lackoo11111
Active member
Oh , really ?
An Open Letter to N3V
- Thread starter jacksonbarno
- Start date
Oh , really ?
Well, I JUST downloaded the Original, 1.3 Build Highland Valley. Here is some TRS22-exclusive content sitting on it. I'm not sure what you're actually talking about, funnily enough.
amigacooke
Well-known member
Well, I JUST downloaded the Original, 1.3 Build Highland Valley. Here is some TRS22-exclusive content sitting on it. I'm not sure what you're actually talking about, funnily enough.
I suspect that he was talking about not being able to download old routes and be able to run them without having to update some content.
I don't remember that track in 1.3.
Why can't you? Because they don't look up to standard?
That track is an update to 1t concrete that has been in the game for a little while now.
But you can subscribe to Trainz Plus which includes the new Surveyor 2 tools and probably the new stuff the N3V have just announced but does not include any of the "free DLC" that Gold subscribers have and is consequently a lot cheaper and incudes the FCT. Again may not suit everyone but it is a cheaper option than a full blown subscription.
If N3V was a large company which it is not, it's very tiny compared to the likes of Valve and Epic with hundreds Plus coders then they could invest in the fanciful things you suggest, however they are not and Railway Simulators are a niche market, personally I think they do a pretty good job, OK it's not perfect, I have my grumbles and doesn't always satisfy the we want this and that now brigade but they don't do a bad job for a small independent company.
Heck I'm a Windows 11 Insider and even Microsoft can't get things right first time, last weeks beta update broke the Control Panel, emptying the Recycle bin doesn't work on going weirdness with File Manager since the added tabs and no audio on some PCs, I avoided that thankfully!
Subscriptions?
I subscribe, not because I want all the free stuff but to support the future continuation of Trainz as I can at present afford it. I mostly build all my own assets and routes, however the new tools will be very useful for future routes I may build. My current WIP even though I have TRS22 and TRS plus I am still building in TRS19 so those who have been waiting for it that don't have a higher version than 19 can actually use it! I do import it to 22 every so often just to check there are no issues with it in the higher version.
lackoo11111
Active member
Try to install Murchison 2 in TRS22 .
WildWillyWacko
Member
I thought they were going to send a " Hit-Man " to my house in 2037 !
Thanks for explaining this non-lifetime, lifetime FCT subscription I think I have. But, now that we know that it is just a computer glitch, will I still be able to download after 2038?
Wild Willy the Wacko
Thanks for explaining this non-lifetime, lifetime FCT subscription I think I have. But, now that we know that it is just a computer glitch, will I still be able to download after 2038?
Wild Willy the Wacko
Interesting question to which I have no confirmed answer.
It could (speculation here) depend on how N3V's FCT user database records the "lifetime" setting. If it is simply a value (e.g. the binary equivalent of -1) that indicates "no time limit" then when their file server has its OS updated to fix the year 2038 problem (if it is applicable) then that "no time limit" should continue.
My speculation.
Likely, N3V will switch to a 64-Bit system sometime between now and 2038.That way if you decide to quit Trainz one day you could pass your Trainz account down to your family and they could still download at fast speeds.
meatloaf747
Spotter...
Your right. The current DLC Murchison 2 was designed to work in TS2012, and below. So no, the current old TS2012 M2 DLC download verison won't work out of the box/download in Tane, TS2019 or TS2022.
Off memory, some cliff splines and a few other minor things needed to be repaired. I also had to purchsae the "Platinum version of Tane" (to get Tume's updated content). Once that was installed & the faulty content repaired, the old M2 works just fine in Tane & TS2019. I would assume TS2022 as well. (John may want to comment, he has it also working in Tane/TS2019). I don't know if he has tried M2 in TS2022 yet.
I can confirm that the latest beta M3 works perfectly in Tane & TS2019. I would assume it also works well in TS2022. (Sorry I don't have TS2022 to test it in).
Michael is about 90% plus finished on completely revamping and extending Murchison 2 into Murchison 3. (about 6-7 years work). The latest beta looks absolutely incredible. I'm blown away by all the detailing. At this stage, it will be avaliable for Tane, TS2019 & possibly/probably TS2022. (please note; that could possibly change).
I hope this helps.
Cheers, Mac...
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I tried M2 in TRS19 and had off-colored textures in the distance that I could resolve. I haven't tried it in TRS22 because I assumed it'll do the same. I may do that just to see if it works. It's a great route and really looked quite nice in TANE, in fact the best it ever looked because of the lighting and shadows.
In TRS22, the textures exhibit the same weird color patched they did in TRS19. Everything though looks the same.
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It is comforting to know that when the oceans finally swallow my country with forests are ablaze, my gas stations have long run dry and when N3V finally updates the audio engine in Trainz, we will still be able to download at 500kB/s from the DLS.
amigacooke
Well-known member
I would like to use this time to express my frustrations I have brought up many times of where Trainz is today and why I see no value in the latest version to even something as far back as my first use of Trainz back in 2004. More than 20 years has gone by and very little has been done to inprove engine and track sounds for Trainz. It is very difficult to make electric traction motors pitch sound in relation to the train's speed. I am trying to make an accurate engine sound for the Siemens SC-44 where a combination of diesle and electric traction motors exist. Trainz makes this impssible to excicute perfectly.
The British Rail Class 323 traction motor sounds is also impssible to create perfectly in Trainz.
Bringing up how old Trainz is now, I again would point to BVE / OpenBVE. That simulator is also around the same age yet free and open source. When it comes to engine and train effect sounds, it is far superior. You can do juction sounds perfectly, air break squeeling, create traction motors pitches flange squeeling through curves, even tell BVE what type of track your on such as tunnels or bridges. How is it that something that is free blows Trainz right out of the water when it comes to engine and effect sounds for train simulation.
With every release since 2004, I have time and time again brought this up. I tell Tony Hilliam and whoever reads these forums that is in Trainz development to stop development and play Openbve. Then continue to develop with the focus to replicate both the sound and physics engine of BVE / OpenBVE. After that you can create all the eyecandy stuff like better graphics or subscriptions no one wants. At the very least, I would find the justification to upgrade from TANE.
Here is an exact example I am talking about and that every one involved in Trainz development should watch.
The British Rail Class 323 traction motor sounds is also impssible to create perfectly in Trainz.
Bringing up how old Trainz is now, I again would point to BVE / OpenBVE. That simulator is also around the same age yet free and open source. When it comes to engine and train effect sounds, it is far superior. You can do juction sounds perfectly, air break squeeling, create traction motors pitches flange squeeling through curves, even tell BVE what type of track your on such as tunnels or bridges. How is it that something that is free blows Trainz right out of the water when it comes to engine and effect sounds for train simulation.
With every release since 2004, I have time and time again brought this up. I tell Tony Hilliam and whoever reads these forums that is in Trainz development to stop development and play Openbve. Then continue to develop with the focus to replicate both the sound and physics engine of BVE / OpenBVE. After that you can create all the eyecandy stuff like better graphics or subscriptions no one wants. At the very least, I would find the justification to upgrade from TANE.
Here is an exact example I am talking about and that every one involved in Trainz development should watch.
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Everyone has their pet "must have improvements" in Trainz and better sound has been just one of them for a long time. Better AI, more "realism" are two more examples, there are many others some of them contradictory. But I don't believe that going the Open Source path will achieve any of that.
There are many web sites that will give a detailed analysis of the "Open Source vs Commercial software" debate so I will leave it to you (and others) to look there. Open Source does have advantages but also just as many disadvantages.
I do not have BVE or OpenBVE so I cannot comment personally except to say that there have been posts in these forums over the years extolling the virtues it has over Trainz. These posts are always countered by others who point out its many shortcomings, some of which mirror the disadvantages of Open Source in general.
I will add that N3V is a business and it produces and maintains Trainz for commercial reasons, i.e. to make money. Railway simulators are a very small niche market. Open source works best commercially when aimed at the larger business market where users pay an annual licensing fee for support, maintenance, training and the like - the Open Source Office products for example (I have LibreOffice, my only Open Source product, but I pay no licence fee so I get no support).
My thoughts.
Addendum. A bit of research on the history of BVE and its open source offshoot has revealed one of the problems of freeware/open source software in niche markets. Its "stop/start" nature and long gaps (2007 to 2015 for example) between updates and what can happen when you rely on a very small number of key developers (at one stage there was only 1) and one of them leaves the project.
No thank you. N3V may not be perfect but I would prefer them to the uncertainly of open source for a very specialised niche market product.
My further thoughts.
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griffinjim
Trainz "Veteran"
having popcorn nearby when reading this thread is a must lol
I'm on a diet, so no butter with mine ... and that defeats the whole point of popcorn, so no popcorn for me
I don't think you quite understand what I said. Never have I suggested Trainz becomes open source although I am a big supporter of open source and would love to see Trainz become that. What I am however suggesting is that Trainz devs look at how it's sound and physics engine work and how much of a realistic train driving experience you can get from it and apply it in some form or another into Trainz. As I have said, this is an old game now with the focus on graphic improvements but nothing really more beyond that since the TRS2004 days. The next version should focus on physics and sound improvements and only that!
You are right. I didn't get that impression from your post. Apologies if that is the case. Perhaps it was matter of phrasing.
Lack of graphic improvements has been the common theme of most of the complaints from "the punters" over the years and it is a fact that the "eye candy" drives sales more than the "ear candy". I would suspect that the vast majority of Trainz users, myself included, cannot tell the difference between the sounds and performance levels of one type of diesel loco from another, or one steam loco from another. To take it a further step, probably many of them really do not care. To be honest, improvements to the sound system has never been on my "to do list" and I usually have the speakers turned off when "playing" so that I do not disturb anyone else so perhaps I am not qualified to comment.
As some have posted when discussing this issue, a significant part of the sound problem is the lack of recordings of actual (real) sounds. It doesn't matter how good the sound cards, software drivers, sound files and speakers are - if the sound played is "not authentic" then it will not be acceptable to those who can tell the difference. Someone has to go out with a quality recorder (would a mobile phone do?) and record each of the many, many different sounds from different locos, track types and joints, points, etc. You could argue that the responsibility for that lies with the content creators, who are not N3V.
The matter of physics is a more difficult one as it affects the "eye candy". The latest Trainz releases have tools such as collision meshes which will avoid, for example, the often complained about "feature" of smoke moving "ghost-like" through solid tunnel walls and the like. Track features such as super elevation and track condition along with loco sway and "bounce" have been introduced. But again, if content creators don't use them then what is the alternative? Should N3V impose a "one-size-fits-all" approach? Should they be made mandatory on all new assets? There is a strong argument for making LODs mandatory but they are not there yet.
Yes, a lot more could be done. If N3V had a larger team of programmers, researchers, sound recorders, graphic artists, etc then it could all be achieved overnight. That is where the "eye candy" and subscriptions come in - more sales (and subscriptions) generates more revenue which generates more development and more sales and so on. The last two newsletters have largely concentrated on the new "eye candy" features that are coming including support for DirectX12 and ray tracing, higher grid resolution, etc - what does that say? Incidentally, a sound upgrade did get a mention in moving from OpenAL to XAudio2 (and I have no idea what that means).
Pausing the "eye candy" development to improve features that many would not even notice is a significant gamble - in my opinion. But I have been wrong before (frequently as some are quick to remind me).
My thoughts
Peter
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I agree that the sound is lacking in Trainz and always has. Why did some of the early diesel locomotives sound like vacuum cleaners? That was one of my earliest observations way back in 2002-2003 before I purchased TRS2004.
The problem is sound recording technology is complex. There's a lot more to it than standing trackside with a smart phone and grabbing the sounds. Each sound has multiple components and requires a ton of post processing and clean up if necessary, or maybe enhancement to make the sound worth keeping.
But... one of the issues we face and always have, is the low bitrate of the recordings. This doesn't give much room for the sounds to sound good since the audio is chopped down pretty small to be supported in the game. This came about because of the playback technology at the time. 20 years ago, we had what, a SoundBlaster 16, meaning a 16-bit soundcard? Our DSP processing on the soundcards and even on the motherboards today is a leap ahead, but due to the nature of Trainz the old playback technology has remained. In part this also has to do with file size. Good quality sampled audio is huge. A few seconds of audio can run into the 10s of megabytes or more instead of a few megabytes for the largest sounds using newer sound recording techniques such as mathematical-modeling techniques like that developed by Modartt Modartt: Modartt company.
Utilizing the tools in the program, these instruments can be modified by adjusting the mic placement, reverb, environment, plus a whole load of other, keyboard instrument specific, parameters such as hammer placement, hardness, tuning, etc. A single engine sound can then be modified mathematically to represent the various notches the diesel is running in, or a sampled electric can have the whine enhanced, ramped up or faded easily rather than dealing with individual sound samples for each phase in the operation.
The biggest issue though is the cost. How much this will cost, especially hiring a sound engineer or consultant. They people get quite the premium for their work. Tony did mention that this is on the every-growing to-do list but whenever we see the end results is up to him.
The problem is sound recording technology is complex. There's a lot more to it than standing trackside with a smart phone and grabbing the sounds. Each sound has multiple components and requires a ton of post processing and clean up if necessary, or maybe enhancement to make the sound worth keeping.
But... one of the issues we face and always have, is the low bitrate of the recordings. This doesn't give much room for the sounds to sound good since the audio is chopped down pretty small to be supported in the game. This came about because of the playback technology at the time. 20 years ago, we had what, a SoundBlaster 16, meaning a 16-bit soundcard? Our DSP processing on the soundcards and even on the motherboards today is a leap ahead, but due to the nature of Trainz the old playback technology has remained. In part this also has to do with file size. Good quality sampled audio is huge. A few seconds of audio can run into the 10s of megabytes or more instead of a few megabytes for the largest sounds using newer sound recording techniques such as mathematical-modeling techniques like that developed by Modartt Modartt: Modartt company.
Utilizing the tools in the program, these instruments can be modified by adjusting the mic placement, reverb, environment, plus a whole load of other, keyboard instrument specific, parameters such as hammer placement, hardness, tuning, etc. A single engine sound can then be modified mathematically to represent the various notches the diesel is running in, or a sampled electric can have the whine enhanced, ramped up or faded easily rather than dealing with individual sound samples for each phase in the operation.
The biggest issue though is the cost. How much this will cost, especially hiring a sound engineer or consultant. They people get quite the premium for their work. Tony did mention that this is on the every-growing to-do list but whenever we see the end results is up to him.