Railworks or Trainz? Whats your opinion on both?? Since they have their disadvantages

Oh, I am well awar ot rh Mods, etc, idomi4s but still entitled to get my tuppence worth in as they say! It does keep coming up here and is still the same stuff and how many times must we constantly see this Trainz v Railworks thing. Nothing new in this merry-go-round. Now back to my railway project build and something more positive and on Trainz!
 
Multiplayer is a step toward "real" railroading and simulation.

Harold

I do agree that this does remove the artificially not-so-intelligent computer drivers from the equation, but this really has to come above the straight game-level found in the MMMO and other shooter-style games. With a real mp-rail sim, you need to have a real dispatcher-type system in addition to good performance and people understanding the workings of the railroad.

I suppose that there could be different levels such as beginner/easy, intermediate, and "expert" or advanced. The easy and intermediate, however would need some kind of AI to act as a dispatcher while the users just drive around. The intermediate would have additional features enabled, and the advanced or expert mode would have the full-stop simulation with user-controlled dispatcher, and all drivers having full control of their trains. This scenario would also have various levels of derailments where the expert mode would be the most realistic, meaning that the goof-ups will cause a derailment or picked-points. The locomotives would have two levels of control, just like we have now, with CAB-mode for the intermediate and advanced mode players, and DCC for the easy/beginner mode.

So to get the details and smooth running, we need a program that is far above what we have today, and personally I don't think that RW or even Trainz is really capable of this right now. Perhaps we're working in the right direction, but we've got a long way to go. Besides, our network and computer speed isn't really where it is for a really smoother operation without some kind of compromise. One of the biggest problems is lag, which plagues all of the gaming platforms, when playing online games no matter what game is being played. Other issues include the great disparity in hardware, thus game consoles having an advantage here, because hard drive speeds are different due to hardware, software, and drive fragmentation. The CPUs are different as well, causing different speeds and through-put as the data is transfered from the network to the display. What maybe fast performance for a local route is not always best for multiplayer.


John
 
I have reservations about the concept of multiplayer in any train simulator. I haven't bothered with the feature in Trainz and the MMO heavy side of Run8, with by the developer's own admission on TS.com a somewhat inferior SP experience being on offer has given me reservations about the new title.

It is perfectly possible to code in a realistic and dynamic AI to a train sim product. The German Zusi programme has had this for years, it will even intelligently re-route or regulate trains according to priority when late running occurs. If a train does get stuck or you get a standoff you can simply delete it. The AI in MSTS which Kuju pretty much based that in RS/RW on, is fairly crude but the whole point is it removes the responsibility for setting the path for the player train from the driver, as it should be on any prototype fully signalled route. That is what Trainz needs and yes there may be workarounds via complex scripting or session commands but these are not for the average user. It needs to be built in the core. Kings Cross to York and later Newcastle is a masterful creation in both TS2010 and TS12, but the scope of the route is ruined by having to despatch your own train along a 100 MPH multiple track main line.
 
I am actually a brand new owner of TrainZ and purchased it yesterday. I know comparison threads like this can be grueling, since I am also involved in flight sims, but this thread actually helped me make a decision as to the Railroad sim that best suited what I wanted. Now to start learning about Trainz. I also liked the attitude of the posts on this forum, and found them very helpful, which was also another deciding factor for me.
 
So to get the details and smooth running, we need a program that is far above what we have today, and personally I don't think that RW or even Trainz is really capable of this right now. Perhaps we're working in the right direction, but we've got a long way to go. Besides, our network and computer speed isn't really where it is for a really smoother operation without some kind of compromise. One of the biggest problems is lag, which plagues all of the gaming platforms, when playing online games no matter what game is being played. Other issues include the great disparity in hardware, thus game consoles having an advantage here, because hard drive speeds are different due to hardware, software, and drive fragmentation. The CPUs are different as well, causing different speeds and through-put as the data is transfered from the network to the display. What maybe fast performance for a local route is not always best for multiplayer.


John

Well said. I've saw Run8 first video which is 90 mb, and was surprised how much lag is in that . I was scared. The LAG makes worse the game even with superior graphics and realistic detailments. Ts12 on my laptop has less lag than in that video. When the framerates clocking at 30-40-50 FPS and still experiencing lag, that something I can blame on the powerless CPU.
 
Well said. I've saw Run8 first video which is 90 mb, and was surprised how much lag is in that . I was scared. The LAG makes worse the game even with superior graphics and realistic detailments. Ts12 on my laptop has less lag than in that video. When the framerates clocking at 30-40-50 FPS and still experiencing lag, that something I can blame on the powerless CPU.

I saw the video too and I too will stay away from that product for some time until the kinks are worked out. I chocked up the LAG to the video recorder. I know that FRAPS can kill some, or sometimes a lot, of the performance while the data is being streamed to disk, but if you add in the heavy program code with the video product making the demo really poor, this is a different story.

TS12 runs very well on my systems, both my laptop and my desktop as well. The stutters usually happen when going into really built-up areas, but I've discovered, as I've been cleaning content, that some of the older content can cause this particularly if there are errors in the assets, which are not caught by CM but still exist. I've seen a bigger performance gain since I've removed some corrupted items, with one item actually causing my system to crash.

John
 
As much as i love playing trainz, railworks has SUCH better graphics when comparing the two. But i would prefer trainz over railworks
 
It is perfectly possible to code in a realistic and dynamic AI to a train sim product. The German Zusi programme has had this for years, it will even intelligently re-route or regulate trains according to priority when late running occurs.

The basic idea of a successful AI in railway simulation is fairly simple: Do as the prototype does. Train movements follow rules. Dispatching follows rules. Apply these rules, combine the two, and your AI will be working. That's what Zusi did from the beginning. I admit you need a thorough understanding of the prototype for this approach to succeed. From their background, mainstream game developers may have a different view on AI, and I guess that's were the problem starts.

I think Trainz is much closer to Zusi here than to Kuju/MSTS or Kuju/RS-RW. in Trainz, there is no fundamental difference between player and AI trains, signals work properly, all trains observe signal aspects, track markers fill in gaps.

What Vern is missing in Trainz is the "working timetable" (British lingo). In Zusi this is a component which combines infrastructure and train data, very much like the prototype again. In my impression Trainz scenario building leaves the prototype path, in favour of something that may produce more play value. The question is: Play value for whom? I am aware that the Trainz approach with individual shunting or a working industrial production chain provides excellent entertainment to many users. Not very prototypical but who cares. Nevertheless, the foundation for creating a working timetable does exist in Trainz, it's only not exploited at the moment, as I see it.
 
If you "play" with all the trainsims coming back to Trainz is inevitable.

Why? It is more FUN to play in the sandbox. Best game engine in trainsim world. Does so much more.

Harold
 
The basic idea of a successful AI in railway simulation is fairly simple: Do as the prototype does. Train movements follow rules. Dispatching follows rules. Apply these rules, combine the two, and your AI will be working. That's what Zusi did from the beginning. I admit you need a thorough understanding of the prototype for this approach to succeed. From their background, mainstream game developers may have a different view on AI, and I guess that's were the problem starts.

I think Trainz is much closer to Zusi here than to Kuju/MSTS or Kuju/RS-RW. in Trainz, there is no fundamental difference between player and AI trains, signals work properly, all trains observe signal aspects, track markers fill in gaps.

What Vern is missing in Trainz is the "working timetable" (British lingo). In Zusi this is a component which combines infrastructure and train data, very much like the prototype again. In my impression Trainz scenario building leaves the prototype path, in favour of something that may produce more play value. The question is: Play value for whom? I am aware that the Trainz approach with individual shunting or a working industrial production chain provides excellent entertainment to many users. Not very prototypical but who cares. Nevertheless, the foundation for creating a working timetable does exist in Trainz, it's only not exploited at the moment, as I see it.

Good post.

Quick Portal Manager allows a full working timetable to be implemented if required. I've used this method to recreate the holiday trains seen along the North Wales Coast on a summer Saturday in the 1970's, on gparker's route. It runs to the working timetable and uses protypically correct locos and rolling stock, with the AI performing all moves including shunting and refuelling where necessary. There's not a hope of doing this in Railworks.
 
Quick Portal Manager allows a full working timetable to be implemented if required. I've used this method to recreate the holiday trains seen along the North Wales Coast on a summer Saturday in the 1970's, on gparker's route. It runs to the working timetable and uses protypically correct locos and rolling stock, with the AI performing all moves including shunting and refuelling where necessary. There's not a hope of doing this in Railworks.

Besides if you could get it working in Railworks the Railworks people would break it totally in an "update".

Harold
 
Never tried Railworks, but if I do, and it allows for custom content, then you can best believe that i'm going to have a field day.:D
 
Never tried Railworks, but if I do, and it allows for custom content, then you can best believe that i'm going to have a field day.:D

Noone does NYCTA better than me.

I'm sorry, I'm just curious...who is "Noone"? I can't find any of his content and since he does the NYCTA better than you; I figured he would have some good stuff!:hehe:
 
Technically Trainz is more advanced. Their Achilles heel is the large amount of free content that either looks terrible or fails to work at all. People with ultra patience fix some things but almost any route that is made seems to contain assets that are of low/old quality. Same for textures. Tracks are ok for a model railroad game but a train simulator is not ok with Trainz tracks. The larger variety of commands are another issue. While touted as offering a wide range of control they are much like the Content. Old, poorly documented and can cause wasted time. The newer commands do work well but are in the minority. Trainz has a proper support function but its responsiveness is spotty. Since it does not make money it might disappear.

RW3 used to have graphics as its best selling point. That was a few years ago. Right now they are mediocre. Nice tracks though. Signals are just decorations unless great care is used in placement and understanding of them. AI is 75% done but will never progress from where it is which is a real pain. The engines look like cartoons with the author simply using the paint can tool to dump solid colors onto them. Chinese offerings are MUCH better and free. The vendor no longer is making technical changes but totally focusing on selling addons - routes and engines. There is no support unless you like to see canned messages when you report a problem.Some are thinking thay may go bankrupt while a few would like them to go away.

My vote is with Trainz right now despite its poorly documented complexities. I looked at RUN8 and it appears to be quite primitive visually. We see sparsely vegetated desert a favorite of people who do not want to spend time "planting tress and brush. If RUN8 was free I would not use it in its present/apparent state.

Open Rails may reach a tipping point with the next release. Right now it seems to parallel the old Microsoft Train Sim. If it looks better, and has proper signaling, then it will become my choice as a railroad simulator. The two mentioned commercial offerings are either well placed as a game or strongly drifting in that direction. I really do not like games but I do like simulators. So, right now my time is spent with flight simulation which scores quite well in the categories I like - it looks real, it flies real, there is real AI, weather is real and multiplayer is very advanced and real.
 
I looked at RUN8 and it appears to be quite primitive visually. We see sparsely vegetated desert a favorite of people who do not want to spend time "planting tress and brush. If RUN8 was free I would not use it in its present/apparent state.

The Run8 guys have never made excuses for their product. It is a Multi-player RAILROAD simulator. It is designed for RAILROAD simulation and not a train diorama or tree simulator.

More power too them

I run the old Hither and Yon CMTM route updated to CMTM3 for hours and never notice it is "primitive". Operators do that, it is about RAILROADING.

Harold

EDIT: OpenRails is nice but is still MSTS. Crippled by all the crap that comes with MSTS. Years away from being a viable sim.

MSTS and it's cousin Railworks both fail because they cannot be configured as a "sandbox" games. That is the major feature of Trainz, "SANDBOX".
 
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OpenRails is nice but is still MSTS. Crippled by all the crap that comes with MSTS. Years away from being a viable sim.
I don't think that's an accurate description. OpenRails is to MSTS what OpenBVE is to BVE, independent software, just using the same data files. Certainly, concept and ideas will be influenced by the predecessor, but that's about it. Even the programming languages are different. OpenRails is C#, while MSTS was C++ (OpenBVE was C#, too, but didn't make proper use of the language).

An OpenRails developer told me (a while ago), once they finished with the runtime and address editors, they would abandon quite a lot of MSTS heritage, like replacing Goode Homolosine with UTM and the like.


@boleyd:
Regarding user content, it all comes down to QA. During the first years od Trainz, Auran welcomed all kind of content, quantity over quality. I think the attitude changed with TS2009, alienating some of the former context creators in the process who didn't want to adapt. About scripting I think the Auran scripting language still is one of the best around, a clean and well structured OO language, aesthetically pleasing, with powerful libraries, and perfectly integrated into the runtime. However, even with a superior language tool at hand, you don't transform a hobby programmer into a professional developer simply be offering the perfect tool to him.
 
I don't think that's an accurate description. OpenRails is to MSTS what OpenBVE is to BVE, independent software, just using the same data files. Certainly, concept and ideas will be influenced by the predecessor, but that's about it. Even the programming languages are different. OpenRails is C#, while MSTS was C++ (OpenBVE was C#, too, but didn't make proper use of the language).

An OpenRails developer told me (a while ago), once they finished with the runtime and address editors, they would abandon quite a lot of MSTS heritage, like replacing Goode Homolosine with UTM and the like.

I like OpenRails but it is still MSTS. It is still developed with the same "ideas" as MSTS and Railworks, a linear game depending on "activities".

OpenRails runs the MSTS assets a whole lot better, but it is still MSTS. The gameplay will still be like MSTS and Railworks in singleplayer.

OpenRails also will have Multi-player in the next relaease.

Harold
 
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