Is N3V Rational?

[pware]

The game environment itself has improved by leaps and bounds over the last 15 years. But therein lies the problem as the quality of the models is lagging. There aren't enough creators who can meet the latest standards in the game and N3V's development of DLC is amateurish at best.

That is always going to be a problem when you have a niche market (train enthusiasts) that has to be coupled (pardon the pun) with advanced computer graphic skills AND a customer base that wants more realism. In the earlier days youthful enthusiasm and GMax were enough to carry us through but as we aged (became more "mature"???) and the computer world around us advanced in "leaps and bounds" our demands (for better graphics, more realism, more features, etc) outgrew our abilities, at least for most of us. What then is the solution?

Meanwhile the subscription/rental model is the ultimate passion killer that I have for this game. The UK DLC is very poor, and almost all subscription only. With very few high quality models to run in the game I have largely lost interest in the last 12 months. Which is why I will not be renewing my Gold subscription.

I mostly avoid subscription software (my AntiVirus and a very few others are exceptions) but I have been very happy with my Trainz Plus Gold subscription. I am not a big user of DLC but was (and still am) happy to support N3V. The new Plus features, despite their not-unexpected "teething" problems, have been one factor that has kept me interested. But each to their own.

My thoughts.

 

[martinvk]

As the saying goes, YMMV. Also it really depends on what you want to get out of the game, building driving, creating or some combination.

If the tracks aren't going in your direction, you're on the wrong train.

 

[pware]

As the saying goes, YMMV.

I had to look that up. That's what metrication does to you

 

[on30gn15]

Also it really depends on what you want to get out of the game, building driving, creating or some combination.

'Some combination' would cover me: especially in the building routes & modules, landscaping, and setting up towns, actions/functions.
Actually do many more hours of that than the switching and branch line driving which are also very, very, much enjoyed.

Creating ... well ... there are now a neurological autoimmune thing, an endocrine autoimmune thing, and a couple other health things going on, which get in the way of the concentration required to do computer design to create assets. Ans sometimes likewise get in the way of building and driving the plastic and metal model trains. Are also the cause of why I'll likely never install signalling on a route even with as cool as signals are, or do AI driver programming.

True, there are things I would like to be different about Trainz, but, hey, it has enough appeal that I've been using it since around 2008 or 9.

 

[on30gn15]

I had to look that up. That's what metrication does to you

Oh, easily metric-ified - YMMV = Your Metres May Vary

(for those who might not know, somewhere on Earth, I think in France, there is kept a, or at least one time was kept, and actual physical metre length rod of a special metal alloy. The standard now is the wavelength of something, I'd have to go look up what provides that wavelength)
(and yes, variation in metres has been an actual serious scientific issue which has actually kept scientists awake at night at points in history)

 

[pware]

The standard now is the wavelength of something, I'd have to go look up what provides that wavelength

OOTW (Obligatory Off Topic Warning): The metre was defined as a certain multiple of the wavelength of light emitted by an atom of Krypton-86 (not a simple thing to reproduce outside a lab). But from 1983 this was changed to a fraction (1/299792458th) of the distance traveled by light in a vacuum in one second. The only fundamental measurement standard that is still based on a physical object is mass (1kg) and work is underway to eliminate that as well.

 

[Dinorius_Redundicus]

Eliminating mass is easier said than done, especially as you get older.

 

[Paulsw2]

I didn't buy Trainz for the scenery. I bought it for the trains. Like most railway modellers I'm into, well, models. Not scenery. The prettiest game environment you can imagine is pointless if there are no trains to run in it. I don't know - maybe some of the people on this thread care more about trees and mountains than they do about trains?

Paul

 

[Paulsw2]

That is always going to be a problem when you have a niche market (train enthusiasts) that has to be coupled (pardon the pun) with advanced computer graphic skills AND a customer base that wants more realism. In the earlier days youthful enthusiasm and GMax were enough to carry us through but as we aged (became more "mature"???) and the computer world around us advanced in "leaps and bounds" our demands (for better graphics, more realism, more features, etc) outgrew our abilities, at least for most of us. What then is the solution?

I'm intrigued as to how your stream of consciousness justifies N3V issuing DLC with fundamental errors such as non-turning wheels, non-showing nameplates, incorrect liveries and niche, unwanted identities? Perhaps my demand for rotating wheels has outgrown N3V's abilities to provide such? What indeed is the solution?

Paul

 

[pware]

Neither my "stream of consciousness" nor I are attempting to justify anything, I was merely posting my observations of the modern world. My comments were about the increasing difficulties of content creators (i.e. us users) keeping up with the increasingly complex skills required to meet the standards expected by the consumers (i.e. those same users).

As to your problems, which I have no doubt are real and genuine, I should not have to remind you that N3V do not make the content, but certainly should be responsible for quality control (although on the question of incorrect liveries one would have to be an expert on the history of all railroads and/or have a large "fact checking" department to get on top of that).

 

[pware]

maybe some of the people on this thread care more about trees and mountains than they do about trains?

You could be correct. I mostly make routes and sessions. My sessions always include rolling stock.

I can tell the difference between 0-4-0 and 2-4-2 locos but as to liveries, names, etc, I would not know and, as you suspect, really do not care all that much beyond a the minimum level of required reality based, largely, on what is already available.

 

[JCitron]

I didn't buy Trainz for the scenery. I bought it for the trains. Like most railway modellers I'm into, well, models. Not scenery. The prettiest game environment you can imagine is pointless if there are no trains to run in it. I don't know - maybe some of the people on this thread care more about trees and mountains than they do about trains?

Paul

The content-creator who made the Tornado and other UK content from 3d-zug has asked for assistance with updating these assets, so hopefully this will work out for you in the future. He, as he said, didn't know of these details when he made the models because he's not native to the UK. I agree there needs to be some kind of QC in place other than a two-week test by Plus users. As a Plus user myself and not coming from the UK, I never noticed anything off about the models and to me they looked really nice. If people familiar with the locomotive had said something, there's a chance that the model would've been fixed.

But, there's always that but. It takes more than the public to QC, beta test, review software and look at models. The process has to start internally, and this again is where N3V appears to fail just like a boatload of companies since the new way of doing things is to create a product, ship it to the customers to test and fix the problems later. This method skirts the expensive testing phase and pushes the product out quicker. For many companies, as long as the product doesn't crash or have other catastrophic failures, then it's good to go. The more costly and longer method is to check internally then hand the product to the public for final testing prior to release, sadly no one does that any longer.

This has been an ongoing issue and has gotten worse. Routes that are sold with the product have errors, sessions are faulty, or there are other things that are there that should've been caught such as floating roads and other scenery items, or other issues such as bridges collapsing due to program updates. These latter things may seem minor, but it's these little details that add up and make the product bad even if the other things are right. We know that when building routes, there are details and things that get plopped down but for one reason or another end up not getting placed correctly. Sometimes, we see them with the good intensions of usually back later and fixing them but as usually is the case life gets in the way or we get sidetracked and that item or those items never get fixed. Routes that get sold with the product or are sold as DLC appear forgotten for the most part once released and these issues remain. There are some exceptions but this has been the modus operandi since T: ANE it seems and has only gotten worse.

 

[pware]

To add to what John has said above, it takes a lot of time to develop a route and associated sessions. Even longer to create a locomotive from scratch. Projects taking years are common (my current project was started in Trainz 2004) and even then they may never reach the DLS, let alone the DLC. If a locality, or a country/region with its own distinctive loco liveries, does not have many creators with the time and enthusiasm then you will end up with few, if any, authentic items and have to rely on reskins or just straight "imports".

Clearly we need to encourage more creators who have the local knowledge, in an already small niche market, to produce models. How to do this?

Well you could increase the creators payment for DLC contributions. Currently they get about 50% of the retail price from the N3V store. Believe me, that is generous - when I was writing textbooks for a major international publisher the most I ever got was 11% (and that share was reduced even further if other authors were involved). 12-18 months was my typical "write/rewrite" time for a book. While the textbook market is much bigger than the Trainz payware market will ever be, my royalties were never enough to make me consider giving up my day job.

Currently DLC routes seem to range from $US3.00 to around $US40.00 with the average (of those I surveyed) around $US15.00. DLC locos were mostly around $US10.00 but ranged from $US2.00 to around $US25.00. No content creator will ever get rich on 50% of those returns, especially considering the time and effort involved. Perhaps a significant price increase for DLC is the solution?

My (random) thoughts.

 

[Shortline2]

I once upon a time thought I was liking Trains but years ago learned; nope, I like them together with other stuff, like scenery, or like a tram/trolley, or industry or mining setting, other than that, I care not for trains.

I got Trainz as it allowed me to continue a old model railroad connection from my youth as my parents "forced" me to interconnect with a local Model Railroad club and I got used to be around railroad liking people and they rubbed a little off on me.

But, my interest has always been in the "create my own world" type of creativity, and I still think Trainz is the best for that, especially now that I am eager to try out the small grid stuff and other "make a nice world" appear.
Except, real world is so messy getting a new computer to run it all and have money for " all those wanting monthly or yearly payments" now to be able to use said computer make it "easier" to stick to my ancient computers as spending around 3x my monthly income to get a "super computer" just seems crazy.

And finding the sweet spot between cost and value is hard as I use computers, I am not really a builder of them.
Just read that one of my other main uses, map working using Global Mapper (for now at least, old version 12) I need the best "gaming" computer I can afford with as much RAM as possible on graphic card and computer.

So, I am one of those "few" that is in here for the scenery and trees, not trains. LOL

 

[DELETED-KP7sDeFaN51Yh3C]

I once upon a time thought I was liking Trains but years ago learned; nope, I like them together with other stuff, like scenery, or like a tram/trolley, or industry or mining setting, other than that, I care not for trains.

This is what I am thinking about. I would like to create a universal simulator where it would be possible to use everything – a simulator of a human, a simulator of trains and trams, a simulator of road vehicles, tracked vehicles, airplanes, helicopters, boats, ships and so on. This is partially available in the Arma III game, but unfortunately it lacks support for towing and trains, so it would be great to create a joint simulator like Arma + Trainz. This simulator could encourage people to create content for the most reallistic simulator of the human kind.

 

[pware]

I would like to create a universal simulator where it would be possible to use everything – a simulator of a human, a simulator of trains and trams, a simulator of road vehicles, tracked vehicles, airplanes, helicopters, boats, ships and so on.

Sounds like "The Matrix"

 

[ricomon35]

I didn't buy Trainz for the scenery. I bought it for the trains. Like most railway modellers I'm into, well, models. Not scenery. The prettiest game environment you can imagine is pointless if there are no trains to run in it. I don't know - maybe some of the people on this thread care more about trees and mountains than they do about trains?

Paul

I'm in agreement, partially, with @Paulsw2, and @Shortline2.

The scenery is most important for me. That's my specialty, LOL. IRL model railroading, scenery was my forte, plaster-work, rock/cliff modeling, crafting trees, bushes, grass, weeds, brush and the like, some water work as well (creeks and falls). My inspiration being grand layouts like the Gorre and Daphetid and similar. The loco and rolling stock is important of course, but always so un-obtainable !
The good stuff costs hundreds or more than a grand each, and the thought of kit-bashing, scratch modeling and greebling a loco instantly gives me a migraine, LOL. Too much fiddly work !

The lack of high quality NG locos in contemporary Trainz, for the lumber/mining layouts I prefer is a bit dis-heartening. Everything is so old and outdated now, and I'm really annoyed by the condition of the only free small ng Heisler on the DLS, which I need for my Hangman Creek Lumber Company layout. It suffers from the texture not-assigned error and both the original author ad the one Trainzer who made a re-skin are both absent form the Trainz world, so I can't get permission to fix it myself. The models themselves are pretty old, and not really up to snuff for TRS2019, but it's all we have, outside of payware choices.

Some months ago, I scratch built a complex, giant, Willamette steam donkey on log skids, using only photos of an existing detailed model and free photos of existing museum pieces, and then a donkey powered steam log hoist, also from scratch, pics as reference. The meshwork on both turned out very nice, and the textures came out pretty nice as well, which got me thinking, if I can build these complex beasts, then a steam loco would not be outside of my skill set. Both are equally complex to model. So I can at least do the mesh-work. I really have no skills (yet) in animation and have yet to get the hang of setting up models in Blender for proper .fbx export with standard or PBR materials. @Cayden has made a 5 part video tut for me on the process, but I've been too busy with other things to really sink my teeth into it yet.

Plan is to eventually build an NG loco, (Heisler, shay or similar) then find a skilled steam loco Trainzer on this forum who would like to take my textured model and rig it for animation, set-up or help set-up the engine spec and other technical stuff, and bring it into the Sim.


Rico

 

[JCitron]

I once upon a time thought I was liking Trains but years ago learned; nope, I like them together with other stuff, like scenery, or like a tram/trolley, or industry or mining setting, other than that, I care not for trains.

I got Trainz as it allowed me to continue a old model railroad connection from my youth as my parents "forced" me to interconnect with a local Model Railroad club and I got used to be around railroad liking people and they rubbed a little off on me.

But, my interest has always been in the "create my own world" type of creativity, and I still think Trainz is the best for that, especially now that I am eager to try out the small grid stuff and other "make a nice world" appear.
Except, real world is so messy getting a new computer to run it all and have money for " all those wanting monthly or yearly payments" now to be able to use said computer make it "easier" to stick to my ancient computers as spending around 3x my monthly income to get a "super computer" just seems crazy.

And finding the sweet spot between cost and value is hard as I use computers, I am not really a builder of them.
Just read that one of my other main uses, map working using Global Mapper (for now at least, old version 12) I need the best "gaming" computer I can afford with as much RAM as possible on graphic card and computer.

So, I am one of those "few" that is in here for the scenery and trees, not trains. LOL

Hi Linda! I hope all is going well for you.

The late Frank Ellison, an early model railroader and stage and movie set designer, said something like this. A model railroad is the stage and the trains are the actors. He went on to say that there are detailed parts and there are those parts in between, The detailed parts being the vignettes which deserve the most detail and those parts in between that are not as detailed. This statement can be applied to Trainz routes by replacing model railroad with a route. We have those showcase areas and then that vast open space in between that really doesn't do much. What do we do in those areas? I place housing developments, farms and small towns with little details here and there but not at the richer level found in and around those special places.

Unlike a model railroad, we have the luxury of a much larger and richer environment. This larger and richer environment, while being a lot freer than a space restricted model railroad, has its own caveats and compromises we need to make. Like you, I like the scenery that the trains run in but I also like the trains too. There's a wholeness that makes the scene. A train alone is just a train or a model on some track while the scene with the mountains, trees, rivers, and the lighting applied is what makes it all work for me. This can be said too for an urban landscape. Trains sitting in a freight yard with the big city in the background along with a busy engine terminal and switchers busying themselves throughout the yard make the scene come together. Getting a route or a model railroad to this level takes a lot of time, effort, and much more hard work than just plopping the track down and running trains on the track. It's this part that takes months or even years to bring a route up to a level.

Unlike a model railroad, the problem we face is adding these details can impact the performance if there is too much, meaning too much of a good thing. We need to constantly strike the balance between performance and extra details. Placing down the nearly infinite amounts of details can cause a nicely performing route to come to a stuttering standstill, while not placing enough details makes a scene look cold and sterile. We also face upgrades and changes that can take perfectly working assets and turn them into mush so to speak, rendering a route broken until the fixes are applied and so many other things that are too many to mention.

 

[Paulsw2]

A small example to illustrate the problem. I started work on a UK electrified route. There's a lot of scenery available, including catenary and related assets. However, having got started I realised there are no models to the latest standards available, either locomotives or coaching stock (there are a few wagons). With no trains to run on it, I abandoned the route as it would be completely pointless. That's the point about the models - we're creating a scenery environment in which to run trains, but we do need to have trains in the first place!

Paul

 

[IsambardKingdomBrunel]

Which is why i lost interest in UK themed routes, loco's and rolling stock a long time back. Any UK simming i do, i do in TSC. Where there is a shed load of good quality, loco's and rolling stock. With the correct cabs, sounds etc and good physics. Some of the UK payware DLC for Trainz is quite poor as well. One loco not even having the correct detail added to the engine room bulkhead.

Also TSC does not try to fry my CPU and GPU, like TRS22 which is poorly optimised.

I have been here since 2001 and nothing really gets any better. Where is the immersion for players like myself, that cannot or are not interested in doing route building. Proper rain effects, on windscreens and platforms with puddles, as per SimRail and TSW. Tunnels that are actually pitch black inside, just to name two things that really get up my nose.