Open Letter to the Trainz Community

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Fast forward many years and with the creation of the consumer-based cloud services, and we now have this with personal programs such as games, photo-editing applications and so on at a much more reasonable price than what companies were/are charged.

No, they are not more reasonable prices. With the old "buy-once" model, you bought software once, owned the copy, and could use it indefinitely. With the subscription/SaaS model, you pay far more over just a year or two than if you bought it outright. Using Microsoft Office 2016 as an example, you can buy it outright for $229, and that's if you pay the inflated prices direct from Microsoft. Or, you can subscribe for $8.25 a month for the same software through Office 365. So, in a little over two years, you'll pay more in subscription fees than if you bought outright. Compare Adobe Acrobat Pro and you'll find a similar situation.

But, at least with the subscription model, you will get continuous updates. That often break more than they fix, and that you cannot opt-out of they way you usually can with most perpetual-licensed software.
 
Which comes down to choice. Some people prefer a subscription model because it offers them advantages/features they need or want. Other prefer a buy-once model for the same reasons.

I own MS Office 2013 outright (within the terms of the license agreement). I have not updated to Office 2016 and see no advantage in buying a subscription to Office 365. I use Excel about once a day and Word once or twice a week - to me it makes no economic or practical sense to upgrade or subscribe.

TANE I run almost every day and I will update to TS19. I have downloaded very little (comparatively) from the DLC and what I have I rarely use. I already have a "lifetime" FCT. So the subscription models really offer me no advantages, I will be buying the stand-alone program. I will still get SPs and HFs when they are released. I will miss out on the "new feature" releases but in 2-3 years I will probably buy the new program again and will still be financially better off.

Other people will reach their own decisions based on their own circumstances.

From what Tony has said, the Gold subscription sales are exceeding their expectations so that is obviously a popular option despite the howls of outrage from some vocal sections of the community. I really do not see why those complainers are protesting so loudly about purchase options not previously available being offered to customers.

If they, the complainers, do not like the new options then they do not have to use them. They can use the same purchase option they have always used for all previous versions of Trainz - what is the problem?
 
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No, they are not more reasonable prices. With the old "buy-once" model, you bought software once, owned the copy, and could use it indefinitely. With the subscription/SaaS model, you pay far more over just a year or two than if you bought it outright. Using Microsoft Office 2016 as an example, you can buy it outright for $229, and that's if you pay the inflated prices direct from Microsoft. Or, you can subscribe for $8.25 a month for the same software through Office 365. So, in a little over two years, you'll pay more in subscription fees than if you bought outright. Compare Adobe Acrobat Pro and you'll find a similar situation.

But, at least with the subscription model, you will get continuous updates. That often break more than they fix, and that you cannot opt-out of they way you usually can with most perpetual-licensed software.

The subscriptions always cost more as you've pointed out over time, but that's like anything. Heck we're pretty much locked into subscribing to a cable provider to watch the basic TV news today, and that's not inexpensive either. I too still use Office 2013 which I got through the old Tech-Net subscription, and have no reason or intention of upgrading to Office 365 or Office 2016.

I'm well aware of the perpetual updates and things getting broken. Adobe has already broken things in their CS suite, which my brother found out. He canceled his subscription sometime ago due to this and other things including the cost and no longer deals with them. More recent updates have broken things further as his customers are finding out th hard way with their CS Suite. They can no longer share files with non-CS users, and other odd data corruption is occurring to the data, which never happened before.

It's as though the computer industry has gone full circle from a mainframe in a room with terminals to run the programs to a much bigger, but same model with users located around the world instead. Nothing different; just another name.
 
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The biggest problem I see with the subscription option is for people who like to spend most of their time in Surveyor
If I move my route from Tane which I have been working on over the years including previous releases back to TRS4 upgrading as I go

Then what happens to that route if I cancel my subscription and are unable to renew it
All the work I have done in TS19 will be lost and I suspect it can't be saved and put back into TANE

This is why I think I will wait and see what happens and eventually I may get the boxed version
At least i know if can no longer afford the net or nv3 folds I still have pleanty of content to keep me amused

I rarely purchase content and as far as builtin routes go their the first thing I disable/delete when I get a new game as I have no interest in them.
 
From the Xbox Game Pass FAQ:


How long do I have access to games within the Xbox Game Pass catalog?

Xbox Game Pass members enjoy unlimited access to over 100 great games within Xbox Game Pass catalog, until either the subscription is canceled/expires, or a game leaves the Game Pass catalog.



From Playstation-Plus website:


Monthly Games - Get two hand-picked PS4 games each month to download and play as long as you are a member



yes, but along with this subscription, you get discounts on items. Once your subscriptions end, you still can play with what you have purchased, just not the "free" stuff
 
At least i know if can no longer afford the net or nv3 folds I still have pleanty of content to keep me amused.

Because of the DRM, you won't be able to do that. All your content goes *poof* and does the game. Your old versions of Trainz may or may not work, depending on the version, and whether or not you got the DRM-free version, and whether you're talking about DLC versus other content. But, as written in the FAQ on TS19 and confirmed by Tony himself, TRS19 will have whole-game DRM.
 
I think the common sticking point for many is how, with the gold level subscriptions (i.e. forking out the most money), you don't retain access to the game itself if you cease your subscription.

For those who have made the comparison to similar models for programs like MS Office or Adobe, let's keep things in perspective. Those are programs that people use for business, to earn an income, or further their education. This is a game for entertainment and relaxation.

As Tony has mentioned, sales are going gangbusters with the gold membership seeming to be the preference. Great stuff and well done; can't argue with the facts. I'm wondering though, how many of those purchasers are fully aware that they would no longer have access to the basic game itself if they, for whatever reason, stop paying. I've already seen at least one comment here on the forums where someone has not fully understood this, let alone those who don't frequent these (or any) forums.

Most discussions also seem to be made under the assumption that, if people decide to stop paying their subscription, that they will have done so of free choice. What about anyone who finds themselves in unexpected financial difficulties (for whatever reason) and basically has no choice but to, at least, suspend their subscription? (again, this is only a game, not a business or life essential). Surely it's a bit unfair that not only do they have to forgo the benefits associated with that (fair enough), but to have to lose the game itself as well? And what good is being able to keep any DLC that you have bought, if you don't have anything to use it with? That's the definition of wasted money.

I would have thought that it would make good business sense as well, to a allow people to at least keep the game at whatever level it was at when their subscription lapsed as it would at least keep them engaged with the game and much more likely to renew their membership at a later date when they could. Whereas if they are forced to forgo the game as well, they may actually find that they can survive without it after all (or get back into the genre with a competitor's product), and you've lost a valued customer.

I understand the issue with the monthly subscriptions in that, you couldn't have people paying for just one month and getting the game as well. But it wouldn't be too difficult to nominate a cut-off where, after X-number of months of subscription (either concurrent or individual), that a person then gets to retain access to the game, even if they have to stop subscribing. And it should be included with the first annual subscription too. (Edit), Maybe the current prices could be for the first year, which secures full access to the game, with a reduced rate for ongoing subscription after that?

Just my thoughts.

Cheers,
Piere.
 
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yes, but along with this subscription, you get discounts on items. Once your subscriptions end, you still can play with what you have purchased, just not the "free" stuff
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As does our system... from the FAQs

Gold Class provides all the benefits of the Silver Class membership, plus a number of extras:
[/FONT]


  • A 25% Trainz Store discount on digital items

Of course there you had to buy an Xbox to use the extras, here you would either be able to use TANE for any TANE DLC purchased, or you would need to purchase TRS19 to use any TRS19 specific DLC.
 
Which comes down to choice. ... despite the howls of outrage from some vocal sections of the community. I really do not see why those complainers are protesting so loudly about purchase options not previously available being offered to customers.

If they, the complainers, do not like the new options then they do not have to use them. They can use the same purchase option they have always used for all previous versions of Trainz - what is the problem?
Seems some people just like to complain. Shows they are independent and march to the beat of their own drum.
 
It is puzzling why a new optional service has stirred up so much anger. Nothing has changed at all for people who visit store.trainzportal.com and not MyTrainz > My Memberships. That said, we are happy with whichever option people choose. It's just a shame that people aren't happy even though they have a choice.

I'm not to sure why some people are getting a little upset. Clearly you have the choice of ordering anything from N3V the old way that we have been using for the last 16 plus years, or we can opted into one of the new subscription model options. So, nothing has changed for those that don't wish to opted into the new subscription options.

I understand about the concerns of Lifetime FCT holders under a subscription option.

The new subscription options don't work for me personally, but I'm sure there is a large number of the community that it does work for and they will take up one of these new subscription options. I'm just glad that N3V have made "THE SUBSCRIPTION OPTIONS" optional.

Footnote; My only concern; Is this the start of, at some stage N3V going to a "full subscription only model?". Hopefully, they'll never go down that line, otherwise I'll have to stay with what I've already got, or take up marbles as a new hobby instead!!! :hehe: Over the years, I've dumped 3 software companies products, because they tried to force there customers into a "subscription only option". In those cases, I've found other companies software products to do nearly as good a job...

Cheers, Mac.
 
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I have been reading this thread but have one point of clarification. Tony, as I understand it, there is no point in time where going forward, a subscriber could feel they want to change their model and do some sort of buyout? Maybe pay a final $70 and keep what they have and drop out of the subscription? Forever is a very, very long time, and not everyone may want to subscribe for the rest of their natural life....
 
[...]
I understand the issue with the monthly subscriptions in that, you couldn't have people paying for just one month and getting the game as well. But it wouldn't be too difficult to nominate a cut-off where, after X-number of months of subscription (either concurrent or individual), that a person then gets to retain access to the game, even if they have to stop subscribing. And it should be included with the first annual subscription too. (Edit), Maybe the current prices could be for the first year, which secures full access to the game [...]

Bravo Piere! If they do that (pay one year gold and get the game) I will buy it. Sure they will gain many more customers than "asking 70" for the game at the end of the year (if you want to keep playing without subscription)

:D
 
The biggest problem I see with the subscription option is for people who like to spend most of their time in Surveyor
If I move my route from Tane which I have been working on over the years including previous releases back to TRS4 upgrading as I go

Then what happens to that route if I cancel my subscription and are unable to renew it
All the work I have done in TS19 will be lost and I suspect it can't be saved and put back into TANE

This is why I think I will wait and see what happens and eventually I may get the boxed version
At least i know if can no longer afford the net or nv3 folds I still have pleanty of content to keep me amused

I rarely purchase content and as far as builtin routes go their the first thing I disable/delete when I get a new game as I have no interest in them.

I'm still mulling over what to do. I think content creators are going to need to purchase both, first the program and when new features are released a subscription. The program ensures they have continued access to the content they have developed. The subscription, once new features are released, ensures they have access to the new features to developed their content to take advantage of them. Once a new version is released they can purchase the new version and drop the subscription, at least until a new feature is released that they want to take advantage of.

It's a shame that after subscribing for a period of time, say a year, that one can't drop the subscription and retain the program and thus continued access to any content they have created for it. If they don't want to continue to keep pace with the program's development at least they can retain access to what they have already developed without have to replace the subscription with purchase of the program.

Cayden
 
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Footnote; My only concern; is this the start of, at some stage N3V going to a "full subscription only model?". Hopefully, they'll never go down that line, otherwise I'll have to take up marbles as a new hobby instead!!! :hehe: Over the years, I've dumped 3 software companies products, because they tried to force there customers into a "subscription only option". In those cases, I've found other companies software products to do nearly as good a job...

I do share the same concern. I have heard reports that Microsoft might be doing the same thing with Office but, like you, I will find alternatives if/when that happens. I now have LibreOffice running on my new laptop as it was not worth me forking out for another copy of Office.

With Trainz however it is not that simple. The alternatives that are always mentioned when someone here threatens to "jump ship" (but they never do) are not anywhere as appealing to me as the Trainz products. I will probably be forced to stay with whatever non-subscription version I have installed at that sad but purely hypothetical time.
 
US dollar is in mind here. I love how you really overstretched the price of a trainset. Over $1000? REALLY!? Yeah right, you can get a full starter DC trainset for $70 or $80. DCC ones are around $300 from Bachmann which is super overpriced, but not even close to $1000. I don't know where you pulled that price from, Lionel maybe? "Upper spectrum" on the price, in fact, I think it exceeds 99% of all default/vanilla games prices. Games with similar graphics are are $40-$50 and have many discounts throughout a year. Go look some up! Any that are $60-$70 have DLCs involved.

C'mon, to get a train set that is ANYWHERE near what Trainz offers ( hundreds of locos, r stock, building etc, you name it) you would spend thousands. Just a kit for the Uintah 2-6-6-2 is $159 and you have to make it and paint it. ive been there , it cost me about $500 20 years ago to buy the bare minimum of stuff to run a 10 ft by 4ft model railroad. I do not think you are being fair in this instance.
 
Perhaps N3V could confirm that they will never go to a subscription only model?

The only people who are likely to ever say "never" are politicians who can then be relied upon to never keep that promise. I don't think that any commercial company could ever honestly say they will "never do this/that", and would you believe them if they did?
 
It certainly isn't in our current plans and clearly the attitude of many of our customers would need to change or it wouldn't make any sense at all.

Even if a million users were willing to pay $1 a month then I still think we'd offer the store option for those that are opposed to subs :)
 
The only people who are likely to ever say "never" are politicians who can then be relied upon to never keep that promise. I don't think that any commercial company could ever honestly say they will "never do this/that", and would you believe them if they did?

N3V can either make the statement or not. If they will not, then the possibility of a subscription only future service looms.

Nina'jd by Tony.

Nicely handled. Never say never, eh? ;)

As a matter of interest, have you considered a Trainz plus subscription that includes just TRS19 (no routes or DLC) and the ongoing upgrades?
 
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