Is N3V Rational?

pware said:
And there is the problem. How do you tell the difference between the "base majority" and a minority who post loud and often? Web surveys/posts are notoriously unreliable as guides to what the majority think.

I did a survey on this point several years ago in a thread that was complaining about some aspect of Trainz (I forget which). Of the hundreds of users who "viewed" that thread there were less than 10% who posted and of those only a very few were making complaints, often the same posters making repeated posts. One could reasonably conclude that the 90% who did not respond did not have a complaint about that particular issue (or perhaps felt that their view was adequately represented by the posts already there!).

This is not to diminish the value of the opinions of those complaining - I have sometimes found myself in the position of posting about a problem with a Trainz feature only to find that I was the only poster.

Users should be encouraged to post their views and opinions but does that mean that all opinions are equal? That management should act (change direction?) on every one? What happens if you get totally contradictory opinions?

I am reminded of a quote attributed to Winston Churchill who, allegedly, stated that the "The best argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter".

More idle thoughts.
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My idle thoughts is it's not our 'job' to ensure that N3V is a viable business, that's their job.

My job is to get as good a product as I can for as little cash as I can, that's the consumer side of a business relationship.
 
The lack of new content...
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That's a vague response.

"Lack of" meaning 0? No new content?

Looking at yesterdays (9/Nov/2023) DLS uploads - 95 new assets.
1181 for the month of October.
634 new DLS uploads in October for TRS19 and later.

What is your definition of "new content"?
 
pware said:
That's a vague response.

"Lack of" meaning 0? No new content?

Looking at yesterdays (9/Nov/2023) DLS uploads - 95 new assets.
1181 for the month of October.
634 new DLS uploads in October for TRS19 and later.

What is your definition of "new content"?
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I'm sorry if you can't figure out what I'm saying. I realize you post just to argue so I'll go into a little more detail with my statement. Very little new content is being made. What is the latest build for Trainz? Check the Download Station and look for that build number and you will start to figure out what I mean. The newest bridges being made on the DLStation are 3.7 build. Buildings are 4.8 build, but mostly made by the same few people. As I said in a previous post, once Trainz builds no longer excepts the earlier build numbers, the game is over as most people will walk away from it...if they haven't done so already. New assents on the Download Station doesn't mean up to date content on the Download Station. Again it's not real hard to figure out.
 
amigacooke said:
Maybe being picky, but that content isn't provided by N3V.
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No, you are not being picky. N3V have never claimed to be a major provider of content. Yes, I am certain that someone will point out all those assets with "Auran" (a.k.a. N3V) listed as their creator - 3075 of them but most of them prior to 2020, and only 41 this year (so far).
 
BlackDiamond1964 said:
I'm sorry if you can't figure out what I'm saying. I realize you post just to argue so I'll go into a little more detail with my statement. Very little new content is being made. What is the latest build for Trainz? Check the Download Station and look for that build number and you will start to figure out what I mean. The newest bridges being made on the DLStation are 3.7 build. Buildings are 4.8 build, but mostly made by the same few people. As I said in a previous post, once Trainz builds no longer excepts the earlier build numbers, the game is over as most people will walk away from it...if they haven't done so already. New assents on the Download Station doesn't mean up to date content on the Download Station. Again it's not real hard to figure out.
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No, I do not post just to argue, there is no value in that. I post where I feel that an opinion is justified (to support it) or unjustified (in an attempt to refute it).

The latest asset build number accepted on the DLS is 5.3 for assets created by Trainz Plus (SP2 which was released a few months ago) and for TRS22 SP2. The original TRS22 asset build is 5.1.

The DLS stats are:-

Build 5.3 - 173 new assets
Builds 5.1 and 5.2 - 692 new assets

True, the majority are routes and sessions but there are other type of assets including rolling stock, buildings, meshes, etc.

There have been other threads dealing with the issue of asset creation becoming more difficult and out of the range of most older creators abilities, which it is (in my opinion as well). Opinions have varied as to the causes - consumer demands for greater realism and better graphics among them. Solutions? Sticking with past standards and hoping to attract new users is probably not one of them.
 
pware said:
No, I do not post just to argue, there is no value in that. I post where I feel that an opinion is justified (to support it) or unjustified (in an attempt to refute it).

The latest asset build number accepted on the DLS is 5.3 for assets created by Trainz Plus (SP2 which was released a few months ago) and for TRS22 SP2. The original TRS22 asset build is 5.1.

The DLS stats are:-

Build 5.3 - 173 new assets
Builds 5.1 and 5.2 - 692 new assets

True, the majority are routes and sessions but there are other type of assets including rolling stock, buildings, meshes, etc.

There have been other threads dealing with the issue of asset creation becoming more difficult and out of the range of most older creators abilities, which it is (in my opinion as well). Opinions have varied as to the causes - consumer demands for greater realism and better graphics among them. Solutions? Sticking with past standards and hoping to attract new users is probably not one of them.
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Once again you skirted over what you didn't want to hear and yes, you post to argue as you are still doing that same thing. Even commenting on my post twice. My original comment is correct no matter how you feel about it. There are far less content creators and there is far less new content being created. Why? We both know why.
 
I have been reading all the comments in this thread with interest.

I started out with version TRS2004 and have updated to all the new versions. I am a Trainz Plus subscriber running build 122411. First off from my perspective, this is the best version ever. I get countless hours of enjoyment building and running routes and sessions. Early on I decided to take the leap and use S20 exclusively. I am glad I did. I am an octogenarian, so new ways come slowly at times. There are some great writeups on how to use S20 provided by the Trainz community - thanks to those who have spent a great deal of time providing this information.

On the subject of the feedback on the forums, I find it very helpful and not at all casting negative light on N3V. It is through this feedback that the product becomes better. When I have had issues and posted them on the forum, I have in most cases gotten feedback which has helped be solve the problem. The help desk has also been very helpful and providing assistance.

As Trainz moves forward and onto the next level the increased complexity makes it more difficult to create stuff, I am sure. Hence there will probably be fewer people who will creating assets. We should be thankful for those who do. Also reading much of the feedback seems to indicate that the newest version with all its features, especially HD, pushes older computers to the limits. But Trainz development cannot be based upon the lowest common denominator, otherwise nothing new would be introduced.

I think the discussions on the forum, for the most part, are healthy and needed. Things come up that I would never have thought about and never tried without comments I have read.

There will always be bugs in software. The more people that use it the more they are flushed out. Thats why I think it is important to immerse yourself in S20 and find out the real power of this surveyor version and through feedback make it even better. It can only get better and better.
 
BlackDiamond1964 said:
When a business decides it will no longer listen to it's base majority...(the casual content creator and users), shuts them out in favor of difficult content creation and finding different ways of grabbing every nickle and dime from the user, they have completely lost focus on what the program was created for in the first place. It's really that simple. People will stick around until they no longer enjoy it. Very few are creating new content, there is a real good reasons for that... but that should be saved for another thread. Those few that are creating the new content are probably being paid to do so, or have access to the expensive creation tools needed to pump it out. Meanwhile, the majority the 3rd party creators are still building their content in the older builds. What some forget is that Trainz really didn't start out to be a business, they started out to fill a niche in model railroading for the computer. It far removed from that now.
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With users pushing them to be more realistic, content had to be more complex as there are more options. I have yet to see any one propose how to make it easier. They don’t have the ability to make a utility to make it easier. Those who do make content don’t want to document what they do, so utilities could be made. Then again they don’t support or help third party utilities.

We can grumble all day but that doesn’t help either.
 
N3V has a wealth of customer opinions here. If they take the time to sort them (without prejudice) they may see that they need to better define their products and support them in a more coherent manner. Jumping to extremes like the advanced graphics is not good for those who have a more railroad like interest. TLR was to be the offset to satisfy both camps - trains and graphics. It looks like TLR is stagnant. Reason - time and funding follow the market and graphics are the market. Add to that the inept product definition and you have confusion and frustration.

N3V is going to have to re-release the product with both graphics and TLR. That will give them the opportunity fashion a coherent product set.

But, without any updates on TLR that element seems far behind the graphics developments. They need both to re-release Trainz.

Also, they need a new name. The marketing hype can then base the new product on the " Popular, Market Proven, Trainz"
 
I suggested layers way back because placing things on platforms or near other objects can become a more than a frustrating chore to accomplish. The problem is they're still poorly implemented.

I've asked for things to be fixed in them and that has fallen on deaf ears and has gone into the ether. It's more fun making new things rather than fixing things.

* When selecting the lock or the hide/unhide option, why does that become the selected layer?
* When adding to a layer, there's no way of knowing afterwards what objects are added to that layer without selecting individual objects on the route.

Clicking on the layer should have a + to expand a tree underneath to display the added objects. The ability to select assets and drag them to another layer or select and right-click to bring up options to do so would be helpful. With this, assets can be selectively hidden, unhidden, and moved much like a CAD or graphics creation program such as Illustrator, or DrawPlus.

* There's no way of group-selecting assets and moving them all to a selected layer. (This may be true in S20, but I couldn't get it to work, so I'm assuming it's still not there.)
* We don't know what layer we've selected. This is true even with Surveyor 2.0. How about a different color, or a big colored bar on the top? The layers palette while visible works only if it is visible.
* Layer meaning/terminology needs to change. Session layer vs. Session is the biggest bugaboo we have. How many people get caught out on that one?

Fixing bugs before release. What's wrong with that?

Back in the olden days of software development things were different, at least that was what I was taught when I had to take those required programming classes.

There needs to be more than a cursory check before releasing a product. This is true for all developers but unfortunately, due to clueless CEOs and S&M driving the SDLC instead of R&D, it's all about promises and less about quality. How many times have we received a flop that has required at least 4 service packs plus hotfixes to make the product worthwhile? Hint... Looking at T: ANE. A product that was rushed to market that was plagued with CTDs, smokenados, a inoperable program, poor performance, and a hopper full of other bugs too many to mention.

Gone are the days of real beta testing. Companies today create a product, put it through a cursory crash test, give it to the public to test and send the product out. The only time a product is pulled is when there's a show stopper. A C-level VP once said that part out loud at one company I worked at. If there are no show stoppers, any bugs are thrown over to tech support, now duly offshored to a low wage country, for support. N3V does have an internal helpdesk, so I'll give them credit, but most companies won't pay diddly squat for support because that's not a money-making area. In fact, most employees are considered liabilities now according to the bean counters, so if they can dispense with those, they will too. Watch out for AI doing the development next... I digressed, sorry.

We saw this with T: ANE and it's gotten worse with every version. Public beta testing is fine for the final phases of a product but not for the beginning. Many people join a beta to have the latest version for bragging rights and only a few dedicated testers will test products. Sadly, this is true for N3V as it is for Microsoft and many others.
 
JCitron said:
-snip-
Public beta testing is fine for the final phases of a product but not for the beginning. Many people join a beta to have the latest version for bragging rights and only a few dedicated testers will test products. Sadly, this is true for N3V as it is for Microsoft and many others.
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Lets be honest. There is no "beta testing" program. What there is is a Sales Program to sell more software and it's called "beta testing."
 
pware said:
And there is the problem. How do you tell the difference between the "base majority" and a minority who post loud and often? Web surveys/posts are notoriously unreliable as guides to what the majority think.
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And there's the rub. Since only a small minority ever post, how is that an indicator of what the "majority" think and where is it written that the majority have it correct when it comes to advice on future development?

As I mentioned before, few have a stake in the game beyond the purchase price of however many versions they bought plus any extras. If I'm wrong and I really can't stand it any more I can all get off this train with only a minor sunk cost. If N3V gets it seriously wrong, the lights can go out. A big difference.

Note: even if a future Trainz goes in a totally strange direction, all previous versions I have will continue to function so while I might not follow then on a new track, what I have will still bring me fun and pleasure.
 
I think N3V are rational. They offered me a large loyalty discount so I’m now the owner of TRS22 PE. They extracted some money from me when there‘s no chance of extracting a subscription.

Whether I’m rational or not is another matter, but I now have a reason to start looking at those S20 tutorials :)
 
amigacooke said:
I think N3V are rational. They offered me a large loyalty discount so I’m now the owner of TRS22 PE. They extracted some money from me when there‘s no chance of extracting a subscription.

Whether I’m rational or not is another matter, but I now have a reason to start looking at those S20 tutorials :)
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Same here. They got that $$ out of me for PE. I'll admit, I mainly bought it for Surveyor 2.0.
 
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