Railworks or Trainz? Whats your opinion on both?? Since they have their disadvantages

I have yet to try Open Rails (waiting until it reaches a more complete state) but my view is that to move forward it needs to ditch pretty much all reliance on MSTS. It is very difficult if not downright impossible to develop a new route for MSTS these days, not least because many of the support programmes have vanished or no longer install/work on a 64 bit O/S. And the inherent risk of Open Source software, serviced by a volunteer network is pull one card out the pack or the team leader calls it a day and the whole thing folds. We have just seen that happen with OpenBVE and while I know there are attempts being made to keep it going, it does not create a viable atmosphere to bring people in and encourage development.

At least N3V (and RSC) operating on a commercial basis are able to take their respective programmes forward, even if it is not always in the expected direction or making the improvements many users want to see.
 
I'm sorry, I'm just curious...who is "Noone"? I can't find any of his content and since he does the NYCTA better than you; I figured he would have some good stuff!:hehe:

That's not a word? Shoot.:p

Still, I should look into Railworks. Saw some videos, and even without a perfect AI it looks interesting.
 
I have yet to try Open Rails (waiting until it reaches a more complete state) but my view is that to move forward it needs to ditch pretty much all reliance on MSTS.
Most of the people who extoll the virtues of OpenRails probably have never used OpenRails.

I thought it was great at first. It used neat stuff from MSTS like Activity Generator.

I generated an "activity" using Activity Generator for the ATSF Clovis route. That was the route in the Activity Generator Tutorial.

I was about five hours into the route "saving early and often". OpenRails started misbehaving and stopped working. The save file had grown to 517,000 kb. I thought it was the route.

I did an "activity generate" for a newer route; Lasalle, Rockford and Central. Same thing, no matter what activity the save file would expand exponentially. If and activity requires switching over the length of the route OpenRails will "fail".

I pointed this out to the creators and they never got back to me.

That is why all the advocates of OpenRails never have really used OpenRails. Most users are "train drivers" and not operators.

Failworks is done, go to Railworks America and read about the Dash9 fiasco. RSC "updated" the Dash9 package and killed them in the sim. RSC is blaming it on the users hardware setups and the problem isn't widespread. Way to kill the US market.

Harold

EDIT: The OpenRails save fail wasn't hardware or OS related failure. The OpenRails save problem also happens on my MSTS XP machine.
 
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Most of the people who extoll the virtues of OpenRails probably have never used OpenRails.

I thought it was great at first. It used neat stuff from MSTS like Activity Generator.

I generated an "activity" using Activity Generator for the ATSF Clovis route. That was the route in the Activity Generator Tutorial.

I was about five hours into the route "saving early and often". OpenRails started misbehaving and stopped working. The save file had grown to 517,000 kb. I thought it was the route.

I did an "activity generate" for a newer route; Lasalle, Rockford and Central. Same thing, no matter what activity the save file would expand exponentially. If and activity requires switching over the length of the route OpenRails will "fail".

I pointed this out to the creators and they never got back to me.

That is why all the advocates of OpenRails never have really used OpenRails. Most users are "train drivers" and not operators.

Failworks is done, go to Railworks America and read about the Dash9 fiasco. RSC "updated" the Dash9 package and killed them in the sim. RSC is blaming it on the users hardware setups and the problem isn't widespread. Way to kill the US market.

Harold

EDIT: The OpenRails save fail wasn't hardware or OS related failure. The OpenRails save problem also happens on my MSTS XP machine.
The next release of OpenRails will solve that problem.

Harold
 
Like most train enthusiasts, I have several rail sims, among them Railworks, a few versions of Trainz including the most recent 10 and 12 versions, and of course good old MSTS too. All of them have plus points, the obvious ones are that the longevity of MSTS means that it has stacks of content from very experienced developers such as BLW, Trainz has stacks of content too of course, since it is perhaps the most community-oriented of all the train sims. Railworks, whilst not quite so well endowed in the content department, and rather pricey on that score (notwithstanding frequent heavily discounted sale prices, which do mitigate that somewhat) does also have very shiny graphics on its side, although these can tax even the best of computers, and load times can be long, so all that graphical splendour can exact a price in terms of convenience, although to be fair, the rain effect which they slung into Railworks a while back is truly excellent.

Having said that, anyone who knows Trainz reasonably well, will also know that with the right DLC, and indeed with some of the included stuff too for that matter, the gap between it and Railworks graphically, is not so wide as many would claim. One only has to look at things from RR Mods and Jointed Rail to see that the locomotives you can get for Trainz are every bit as good, and in many cases better, than anything you can get for Railworks, except possibly that rain effect which is way better than the rain you see in Trainz. MSTS is somewhat frozen in time where graphics are concerned of course, but even that can still hold a candle to the newer sims in some of its visual aspects and this is clearly a barrier to wider acceptance of Railworks for US rail enthusiasts who, being the partisan types they often are, might not be fans of Trainz.

Where realistic operation is concerned, the difference between Railworks and Trainz is more noticeable. To be brutally honest, I think Trainz is all over Railworks like a cheap suit when it comes to the simulation of intertia, and that is a major plus point for Trainz when it comes to the realistic simulation of shunting and emulating the power and braking that is necessary on gradients. It is okay in Railworks, but only okay, whereas in Trainz it is far more convincing. That might not bother some users of course, but it is a big difference for me personally and it can lead to annoying glitches in Railworks. Roll up to a hopper too slow in Railworks and you will occasionally be rewarded with it completely failing to detect a collision of the couplers, and then you'll see your locomotive passing ghost-like through the stationary wagon, forcing you to back up and crash into it a bit more aggressively, often a few times before it registers the contact. I've never seen that happen in Trainz, not once.

As far as aspects outside of actually using Railworks and Trainz as simulations are concerned, this is another area where Trainz is often preferable. Anyone who has used the Trainz Surveyor to create their own stuff will know that it is very easy to use, intuitive to the extent of one hardly even needing to look at the manual in order to get to grips with how it works. This is in stark contrast to the content creation tools in Railworks, which although very capable, are unfortunately a confusing mess of unintelligible icons, pop out menus and frankly mystifying modes, all of which makes learning how to use the things a real chore and forces one to read the manual, which isn't tjhat great either. This alone probably accounts for the lack of widespread freebie content for Railworks which is out there (or rather not out there), since there must be many who have looked at the content creation tools for Railworks and simply given up. Yes, it really is that clumsy, in fact, if I was into conspiracy theories, I'd be inclined to suggest it was a deliberate attempt to force people into relying on payware for the thing. One thing that you have to admit though, is that anyone who has persevered with these tools enough to actually create something probably deserves every penny they get from what they charge for it.

A bigger problem with Railworks however, is the content itself; and this for a variety of reasons. Being largely developed in the UK, with some 3PD stuff made in the US too of course, Railworks is - naturally - demonstrably British in most of its content, with only a few continental European DLCs and some US stuff to add to that largely Albion-based feel. This is fine if one is primarily interested in UK railways, and being from the UK I am at least somewhat into UK railways, but if you like perhaps Indian, Chinese or Russian railways, then you are sh** out of luck where Railworks is concerned. Personally, I am more into US railroads, and that would, or at least should mean that Railworks has enough stuff to float my boat, but the problem is that much of the US content is lacking in prototypical realism and attention to detail, with inaccuracies and examples of what are quite simply lazy research creeping in. This isn't true of all US DLC for Railworks, a few add-ons you can buy for it are actually quite excellent - Ohio Steel for example, is one which represents good value for money and enjoyable content. However, that is more of an exception than a rule, and when you see how sloppy things such as the iconic Donner Pass add-on for Railworks turned out, even to the extent of having some locomotives painted in liveries which the real railroads never actually possessed, or the fact that many locomotives have poor engine sounds and the wrong horns as a result of a copy and paste mentality when it comes to development, then it becomes apparent that the focus is often on money rather than attention to detail. There is nothing wrong with a payware developer wanting to make money of course, but the focus should be on offering value for that money, and this is too often not the case, with many DLC routes for Railworks offering precious few scenarios for the price, making replay value often pitifully low when combined with the propensity for inaccuracy which is manifest.

Much of this would be at least partially forgivable if such errors were limited to non-domestic stuff, since with the scope of the continental US, one could then at least try to proffer the defence that it is a lack of geographical familiarity on the pat of the developers which is to blame, but such errors are to be found on UK DLC too, and in the UK it's kind of hard to be more than a 300 mile trip away from any locomotive you want to research. In any case, a quick trip to an Ian Allen Bookshop, of which there are many in the UK, would reveal that there are no shortage of DVDs one can watch to get such details correct if one cannot be arsed to go and check out the real thing in person. So there really is no excuse for the kind cookie-cutter sloppiness which is all too common in the DLC for Railworks.

To be fair, and from a technological standpoint, Trainz is not without its issues either. There can be little doubt that the nature of dependencies can sometimes make things a bit of a pain in the ass to get up and running, but this is rarely a show stopper, and one thing you can certainly say about Trainz in this regard, is that given the amount of freebie and payware DLC there is for it, it is surprisingly robust considering what can be thrown at it. Would that this were so with Railworks, but unfortunately, it is not, even payware content via Steam that has been available for years still exhibits glitches with no sign of fixes even being attempted. Worse, such glitches are beoming more common as updates and tweaks are added to the core program, to such an extent that even the once entirely pro Railworks America fan site now has threads with people openly criticising the developers of Railworks and announcing that they are abandoning the thing in favour of other sims. Although the often preposterously partisan nature of many train sim fans has many such dissenters unable to bring themselves to mention the rather obvious alternative that is Trainz, which is a state of affairs made more laughable given the notion that anyone who has Railworks can hardly be unaware of the availability of Trainz since it too is available via Steam and is in fact available at a discounted price at present.

Naturally on a thread of this nature, one is likely to focus on issues rather than plus points, so I will conclude in saying that there absolutely is enjoyment to be had with Railworks, and there are some trully stunning visual touches in the thing too, but for me, there is simply far more fun to be had with Trainz. It is more stable, easier to get to grips with, and isn't going to cost you an arm and leg to enjoy, and I think these are the real diffences between the two. If you like trains, then I would say that both are worth having, but spend a bit of time with both sims and I'd put money on you ending up preferring Trainz.

Al
 
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I think Trainz is all over Railworks like a cheap suit when it comes to the simulation of intertia
I'm disagree with you. Simulation of intertia in trainz is quite good, but it demands "not default" physics settings (engine assets) for traincars with lower friction settings. This is one of the examples where N3V simply spoils its own game with low-quallity content. Like default unrealistic "clack-clack-clack-clack" joint sound or giant snowflakes.
 
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The default click-clack sound can be done away with by using 3rd-party Freeware Rolling Stock from JR, USLW, and RRMods, among other places. Most of them have track sounds that are far more realistic. For that matter, go digging around and you might find where the default clickety-clack sound is, and you can change it. The snowflakes...I don't usually run winter routes, so I haven't encountered that yet.
 
and you might find where the default clickety-clack sound is, and you can change it
I know were they are for a long time. Much longer I know that is possible to disable them with "-disablerailjointsound" or "disable-extra-track-sounds 1" in some cases. But I'm sure the most part of newbies wouldn't streach for this tags and still listen to default sound. This is N3V fault...
 
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I know were they are for a long time. Much longer I know that is possible to disable them with "-disablerailjointsound" or "disable-extra-track-sounds 1" in some cases. But I'm sure the most part of newbies wouldn't streach for this tags and still listen to default sound. This is N3V fault...

You have to remember, TRam__ that Trainz is meant for two kinds of users. There are those that want to make this a very complicated simulation with tons of add-ons and lots of realistic environmental effects. Then there are those that just want a program that will give them the pleasure of running trains. For the latter, the option of changing track sounds or super realistic physics isn't necessary. For those of us that like the super realistic mode, we are the ones that will go the extra steps by editing config files and other settings.

John
 
I don't think that notion can be simply limited to just Railworks. You're always going to find people who will say running trains in a sim is boring, in any sim that does it, just as you will find people who think flight sims and farming sims etc, etc are boring, because they are if you are not into the subject material.

It's like that with everything; I don't particularly like cricket, so I'd find a test match boring, whereas people who are into it would probably give their right arm for a ticket to watch a test match. The fact that Railworks has been heavily discounted on Steam on a number of occasions, means there are almost certainly quite a few FPS and RPG Steam users who might have given it a punt when it was cheap just for the hell of it and found that it doesn't float their boat, and it is likely that if they were not into trains that much, that they will have found it boring to drive them in a sim and said so.

They'd probably say the same thing about Trainz too, or anything else that they did not fundamentally have an interest in. Ultimately, driving a GP38 across the Marias Pass in either Railworks, Trainz, or MSTS, is either going to appeal to you or it ain't; they really are not hugely different in that regard. I think Trainz does a better job in terms of being accessible, and personally I think it is a better simulation from a realism standpoint, but it is not as if Railworks is a million miles off in this respect, you're either going to find simulating driving a train interesting, or you aren't, in either sim.

Al
 
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If David Peterson hadn't developed CMTM I probably wouldn't be running Trainz. I would be running MSTS using Skyline's "Activity Generator".

Train "driving" is boring to me. I like to switch cars.

Unless you are willing to run the "canned" scenarios in Railworks there isn't much fun. Making your own "scenarios" isn't fun because you already know the plot.

Harold
 
Well, to be fair there are switching scenarios in Railworks, and many of them are against the clock, with the online score league giving one a reason to try to do well in it. Unfortunately, one or two of the what would be otherwise decent ones have bugs in them, but there are many which do not have glitches as well and they do offer a good challenge. The same would be true if one made one's own scenarios with such timing criteria, although again, this is where Trainz wins, because the editing tools in Railworks are, frankly, bloody awful.

So I still think Trainz is more fun myself, and I have both the Steam version and the standalone one too, thus have no real issue with Railworks being tied to Steam in principle, although I'm less thrilled with Steam not updating Trainz, which is why I also have the standalone version of Trainz, whereas with Railworks that is a moot point. But that aside, one should be entirely fair when making a comparison, and in being entirely bipartisan, one has to say that not everything about Railworks merits criticism, even if there is also much to criticise about it, there is still fun to be had with it, but I do maintain that their patching and support for older DLC could stand to be improved. They've let down people who've paid good money for some of their DLC, and that's not a great way to keep customers.

Al
 
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Well, to be fair there are switching scenarios in Railworks, and many of them are against the clock, with the online score league giving one a reason to try to do well in it.
But once you do the "canned" scenarios there is nothing to do. Switching against the clock is playing a "game" and not railroading. CMTM in Trainz makes a living, breathing railroad.

Harold
 
Well, any simulation where it isn't for training to do stuff in real life, is otherwise for entertainment purposes in large part, so it is by definition a game in that regard. Running against a clock hardly makes it a game; expeditious work and running to strict times has been a fundamental part of railway operations from pretty much the dawn of such things, in fact, the development of clocks themselves is fairly closely tied to the history of railways. Just do a search on Google for 'Railway Clock' if you imagine that isn't so.

Al
 
Then there are those that just want a program that will give them the pleasure of running trains. For the latter, the option of changing track sounds or super realistic physics isn't necessary.
I don't ask super realistic physics here. I'm asking realistic sound by default. Because "I drive a train that sounds like a tin" isn't plus for any player.
 
I don't ask super realistic physics here. I'm asking realistic sound by default. Because "I drive a train that sounds like a tin" isn't plus for any player.

I agree with you on this, TRam__ the sound effects are still lacking with Trainz even with the latest versions. Maybe this is something that N3V should seriously look into, after all with TS12 they've added Doppler-effects.

John
 
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