, the stopper is getting pulled in!"
Video time = 2:22 - The drum metal begins to make noise
Video time = 2:24 - The drum implodes
There are warnings of the pending implosion over the course of 30 seconds, unlike our tank car video. It takes over a minute for the steam bubble collapse to take its full effect. Now a tank car has a lot more do-dads and places to deform on it (that that drum doesn't have) which would give us even more warning signs while the steam bubble collapse progresses.
And I am telling you a steam bubble collapse will not instantly fail or crush an entire tank car shell because 1) it has vacuum relief valves to draw out and attenuate the process and b) it is designed with sufficient mechanical integrity to take the full tension/compression of a freight train starting/stopping. Albeit the end result of a steam bubble collapse can be just as destructive as an instant de-pressurization.
You jumped into the thread right after cascade mentioned steam, and defended it, so I attributed you to the steam theory.
Yes a very similar process - its called instant de-pressurization with the VRV's removed or gagged.
cascaderailroad
New member
Go out and steam clean a tank car ... the car will instantly implode when the steam cools enough, and the vaaccuumm is created in the tank car, when the outside air pressure @ 38mb, and the tank car air pressure is -100mb ... a sudden critical failure will occur ... BOOM ... Not a gentle squeesh !
Fill the tank car with 30,000 gal of water, seal the lid, let the water out the bottoim valve, and the internal vaaccuumm will increase gallon by gallon, until the vessel reaches a critical 30,000 gallons of water vaaccuumm ... and when it reaches a critical point ... BOOM Not a gentle squeesh !
Doubtful that there are many a super high powered vaaccuumm pumps in the world, that are capable of creating enough vaaccuumm to cause the sudden implosion.
Steam and water cause sudden catastrophic failures ... You sure can argue till you're black and blue in the face, and still deny the truth (as you do).
As you are a plant engineer I am sure that if you don't vent a 500,000 gallon refinery tank, and then turn on the outlet spiggot ... the tank will eventually reach a breaking point of negative air pressure ... and BOOM ... not a slow gentle squeesh !
Fill the tank car with 30,000 gal of water, seal the lid, let the water out the bottoim valve, and the internal vaaccuumm will increase gallon by gallon, until the vessel reaches a critical 30,000 gallons of water vaaccuumm ... and when it reaches a critical point ... BOOM Not a gentle squeesh !
Doubtful that there are many a super high powered vaaccuumm pumps in the world, that are capable of creating enough vaaccuumm to cause the sudden implosion.
Steam and water cause sudden catastrophic failures ... You sure can argue till you're black and blue in the face, and still deny the truth (as you do).
As you are a plant engineer I am sure that if you don't vent a 500,000 gallon refinery tank, and then turn on the outlet spiggot ... the tank will eventually reach a breaking point of negative air pressure ... and BOOM ... not a slow gentle squeesh !
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norfolksouthern37
what's a normal map?
I am most certainly not agreeing with this, it was probably pumped out with a simple compressor. The outside remains without deforming because of the shape of the vessel (cylinder), then suddenly in a matter of a fraction of a second boom, it implodes. THIS is how it works in the real world. Happens to rail tank cars, happens to truck tanks, happens to standing cylindrical vessels... Certainly a plant engineer knows this. At no point was I ever attempting to explain the video posted above as being from steam cleaning. BUT I already said that a few times above.
Wait Wait wait... I am sorry, what? Of course it takes some time to remove the internal air, but then in a snap a catastrophic vessel implosion occurs. This is what I've been saying all along.
Since I am thinking about the video now, just how do you know they were not pumping on the tank for some time before the shown footage is displayed? hmm, I guess you don't. Wouldn't be possible to.
If you think I have been arguing over the amount of time it takes to remove the air and reach that violent end, you are very mistaken. I thought I was just discussing that 'violent end'. I think I made that very clear in all of my posts including the one where I mentioned the amount of forces on a theoretical object, NONE of that mentioned time from steaming and closing the hatches to the failure of the vessel. If that is your problem with what I was saying then you have missed the point by very very far.
Forget thinking that I am trying to prove the video did this or that, I already said that wasn't the case. I have no idea what they did to achieve what you see in the video, but in any case it produced an implosion. We should be able to agree on that.
Does the video show a tank imploding? Yes.
Is that also a good example of what happens when a closed tank is left with steam inside after x amount of time? Yes.
Does the implosion really happen that fast? Yes, once the tank reaches a fail point the implosion can cause the traincar to leap off the rails it is so fast and powerful.
you said
Except that it would, at some point after closing the tank and waiting however long it took for the steam to condense, it would snap into a crushed hulk in a blink. That is it, my final answer. If you think it is impossible then so be it. I don't really mind if you deny reality. I could go around and around with you on this, but I think you just don't want to understand what I am saying, so best to just leave it.
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cascaderailroad
New member
It really was the "Jolley Green Giant" that done stomped the tank car flat, with his big fat foot !
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Infraredbob
Bigfoot Believer
Or it was bigfoot. Whichever creature seems more likely to take its anger out on trains
cascaderailroad
New member
Nawhhh ... Bigfoot only stands @ 8 foot high, and wears a size 17 shoe (measured on the Branock Device).
It would take the likes of a huge critter, like the Michelin Tire Man, the Sta-Puff Marshmallow guy, King Kong, Godzilla, or Mothra, to stomp a big tank car flat !
Suck O Meter: http://www.adforum.com/creative-work/ad/player/34453917
It would take the likes of a huge critter, like the Michelin Tire Man, the Sta-Puff Marshmallow guy, King Kong, Godzilla, or Mothra, to stomp a big tank car flat !
Suck O Meter: http://www.adforum.com/creative-work/ad/player/34453917
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Infraredbob
Bigfoot Believer
True, unless bigfoot was on the inside and grabbed the interior of the car and simply pulled with all of his limbs. That would explain why we cant see anyone crushing it in the video
cascaderailroad
New member
There are guys who steam clean tank cars out, by climbing down inside the hatch, with full breathing apparatus on ... I could never do that (as I am too fat to fit in the hole) ... I am severely claustrophobic (afraid of Santa).
No a sphere is the most stable, like a diving bell.
There was no creaking in the video, so a maybe the change came on very quickly (as in like opening a ball valve)
Ok my friend, Let me tell you my experience as a plant engineer for a natural oil refinery which unloaded, cleaned, and loaded 12 tankers per day onsite:
1) No one steam cleans a sealed car because if it is sealed, the steam can't get in and the air and crap can't get out.
2) No one steam cleans a sealed car because if it is sealed, the steam will expand the air in the car to the point of causing a pressure explosion in the hose connection, or whatever is weakest.
3) Nobody seals a tank car once its steamed because the water and crap are still draining out when the steam is shut off, and sealing it would defeat the purpose of cleaning it out
4) No one seals a tank car after steaming because it was cleaned to put something into it immediately. Cleaning is reserved for the last minute because it is better to have the walls lined with the oil or chemical than be wet with water for purity purposes of the next load.
5) No one cleans a tank car and then keeps it empty and sealed because the residual moisture and air in the car will create rust that will contaminate the product to be put in for the next load.
6) No one steam cleans from the bottom nozzle, as is shown here in the video because you need that one to drain the condensate and crap.
7) No one keeps a steam hose attached to the bottom nozzle after cleaning, as shown in the video, because that hose is needed on the next car.
8) No one steams out a tank car with 3" to 4" hose, as shown here, because a less dangerous and cheaper smaller steam hose (3/4" to 1") easily accomplishes the objective.
9) No one uses black colored hose, like in the video, for steam hose as they are typically manufactured as red or orange to stand out as a potential hazard.
See the enumerated items above. Also please read the video's caption on Youtube.
That is why I tried to use the word collapse. Slow collapses do happen under the right circumstances - low surface to volume ratio - external cooling, etc...
No it was raining by coincidence, thats why all the more distant spectators had umbrellas. Would you bother to shower everyone if you could more easily direct firewater hoses at the tank car? Nonsense, this is a de- pressurization demonstration in the rain with gagged vacuum relief valves.
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cascaderailroad
New member
Do you really even have any clue of facts, and physics ?
A SLOW collapse ... lol ... Maybe on a Minute Maid-Juice Box !
Ball valves, steam bubble collapse, gagged vacuum relief valves, the tank pressure is homogeneous, constant outer pressure is presupposed within my assessment, only a pressure transient can create an instantaneous duration like the video. my assessment, are you certain you understand my assessment explanations ? ... OMG ... You saw it happen in the video !
Don't be one of "them" guys, a self proclaimed hired expert, testifying in a court of law, of who, what, when, where, and why, the trajectory 'magic bullet" that killed JFK, took so many twists and turns.
I think the reason why the tank car collapsed was because ... This stupid thread, with big long winded wurdz, completely SUCKED the living daylights out of it, from inside of the tank car, from inside out ... SUCKING so much ... turning it into a complete vaaccuumm, causing a SLOW implosion ... "Siiiiiiip" !
A SLOW collapse ... lol ... Maybe on a Minute Maid-Juice Box !
Ball valves, steam bubble collapse, gagged vacuum relief valves, the tank pressure is homogeneous, constant outer pressure is presupposed within my assessment, only a pressure transient can create an instantaneous duration like the video. my assessment, are you certain you understand my assessment explanations ? ... OMG ... You saw it happen in the video !
Don't be one of "them" guys, a self proclaimed hired expert, testifying in a court of law, of who, what, when, where, and why, the trajectory 'magic bullet" that killed JFK, took so many twists and turns.
I think the reason why the tank car collapsed was because ... This stupid thread, with big long winded wurdz, completely SUCKED the living daylights out of it, from inside of the tank car, from inside out ... SUCKING so much ... turning it into a complete vaaccuumm, causing a SLOW implosion ... "Siiiiiiip" !
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Seeing this discussion about steam condensing into water [supposedly] could cause an implosion, then what about the steam condensing into water in the cylinders of steam locomotives? If the steam valve and cylinder cocks are closed, would the steam condensing into water result into [at least] a [partial] vacuum?
cascaderailroad
New member
Its more about steam being extremely expansive ... and when steam cools in a sealed container, it contracts the air pressure inside the sealed container, causing a high powered vaaccuumm, equaly opposite to the original steam expansion pressure. So a steam vessel with 200 psi, could reduce its pressure to -200 psi ... just by cooling down.
I am certain that due to a steam locomotive cooling, one or two imploded from vaaccuumm, due to under trained crews, making mistakes. Many more exploded from excessive steam pressure.
I am certain that due to a steam locomotive cooling, one or two imploded from vaaccuumm, due to under trained crews, making mistakes. Many more exploded from excessive steam pressure.
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LOL, time for the kettle to call the pot black now, for "self-proclaimed expertness" in action. There is no such thing as -200 psi. Absolute 0 pressure is 0 psia or -14.696 psig. Let me paraphrase something written to me below: Do you really even have any clue of facts, and physics ?"
cascaderailroad
New member
All I hear in this thread, is a "giant sucking sound" !
You really sure do know how to beat a dead horse, to death ... and still manage to get the last tank car sucking word in ... Who really cares about your bloated opinion, flawed theory, and non-expert assessment, of how to suck a tank car, better than anyone else ?
Go steam clean the inside of a tank car ... and seal it shut ... it will implode eventually !
Rapidly crushing ... BOOM ... Just like in the video !
When you really think about why the video was created (filmed) in the first place ... It was a safety training video, on how to improperly steam clean, or improperly empty out a tank cars contents, all by neglecting to vent the top hatch to the atmosphere.
Why on earth would the RR go out and rent a Harbor Freight "Suck O Matic 9000" vaaccuumm pump. ... when common ol' Bill Bob, with his regular ol' siphon hose, or steam cleaner hose, could easily do the same simple job, by using a simple gravity siphon, or simple atmospheric pressure ? It just doesn't make sense that the RR employed a high powered vaaccuumm pump ... when the video is designed to replicate what happens when a worker improperly steam cleans, or improperly unloads a tank car ?
You really sure do know how to beat a dead horse, to death ... and still manage to get the last tank car sucking word in ... Who really cares about your bloated opinion, flawed theory, and non-expert assessment, of how to suck a tank car, better than anyone else ?
Go steam clean the inside of a tank car ... and seal it shut ... it will implode eventually !
Rapidly crushing ... BOOM ... Just like in the video !
When you really think about why the video was created (filmed) in the first place ... It was a safety training video, on how to improperly steam clean, or improperly empty out a tank cars contents, all by neglecting to vent the top hatch to the atmosphere.
Why on earth would the RR go out and rent a Harbor Freight "Suck O Matic 9000" vaaccuumm pump. ... when common ol' Bill Bob, with his regular ol' siphon hose, or steam cleaner hose, could easily do the same simple job, by using a simple gravity siphon, or simple atmospheric pressure ? It just doesn't make sense that the RR employed a high powered vaaccuumm pump ... when the video is designed to replicate what happens when a worker improperly steam cleans, or improperly unloads a tank car ?
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Infraredbob
Bigfoot Believer
Not that want to get involved in any internet argument, but I think we should just leave it up to the railroad to do the thinking and we should watch for our own enjoyment. That was my intention in the first place
John
John
cascaderailroad
New member
I agree ... This thread just SUCKS the life right out of me ... Nature abhors a vaaccuumm !
Infraredbob
Bigfoot Believer
Sorry we messed up your thread John, but my intent was to protect you from misinformation such as a) the pressure -200 psi, b) this video is steam accident training, c) a cylinder is the most stable structure, d) the water in the video was actively delivered, etc... As long as you don't believe everything you read in this thread I'm good.