Vacuum Packed Tank Car

Infraredbob

Bigfoot Believer
Hey guys check it out - these guys sucked all of the air out of this tank car to crush it like a soda can

I was thinking probably testing, but for what reasons would you do this on purpose?


John
 
You can do it by accident too. If the liquid is gravity draining to a a lower elevation from an unvented tank, the negative pressure developed in the tank ia suffice to do this. Also of course a pump can do this even better without any elevation chnage, its just a matter of not letting air in to replace the liquid. But it would not happen so quickly if it were an accident. Here it looks like they exposed the tank to a vacuumed vessel as a test or for spectacle. Operator error for not venting. It only takes -3 to -5 psig (-1/5 to -1/3 atmosphere) to do this, but you would have to overcome the vacuum releif valve. Don't worry they have insurance.

Its amazes me that a tank body which can take the full pulling tension of a freight train is so susceptible to negative pressure collapse.
 
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The same thing happens when you steam clean the inside of a tank car, then seal the hatch shut ... It collapses ... and happens more than you would think when cleaning out tank cars ... and this would serve to warn workers of the dangers of improper techniques of cleaning out tank cars
 
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oh yes it certainly would. especially if something like rapid temperature changes occurred. I am fairly certain the video above was a safety demonstration.

This collapse in the video happens in a split second. It is unlikely all the shell metal reached its yield point simultaneously from a cool down. First, the shell metal under higher stresses, by virtue of its geometric location in the shell, would deform several seconds or minutes before the balance of the metal deformed. Second, in this demonstration, I don't see any rapid temperature change going on, unless they are pumping liquid nitrogen into it. But still the geometry of the shell would afford a graduated collapse for a rapid temperature change. This isn't Star Trek where we can just suck the energy out of that size air and metal mass in a split second to cause a -3 psig deficit and deform most of the metal in an instance. This split second collapse was caused by a de-pressurization event: like someone opening a ball valve between the unvented car and a large vessel of equivalent size under a strong vacuum (like -10 psid), to overwhelm its vacuum relief valves.. (edit: I think the VRVs were removed because I don't hear any air noise.)

Wow, what a budget these guys must have to destroy expensive capital equipment for the purpose of a demonstration.
 
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With a vacuum inside a tank car and 15 psi pressing on the exterior (there are a heck of a lot of square inches of surface area on even a 40 foot tank car) its no wonder it collapses. Do the math gents (I would but the batteries are dead in my slide rule, lol).

Ben
 
With a vacuum inside a tank car and 15 psi pressing on the exterior (there are a heck of a lot of square inches of surface area on even a 40 foot tank car) its no wonder it collapses. Do the math gents (I would but the batteries are dead in my slide rule, lol).

Ben

The vacuum relief valve is sized so that a negative pressure of -3 to -5 could never develop under normal service. There would never be 15 psi external pushing against 0 psi internal, the collapse would happen at about -5 psig or greater vacuum and never get to that point (no slide ruler needed!).
 
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This collapse in the video happens in a split second. It is unlikely all the shell metal reached its yield point simultaneously from a cool down.

yes this is exactly what can happen. and is why special care must be taken when cleaning them with steam or unloading and not venting properly.

This isn't Star Trek where we can just suck the energy out of that size air and metal mass in a split second to cause a -3 psig deficit and deform most of the metal in an instance. This split second collapse was caused by a de-pressurization event: like someone opening a ball valve between the unvented car and a large vessel of equivalent size under a strong vacuum (like -10 psid), to overwhelm its vacuum relief valves.. (edit: I think the VRVs were removed because I don't hear any air noise.)

I know you didnt just hate on Star Trek....

I am sorry but you are incorrect. The steam inside the closed vessel will rapidly cool and an almost instant implosion can take place. unloading without venting can create a similar implosion.

This is an unfortunately common mistake with tank cars thus the safety demonstration. sure there are valves to prevent this, but you never know when humans are involved...
 
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If a 20,000 gallon tank car is filled with steam it will condense into about 11.8 gallons of water. The other 19988.2 gallons are nearly vacuum.

atmosphere is around 2120 lbs per sq ft

the tank is 2673.61 cubic feet so lets say a 35' long and 10' diameter for this example. so even just for the sides the force is

35*10*pi = 1452.5 sq ft.

1452.5*2120 = 3079300 lbs of force pressing inward on the tank... since steam cleaning will not remove all of the air that can be taken into account but still would be a very tremendous force exerted on the tank which is otherwise only reinforced for outward pressures.
 
yes this is exactly what can happen. and is why special care must be taken when cleaning them with steam and not venting properly.
If you inject steam without venting, pressure will build rather than decrease. You would need to displace the air with steam and then seal the car to get any implosion. I don't see that here, there is a non-vented hose connection and a sealed tank. Nobody steams a car without the steam connection being a vented connection, you open the port and stick the steam hose in, or else the air and contaminant would not escape!

Granted its raining but this car looks too wet to have just been steamed. And is that a steam hose on the ground connected to the tank? Why would someone keep the hose connected if they are trying to create negative pressure? If I want to implode a car, I would not keep any connections attached that could relieve the vacuum. The answer is this a non-vented vacuum hose connection to another vessel under vacuum.
I know you didnt just hate on Star Trek....
God no, I am pointing you would need an instantaneous temperature change to get a split second implosion on such a large structure via that mechanism. An energy depletion rate not available in our century.
yes this is exactly what can happen. and is why special care must be taken when cleaning them with steam and not venting properly.I am sorry but you are incorrect. The steam inside the closed vessel will rapidly cool and an almost instant implosion can take place. unloading without venting can create a much slower implosion.This is an unfortunately common mistake with tank cars thus the safety demonstration.
I am sorry too, please look at this video's caption on Youtube: "Uploaded on Sep 29, 2008 A railroad tank car demonstration imploding after placing a vacuum on the tank with the vacuum safety valves disabled or removed. If anyone has more of this video or similar videos let me know."
 
yes i understand that it was a demonstration, what i am trying to say is that is a demonstration of what can happen. there are several known cases - steam cleaning the car, and then closing the hatches with steam inside, will cause the immediate BOOM implosion, just for the things i listed above. no magic is needed, no energy depletion rate out of this world. a simple condensing of steam to water.

you were saying you could do it by accident, but i was pointing out something different, where you can, by accident, close steam in the tank and then boom its imploded in a split second. cascade actually had it right in his post. i was not meaning to imply that is what was happening in this video. you can even do this yourself, close some steam off inside of some tank and see what happens.
 
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yes i understand that it was a demonstration, what i am trying to say is that is a demonstration of what can happen. there are several known cases - steam cleaning the car, and then closing the hatches with steam inside, will cause the immediate BOOM implosion, just for the things i listed above. no magic is needed, no energy depletion rate out of this world. a simple condensing of steam to water.

you were saying you could do it by accident, and it would not be nearly as violent. that may be true for improper unloading, but i was pointing out something different, where you can by accident close steam in the tank and then boom its imploded in a split second. cascade actually had it right in his post. i was not meaning to imply that is what was happening in this video. but regardless of how they did it in the video, i still dont think it would take an instant removal of pressure inside, simply enough difference to bring it to crush tolerance. consider this is the same thing that happens to a submarine below or at crush depth... it doesn't happen slowly.

Your explanation uses the term "crush tolerance." This is not uniform throughout the metal shell, as implied, because different areas of the shell are naturally under more stress than others, no matter what the pressure state, just by virtue of the tank geometry, seam construction geometry, and welding. Therefore, stresses imposed by external pressure will yield the metal at the higher stress concentration areas before those naturally under lower stress. Similarly, the collapse of a steam bubble does not occur all at once throughout the interior volume of the shell because the outer wall is cooler than the central volume, particularly since it is raining. The steam bubble would collapse in over several seconds or minutes from the perimeter towards the center of the volume. Therefore, we have ever-decreasing pressure over the course of seconds acting over a metal surface with a variable "crush tolerance" (i.e. yield point). Under this scenario, the shell would deform in different places over many seconds, but not instantaneously to all shell surfaces at once. There is not an energy sink great enough evident in this video to collapse the steam bubble instantaneously, which is what would be needed to achieve the video's result. Therefore, this tank car did not implode from a temperature transient. For the same reasons, a steam accident does not implode with this rapidity.

Also the unvented hose connection, the sealed tank, and the exterior wetness of the shell do not support the simulation of a steaming or steam cleaning accident scenario, as previously explained. The details of circumstance and caption of the video assimilate a de-pressurization event, and have no evidence supporting an internal temperature transition was in progress.
 
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Your explanation uses the term "crush tolerance." This is not uniform throughout the metal shell, as implied, because different areas of the shell are naturally under more stress than others, no matter what the pressure state, just by virtue of the tank geometry, seam construction geometry, and welding. Therefore, stresses imposed by external pressure will yield the metal at the higher stress concentration areas before those naturally under lower stress. Similarly, the collapse of a steam bubble does not occur all at once throughout the interior volume of the shell because the outer wall is cooler than the central volume, particularly since it is raining. The steam bubble would collapse in over several seconds or minutes from the perimeter towards the center of the volume. Therefore, we have ever-decreasing pressure over the course of seconds acting over a metal surface with a variable "crush tolerance" (i.e. yield point). Under this scenario, the shell would deform in different places over many seconds, but not instantaneously to all shell surfaces at once. There is not an energy sink great enough evident in this video to collapse the steam bubble instantaneously, which is what would be needed to achieve the video's result. Therefore, this tank car did not implode from a temperature transient. For the same reasons, a steam accident does not implode with this rapidity.

i know you like your theory, but it doesn't work that way in the real world. there are many reason why it doesn't work. for one, the outer pressure is constant, it doesn't change. the internal pressure will be very even throughout during the process. it is only when one of the weak points gives would the instant failure occur. Try it for yourself. or even just go to youtube and look it up plenty of people have done this and taken video of it for their own satisfaction.

here is an example of imploding a 55 gallon drum by using an air pump, as they probably did in the tank video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogY7rRIdrxI

here is an example of a similar drum using steam:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsoE4F2Pb20

you can use the many links referring to other videos to continue if you wish.

Also the unvented hose connection, the sealed tank, and the exterior wetness of the shell do not support the simulation of a steaming or steam cleaning accident scenario, as previously explained. The details of circumstance and caption of the video assimilate a de-pressurization event, and have no evidence supporting an internal temperature transition was in progress.

I was only trying to tell you that an instant crush like what you see there is very much possible and under what circumstances due to the huge forces involved. whether or not they did xyz in that video i dont know. i didnt say the video was from steam cleaning, i said it was a good demonstration of tank implosion, and it is, from either steam cleaning or unloading. i will not say that again. given that, i am fairly certain that there was no instant depressurization in the video either, but a very similar process in the works.
 
Your explanation uses the term "crush tolerance." This is not uniform throughout the metal shell, as implied, because different areas of the shell are naturally under more stress than others, no matter what the pressure state, just by virtue of the tank geometry, seam construction geometry, and welding. Therefore, stresses imposed by external pressure will yield the metal at the higher stress concentration areas before those naturally under lower stress. Similarly, the collapse of a steam bubble does not occur all at once throughout the interior volume of the shell because the outer wall is cooler than the central volume, particularly since it is raining. The steam bubble would collapse in over several seconds or minutes from the perimeter towards the center of the volume. Therefore, we have ever-decreasing pressure over the course of seconds acting over a metal surface with a variable "crush tolerance" (i.e. yield point). Under this scenario, the shell would deform in different places over many seconds, but not instantaneously to all shell surfaces at once. There is not an energy sink great enough evident in this video to collapse the steam bubble instantaneously, which is what would be needed to achieve the video's result. Therefore, this tank car did not implode from a temperature transient. For the same reasons, a steam accident does not implode with this rapidity.

Also the unvented hose connection, the sealed tank, and the exterior wetness of the shell do not support the simulation of a steaming or steam cleaning accident scenario, as previously explained. The details of circumstance and caption of the video assimilate a de-pressurization event, and have no evidence supporting an internal temperature transition was in progress.
A tube is the most stable of all containers, like a submarine is a tube, the vaaccuumm can get to several hundred, or several thousand "sucks per square inch", before any creaking is noticed ... then a sudden critical structural fatal failure occurs ... and instantaneously a tube will collapse ... BOOM ... Just like it did in the video. Steam cleaning will do this, and that is a fact. It will cause sudden catastrophic implosion !

Plainly ... You don't know what you are talking about !

You are assuming the the hose was a air vaaccuumm hose ... when it could have been a steam hose, or a water siphon hose ... when a tank car cap is sealed ... it will implode, suddenly, due to liquid, air, or steam vaaccuumm !

Did you ever see a: S_L_O_W implosion, explosion, demolishion ... That's right ... you haven't ... because: S_L_O_W implosions, explosions, demolitions do not exist.

They were wetting down the tank to further cause a rapid cooling, speeding up the sudden catastrophic implosion, maybe they dint' want to wait all day for it to suddenly collapse.
 
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