Excessivly Bright Textures

[boleyd]

At 9pm the following picture shows a typical severly bright texture in an almost dark environment. Is this the way Trainz 2009 is supposed to look? I have never seen this in real life. There are several textures that, depending on the time-of-day, show unreasonable brightness and totally ruin a scene.

 

[jadebullet]

What i did when I found a texture like this, was, I went into CMP2 and opened the texture in explorer. I then deleted the normal map. Shinyness gone.

 

[StorkNest]

Deleting normal maps doesn't fix a thing since groundtextures for TS2009 are supposed to be able to use them, if this is a problem with all bright colored textures it should be reported so other users especially those in the Testing group can see if they have it and possibly a fix can be done.
Is that really 9PM? I see shadows that only a sun can make and the scene looks too lit for nighttime.
Only time I have seen problems with bright textures is around noon give or take a few hours each way. This is because noon is set for white sun and ambient colors, you change those and it changes the look of everything including the bright textures. What colors you choose depends on what result you like.
If there is shine/reflection in a groundtexture, either the creator did it intentionally as I did in my Ice textures or the creator did not do the normal map Alpha Channel properly. No Alpha Channel in the normal map automatically gives a shiney effect. Some groundtextures on DLS are like that, either the creator should fix them or someone could ask to fix them because it is a shame they cannot be used. I used to add the Alpha in but then decided against it in case I ever used the fixed texture then made whatever used it available since others would not have the fixed texture.

 

[boleyd]

Example

Trainz 2009
Gamma=1
Time = 7am
The texture is TS09_17
North, South, East, West examples

It took me awhile but found the base issue. It is the "orientation of the texture and the time of day. Different textures seem to be super bright at different orientations. This position is from the rotation of the small compass on the ground texture flyout.

I notmally set the little compass using the "]" key to auto-rotate the compass during placement to eliminate repeating textures. The result is super bright blotches scattered about When you hit South as shown.

 

[StorkNest]

Based on what you did, this will become a debate (not saying that's a bad thing in this case).
Normal mapping of groundtextures is new and will take people time to get used to and figure out what works and what is desirable.
The normal map is made up of various red, green and blue pixels that reflect light in different ways based on the angle you look at it and sun position. This simulates reality, pick a spot on the ground in the real world and walk around it looking at it from 4 different angle like a compass. Some of the lighting on that spot will change based on your position and the sun. Normal mapping does the same thing. You can also see this with textures set to reflection like my Ice textures, view them from the right angle and there's an intentional reflection in them (whether it is too strong or not enough is unknown, did what figured was best).
Bright textures are the hardest to do. Light colors like snow are hard to see the details unless you modify sun and ambient colors (should change from the defaults anyway, I found that PRR Brunswick Green/DGLE looks better when the lighting is changed and light textures get better detailing).
I do know there are different normal mapping methods. I use xNormal to make mine, there's 7 different kinds of normal map to choose from plus a second method, when I tried this second method someone reported something similar to what you show though it happened at 2 angles not 1. It could be the method used on the normal map, I don't know which one was used on the TS09 textures. Currently I use SO3x3 because it has detail in the normal map but doesn't make the image look weird like SO5x5 does. I tried asking for details about the different normal map types but never got a response.
The types I can make are:
4SAMPLES
3x3
5x5
PRE3x3
PRE5x5
SO3x3
SO5x5
Don't know much about them except the first three don't have much detail and make the texture look dull so even though a tutorial said to use 4SAMPLES I don't. The SO methods appear to bring out the best detail but the SO5x5 causes an odd appearance when closeup.

Summary:
It is either normal based on lighting or the normal map generation method should be changed but you should check other TS09 bright textures to see if they have the exact same problem.

 

[boleyd]

Several other 09 textures also have the problem. Right now I use noon for my constant time of day and try to avoid, or fix, bright textures due to use of auto-rotating compass. By the way hillsides yet another variable.

I am too absorbed in AI railyard shunting to get into the all other world of textures etc. I would place the resposibility to reduce the brightness for specific orientations on Auran.

Regards,

 

[StorkNest]

I cannot find a post where you list what Build you have.
My reason is, since I was checking a few other things in TS2009, I checked to see if I have the same issue about this texture.
I don't have it.
At this point I'm guessing you have an older build and the DLS textures that might have a problem (never checked so I cannot say for certain). This picture is the Builtin updated version in Build 40040. I put down 4 copies each in a different compass orientation.

 

[Pencil42]

It's a known issue with certain textures on the DLS. The normal map on these textures is angled such that it reflects light differently depending on the angle of the sun. You can delete or re-generate the normal map to fix the problem.

 

[rweber95]

I noticed that the horizontal surfaces on the Clear Lake 37-2 Shay (43955:2) turn white at certain angles. PEV's PM2IM has an Option to zero speculars. I ran the Shay's .im mesh thru PM2IM and now the loco looks much better. No shininess at any angle.

Bob

 

[jjqburch]

The alpha channel of the ground texture controls its 'shinyness'.

Jonny

 

[boleyd]

I cannot find a post where you list what Build you have.
My reason is, since I was checking a few other things in TS2009, I checked to see if I have the same issue about this texture.
I don't have it.
At this point I'm guessing you have an older build and the DLS textures that might have a problem (never checked so I cannot say for certain). This picture is the Builtin updated version in Build 40040. I put down 4 copies each in a different compass orientation.

The compass is the little one on the texture flyout menu. The build is 40040 for 2009.

If you do not see the very bright texture at certain orientations then I may have something wierd in my system! At least I could deal with that.

 

[S301]

The issue with the brightness is actually being caused by the normals map being compressed. This is caused by a line, telling Trainz/CM2 that the texture is a normals map, not being present in the .texture.txt file.

To fix the issue, simply add this line to the .texture.txt file for the normals map:

NormalMapHint=normalmap

If this issue is not seen on the textures that are built-in in SP2 (build 40040) then it's likely that the tag has been added.

Zec

 

[boleyd]

The issue with the brightness is actually being caused by the normals map being compressed. This is caused by a line, telling Trainz/CM2 that the texture is a normals map, not being present in the .texture.txt file.

To fix the issue, simply add this line to the .texture.txt file for the normals map:

NormalMapHint=normalmap

If this issue is not seen on the textures that are built-in in SP2 (build 40040) then it's likely that the tag has been added.

Zec

Tried the above but changed overall brightness. Entry was not in original texture file.


File

Primary=TEX_grass1.tga
Alpha=TEX_grass1.tga
Tile=st
NormalMapHint=normalmap

This is normal bright/non-bright areas

This is after the change

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/919/brightarea003.jpg

 

[S301]

However, it should fix the bright/dark error you are seeing. The over all brightness of the texture is the creator's choice (and may match other textures).

The issue that was being explained was an error where CM2 was not being told the the file was a normals map, and as such was compressing it. To compress the normals map is, shall we say, a bad thing. It ruins the 'bump' effect, and any lighting changes from the spacular map.

Zec

 

[StorkNest]

Tried the above but changed overall brightness. Entry was not in original texture file.


File

Primary=TEX_grass1.tga
Alpha=TEX_grass1.tga
Tile=st
NormalMapHint=normalmap

This is odd. I opened mine and don't have this. Usually normal map files have "normal", "norm" or even "n" in the filenames, this looks like the older one and the diffuse file at that due to lack of the word "normal" in the Primary and Alpha lines.

The diffuse file groundtexture.texture.txt has:

Primary=groundtexture.tga
Alpha=groundtexture.tga
Tile=st
AlphaHint=semitransparent

The normal file groundtexture_normal.texture.txt has:

Primary=groundtexture_normal.tga
Alpha=groundtexture_normal.tga
Tile=st
AlphaHint=semitransparent
NormalMapHint=normalmap

 

[boleyd]

This is odd. I opened mine and don't have this. Usually normal map files have "normal", "norm" or even "n" in the filenames, this looks like the older one and the diffuse file at that due to lack of the word "normal" in the Primary and Alpha lines.

The diffuse file groundtexture.texture.txt has:

Primary=groundtexture.tga
Alpha=groundtexture.tga
Tile=st
AlphaHint=semitransparent

The normal file groundtexture_normal.texture.txt has:

Primary=groundtexture_normal.tga
Alpha=groundtexture_normal.tga
Tile=st
AlphaHint=semitransparent
NormalMapHint=normalmap

Interesting......

Mygroundtexture.texture.txt file for texture TS09_17is:
Primary=TEX_grass1.tga
Alpha=TEX_grass1.tga
Tile=st

My groundtexture_normal.texture.txt file for texture ts09_17 is:
Primary=NRMSPEC_grass1norm.tga
Alpha=NRMSPEC_grass1norm.tga
Tile=st

Version TS2009 40040

Other ts09 textures similar. Most strange???

 

[S301]

With Trainz there is no real naming convention for the actual texture, only for the material name in Max/Blender (or in the case of ground textures, this is built-in).

For example, all of my own textures use the following convention:

diffuse will be 'main.texture.txt'/'main.tga'
normals map will be 'main_normals.texture.txt'/'main_normals.tga'

As such, you need to look at the image itself, or at the config.txt (in the case of a ground texture this makes life easy), to see which is the normals map. When you know, add the normalshint line I mentioned earlier to it. Without this line, the texture's normals map will be compressed and it will cause the normals to become corrupted.
Zec

 

[StorkNest]

Interesting......

Mygroundtexture.texture.txt file for texture TS09_17is:
Primary=TEX_grass1.tga
Alpha=TEX_grass1.tga
Tile=st

My groundtexture_normal.texture.txt file for texture ts09_17 is:
Primary=NRMSPEC_grass1norm.tga
Alpha=NRMSPEC_grass1norm.tga
Tile=st

Version TS2009 40040

Other ts09 textures similar. Most strange???

Yes but you might be able to still fix this.
Take the NormalMapHint=normalmap line out of the first, save, put it in the second, save. Note the second has "groundtexture_normal", "NRM" and "norm", that's how you know it is the one controling the normal map so that's the one that needs the line NormalMapHint=normalmap.
Even though yours look different than mine, so long as the image files are named what is listed (TEX_grass1.tga, NRMSPEC_grass1norm.tga) and it is showing up, then it is fine, you just need NormalMapHint=normalmap in the second list after the Tile line.
If it still doesn't work then a problem lies elsewhere.

 

[boleyd]

Worked

I put the normalmaphint in the normal txt file and result above. arpund the periphery is an original TS09_17 texture. A modfided version in the middle. While it still is much brighter than at most daytimes it is better.

 

[boleyd]

Added Comment

The following appears totally wrong. On the left of the bridge is texture 17. It is in the shadow of the hill and should be dark - note sun. This whole sun illumination thing is a mess in my opinion. While clever it is way overdone and in this case wrong. I would prefer just an overall brightness change for all textures based upon time of day. Treating individual textures seems to not be working. I hope it is my fault somehow so I can fix it - but....