Trainz and DRM

[cascaderailroad]

Correct me if I am wrong:

DRM stops you from:

1) Changing the whistle volume, hornsound ...etc ... on the NKP Berkshire.
2) Weathering, Reskinning, and correcting the misspeeling of the "Nickel" Plate Road caboose.
3) Locks you out of altering all files on DLC assets.
4) Does it lock you out of reskinning, and reworking ALL of Trainz: bell/engine/horn sounds ?
5) If, and when, N3V fails, at TS14 Kickstarter, and should N3V ever go bankrupt, all your DLC assets will stop working, and the game will stop working all together, because you can not connect to their server ?

Trainz used to be a fun game ... Now they lock you out of doing all the fun stuff on your own PC, of things that you could do on other versions.

This just plain sucks !

 

[geophil]

Look at Apple, Google & Microsoft products – Phone Apps etc – they literally know everything you do, when and where you are doing it and with whom – way too much information!

It's their business model, and DRM is just a cheap excuse for collecting your data. I still have hopes, though. For instance, the rejection of Windows 8.* by so many of us makes me feel a bit optimistic. And Edward Snowden helps too, of course.

 

[clam1952]

It's only DLC that's affected at present, nothing else, all other methods are worst case probably highly unlikely might happen scenarios. Like it or not DRM is not going away, the question that has been raised here is what form is it going to take. Hopefully It may not be anywhere near as severe as some seem to think, either way although I'm not overfond of DRM, I will tolerate it and it's not going to put me off using Trainz or supporting future development.

The NTK stuff been fixed as apparently have other problems with that DLC.

In actual fact the only thing stopping people editing DLC is the fact the pev's Images2TGA does not work on the DLC .texture files, that I'm afraid, as it's a third party application and not an officially sanctioned tool is not really N3V's concern, without Pev creating images2TGA, no builtin content would have been editable if it had .textures for 2009 and 2010.
With other games it's accepted that it's up to the third party tool creators, if they wish to or are still interested and if it's possible, to modify their applications to suit modifications to the game, depending on what's been changed and possibly why, that's not always possible to do.

The actual problems.
Put simply if you think outside the box, you can edit the config or any text file of SP1 DLC and then import, CM will accept that albeit with missing texture warnings, what you cannot do is convert the .textures in the DLC to the TGA and texture.txt format with images2tga, rendering the exercise pointless. Images2TGA just displays a blank screen and there is nothing to save. Note this only at this present time affects DLC, everything else in SP1, excluding a few bugs is the same as normal.
DLC Routes however are another issue. You can unlock them however you loose the terrain completely, you can though use sessions to create your own modifications, so long as you don't change anything on the route layer, which you can't with SP1 DLC anyway.

There may well yet be a solution to these problems that hasn't been found yet, remember WindWalkr stated way back that it wasn't their intention to stop people editing stuff.

Note I don't normally edit other peoples stuff unless there is something that actually needs fixing, I just tried this out to see what the actual issues with editing DLC were, rather than assuming anything.

 

[RRSignal]

Thanks for responding, Tony. I hope you understand that I cannot make a pledge or any other financial commitment to the project without a firm answer as to exactly what kind of DRM is going to be implemented.

 

[WindWalkr]

Just to jump in with a few technical details:

DRM stops you from:

Okay, for starters, "DRM" is a heavily overused term to the point that it's nearly meaningless. It is accurate to say that it does give finer-grained control over what can and can't be done with the content, but we should distinguish between "the current implementation" and "DRM as a concept" because it's fairly straightforward for us to change minor details and (as I've indicated in the past) we are looking into the various concerns and taking appropriate steps.

The rest of my answer here refers to the implementation in your hands currently (in TS12 SP1), not to DRM as a concept, and not necessarily to future implementations.

1) Changing the whistle volume, hornsound ...etc ... on the NKP Berkshire.

You cannot modify the original payware files directly, but you can make an aliased version that depends on the payware files for the model, textures, etc. but substitutes in your own horn or whatever. This means the simple approach of "open the original file and modify it" won't work, but we discourage that approach even without involving payware. In the future I'd like to see this made simpler by allowing in-surveyor reconfiguration of things like sounds and engine specs.

2) Weathering, Reskinning, and correcting the misspeeling of the "Nickel" Plate Road caboose.

You would have to make an aliased version of the asset and use texture replacement. That's how you should normally approach reskinning anyway, so status quo.

As far as using the original texture files as a stencil for painting over, that opens up a whole can of worms. It's never been possible with any JA-packaged Trainz content, although there are third-party tools which have made this possible. It's also unlikely that this is legal unless explicitly blessed by the content's creator. Our current payware packaging system also does not provide any explicit support for this kind of thing, though there's certainly nothing stopping the original creators from distributing the necessary stencils if they choose to do so, and there's nothing stopping you from reskinning without the stencils.

As far as redistributing the payware mesh files, that's never been acceptable.

3) Locks you out of altering all files on DLC assets.

Correct.

4) Does it lock you out of reskinning, and reworking ALL of Trainz: bell/engine/horn sounds ?

This appears to be a rewording of the above. You cannot modify the original but you can make your own variant which uses the original mesh/texture but a different horn sound or other details.

5) If, and when, N3V .. should N3V ever go bankrupt, all your DLC assets will stop working, and the game will stop working all together, because you can not connect to their server ?

TBQH, if we all dropped dead today and nobody took over the IP, then yes, the payware assets would stop working after a month or so. Multiplayer, chat, the DLS and forums would also fail within a few weeks. The game itself would continue working until you upgraded to an incompatible computer/OS. To be fair, though- that event is exceedingly unlikely and there are ways to mitigate even that problem, though we haven't taken those steps as yet.

kind regards,

chris

 

[RRSignal]

Just to jump in with a few technical details:




Okay, for starters, "DRM" is a heavily overused term to the point that it's nearly meaningless. It is accurate to say that it does give finer-grained control over what can and can't be done with the content, but we should distinguish between "the current implementation" and "DRM as a concept" because it's fairly straightforward for us to change minor details and (as I've indicated in the past) we are looking into the various concerns and taking appropriate steps.

The rest of my answer here refers to the implementation in your hands currently (in TS12 SP1), not to DRM as a concept, and not necessarily to future implementations.




You cannot modify the original payware files directly, but you can make an aliased version that depends on the payware files for the model, textures, etc. but substitutes in your own horn or whatever. This means the simple approach of "open the original file and modify it" won't work, but we discourage that approach even without involving payware. In the future I'd like to see this made simpler by allowing in-surveyor reconfiguration of things like sounds and engine specs.




You would have to make an aliased version of the asset and use texture replacement. That's how you should normally approach reskinning anyway, so status quo.

As far as using the original texture files as a stencil for painting over, that opens up a whole can of worms. It's never been possible with any JA-packaged Trainz content, although there are third-party tools which have made this possible. It's also unlikely that this is legal unless explicitly blessed by the content's creator. Our current payware packaging system also does not provide any explicit support for this kind of thing, though there's certainly nothing stopping the original creators from distributing the necessary stencils if they choose to do so, and there's nothing stopping you from reskinning without the stencils.

As far as redistributing the payware mesh files, that's never been acceptable.




Correct.




This appears to be a rewording of the above. You cannot modify the original but you can make your own variant which uses the original mesh/texture but a different horn sound or other details.




TBQH, if we all dropped dead today and nobody took over the IP, then yes, the payware assets would stop working after a month or so. Multiplayer, chat, the DLS and forums would also fail within a few weeks. The game itself would continue working until you upgraded to an incompatible computer/OS. To be fair, though- that event is exceedingly unlikely and there are ways to mitigate even that problem, though we haven't taken those steps as yet.

kind regards,

chris

Thanks for the post. Minus the dramatic intro ) ), thanks for confirming what even the present DRM would do.

I also know what you're tilting at when you talking about "mitigate even that" and ... well just...haha...

 

[RRSignal]

--whoops, double post, sorry--

 

[martinvk]

...
5) ..., and the game will stop working all together, because you can not connect to their server ?

...

This just plain sucks !

Where do you get all those facts? Wish my crystal ball was that clear.

 

[RRSignal]

Where do you get all those facts? Wish my crystal ball was that clear.

It's common knowledge. It doesn't matter if it's one-time activation (like FSX or most Steam games) or once-a-week, once-a-month, once-you-run-the-game, it's all the same. Chris confirmed it, even if couching it in humorous or (you'd think) unlikely terms.

 

[WindWalkr]

It's common knowledge. It doesn't matter if it's one-time activation (like FSX or most Steam games) or once-a-week, once-a-month, once-you-run-the-game, it's all the same. Chris confirmed it, even if couching it in humorous or (you'd think) unlikely terms.

To correct you here, the item that martinvk is quoting is completely incorrect. You're confusing that with my answers on other aspects of the original question.

kind regards,

chris

 

[RRSignal]

To correct you here, the item that martinvk is quoting is completely incorrect. You're confusing that with my answers on other aspects of the original question.

kind regards,

chris

The original question stated that the DLC will stop working in the authorization servers are unable/unwilling/turnedoff/setnottoreactivatecontent. All of which is true. You are free to break this down as you will, but all users need to know that, as always the case with software, anything goes.

 

[amigacooke]

Can I suggest that those for whom DRM is an over-riding concern might like to take a look at Open Rails.

 

[matruck]

Okay, for starters, "DRM" is a heavily overused term to the point that it's nearly meaningless. It is accurate to say that it does give finer-grained control over what can and can't be done with the content, but we should distinguish between "the current implementation" and "DRM as a concept" because it's fairly straightforward for us to change minor details and (as I've indicated in the past) we are looking into the various concerns and taking appropriate steps.

The rest of my answer here refers to the implementation in your hands currently (in TS12 SP1), not to DRM as a concept, and not necessarily to future implementations.


1) Changing the whistle volume, hornsound ...etc ... on the NKP Berkshire.


You cannot modify the original payware files directly, but you can make an aliased version that depends on the payware files for the model, textures, etc. but substitutes in your own horn or whatever. This means the simple approach of "open the original file and modify it" won't work, but we discourage that approach even without involving payware. In the future I'd like to see this made simpler by allowing in-surveyor reconfiguration of things like sounds and engine specs.


2) Weathering, Reskinning, and correcting the misspeeling of the "Nickel" Plate Road caboose.


You would have to make an aliased version of the asset and use texture replacement. That's how you should normally approach reskinning anyway, so status quo.

As far as using the original texture files as a stencil for painting over, that opens up a whole can of worms. It's never been possible with any JA-packaged Trainz content, although there are third-party tools which have made this possible. It's also unlikely that this is legal unless explicitly blessed by the content's creator. Our current payware packaging system also does not provide any explicit support for this kind of thing, though there's certainly nothing stopping the original creators from distributing the necessary stencils if they choose to do so, and there's nothing stopping you from reskinning without the stencils.

As far as redistributing the payware mesh files, that's never been acceptable.


3) Locks you out of altering all files on DLC assets.


Correct.


4) Does it lock you out of reskinning, and reworking ALL of Trainz: bell/engine/horn sounds ?


This appears to be a rewording of the above. You cannot modify the original but you can make your own variant which uses the original mesh/texture but a different horn sound or other details.

But with TS12 SP1 the above will also apply to Payware Route's in that they can not be modified at all ?. I did read sumwhere that the S&C Route is now no longer able to be modified for your own use.
Cheers Mick.

 

[AntonyVW]

Just to jump in with a few technical details:






TBQH, if we all dropped dead today and nobody took over the IP, then yes, the payware assets would stop working after a month or so. Multiplayer, chat, the DLS and forums would also fail within a few weeks. The game itself would continue working until you upgraded to an incompatible computer/OS. To be fair, though- that event is exceedingly unlikely and there are ways to mitigate even that problem, though we haven't taken those steps as yet.

kind regards,

chris

On this last point. Ive already experienced what happens when a company with DRM goes belly-up. I lost use of my game.

 

[amigacooke]

On this last point. Ive already experienced what happens when a company with DRM goes belly-up. I lost use of my game.

One of the pro-DRM arguments is that patches will be released to enable independent use if this happens. Which game was it please, so we can see what really happens in this type of situation?

 

[ftldave]

Can I suggest that those for whom DRM is an over-riding concern might like to take a look at Open Rails.

No thanks. OR's not done yet, is missing essential functions, and it may never ever be completed. Good luck to the chaps working on it, but ... And not all of us believe that N3V's DRM will be the end of computer simulation life as we know it. :hehe:

 

[Scitimar]

One of the pro-DRM arguments is that patches will be released to enable independent use if this happens. Which game was it please, so we can see what really happens in this type of situation?

Not a game, but a similar situation here > http://www.lumonix.net/. Kees is a great guy and made beautiful software, but sometimes it's better to have a regular income [ for paying the bills ] than to continue to lose out because some won't play fair.

Puppetshop still works, my world did not end

Now I'm done

 

[AntonyVW]

One of the pro-DRM arguments is that patches will be released to enable independent use if this happens. Which game was it please, so we can see what really happens in this type of situation?

I'll see if Ive still got the discs. But basically it was a small company with little resources. The company were losing money before the game was released. It didnt sell to well and the company went into receivership. Things like the servers were shut down quite quickly as they were not in the interests of the receivers to keep running.

 

[norfolksouthern37]

The original question stated that the DLC will stop working in the authorization servers are unable/unwilling/turnedoff/setnottoreactivatecontent. All of which is true. You are free to break this down as you will, but all users need to know that, as always the case with software, anything goes.

except he said:

5) ..., and the game will stop working all together, because you can not connect to their server ?

which is incorrect.

 

[amigacooke]

I'll see if Ive still got the discs.

Thanks for looking.