A New Dimension in Model Railroads
- Thread starter Tony_Hilliam
- Start date
Service packs and hot fixes should be free. This is the way virtually all major software houses (Microsoft, Adobe, Oracle, etc) have always operated. Should Samsung charge users for fixing their defective phones or washing machines? What about car manufacturers?
The only software developer to go against this trend was Apple (what a surprise) with their OS9 updates. Every time they brought out a major patch to fix bugs and security holes, something that everyone else called a service pack, they called it an "upgrade" and charged everyone to get it.
Expansion packs are a different matter. The new Trainz Model Railroad 2017 will be available as a stand-alone product or as an "add on" to T:ANE SP2 after it has been released. Expansion packs do not fix manufacturing faults or security flaws and are not necessary for the safe continuing operation of a software product. Sure, some SPs do introduce new features (such as Windows 10 SP1's builtin Linux sub-system) but these are usually provided because the developer wants these features to become "main stream", not optional. The Interlocking Towers that came out in T:ANE Hot Fix 1 (or was it 2) is another example.
The only software developer to go against this trend was Apple (what a surprise) with their OS9 updates. Every time they brought out a major patch to fix bugs and security holes, something that everyone else called a service pack, they called it an "upgrade" and charged everyone to get it.
Expansion packs are a different matter. The new Trainz Model Railroad 2017 will be available as a stand-alone product or as an "add on" to T:ANE SP2 after it has been released. Expansion packs do not fix manufacturing faults or security flaws and are not necessary for the safe continuing operation of a software product. Sure, some SPs do introduce new features (such as Windows 10 SP1's builtin Linux sub-system) but these are usually provided because the developer wants these features to become "main stream", not optional. The Interlocking Towers that came out in T:ANE Hot Fix 1 (or was it 2) is another example.
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That's a one-step way to discourage updating. People pay for DLC and expansion packs, sure, but paying for updates will quickly kill a game. Physical copies of updates being paid is fine, of course, but digital is no-way. Notice how large games do not force you to pay for updates, but for DLC or special features (for instance, 'tickets' for special events in multiplayer games, or acquiring new items), instead updates are free. If people had to pay for updates for games on Steam, Origin, or other gaming platforms, you would find a very decreased playerbase on all versions including and past paid updates.
As another has mentioned, previous updates have been free in the past, barring any physical copies, and there is no need to remove that trend now.
I don't even play TANE and don't want to but the idea of paid updates is sure to drive me even further away, regardless of price. There is a reason you pay to own the game and pay for DLC, and in Trainz' case, FCTs.
The only reason to offer a paid digital update is if the game has changed to drastically that it shares minor similarities with the previous version... but that's just called making a new game, or a sequel, isn't it?
Cheers,
SM
My reason for supporting TMR (albeit I may wait for the Steam version) is because it is a complete product with all the content for that style of route conveniently in one place.
The definition of a fix or product enhancement is always going to be subjective, but the list of "fixes" in the last hotfix most definitely fall within what shouldn't be broken (or was broken by previous patches) than a product enhancement.
In any event no sane company is going down that road, N3V already have a revenue stream with residual sales of TANE, FCT's and the range of DLC - which I might add I just purchased the Russian route from the shop. Once sufficient programme enhancements or improvements have accumulated, then doubtless these will be rolled into the next full version of Trainz and the cycle starts again.
Anyway this is all veering a bit off the topic of the thread which is looking forward to TMR and what we can do with it.
amigacooke
Well-known member
That is a surprise to me, as the last three at least new versions of OS X/macOS have been free downloads to existing users, let alone the patches.
He's talking about "classic" MacOS 9, not MacOS X 10.9.
Of course, what he doesn't mention is that if he's calling them "service packs" because they only bumped the minor version number (9.x), then every MacOS X release ever has only been a service pack, since they're all "10.x".
And Windows NT 4 through Windows XP were all the same major OS version (5.x). And Vista through Windows 10 are all the same major OS version (6.x).
In short, version numbers don't mean much.
vern said:
This, pretty much. We do include new features into the hotfixes, but that's not the main focus, which is to fix issues which have come to light since the product was developed. Adding to that, the difference between a "bugfix" and a "feature" is often a matter of perspective. It's quite possible for something to be working perfectly, but not what the user expected.
chris
At the end of the day you guys are squirming over $2.00 to $5.00 once every 3,6,9 months to advance your gaming experience,
Yet your internet goes up and down plays up all the time at a 1 month payment intervals and you still pay a lot more for that every month
N3V give you hours of entertainment for no fee after the purchase of the game and you squirm over a very very small fee.
TANE has worked very well for a long time I myself have not had a problem with it and i really find it hard to say it is broken in anyway.
very poor to see you people squirm over a rather small amount of money
The only thing i am P OFF about is SLI/Crossfire not being added at this point, and i think TANE should be the main program with expansion Pack nothing more
Just my view
steve123
Yet your internet goes up and down plays up all the time at a 1 month payment intervals and you still pay a lot more for that every month
N3V give you hours of entertainment for no fee after the purchase of the game and you squirm over a very very small fee.
TANE has worked very well for a long time I myself have not had a problem with it and i really find it hard to say it is broken in anyway.
very poor to see you people squirm over a rather small amount of money
The only thing i am P OFF about is SLI/Crossfire not being added at this point, and i think TANE should be the main program with expansion Pack nothing more
Just my view
steve123
With software in general heading towards a monthly or annual subscription system (e.g. Office 365) this may end up being the case with T:ANE or more likely N:EXT, which is already proposing a subscription system for its new multi-user feature. A great deal of hot air has already been generated in these forums over that proposal.
I have no problems with the DLC (I have purchased content from there) or with paying for future possible T:ANE/N:EXT optional expansion packs. However, even with current subscription services such as Office 365, the service packs, hot fixes, security updates and software patches are still free. If you had to pay for them, even if only $2 or $5 every few months, there would be those who would not pay - for a variety of reasons. While you may argue that it is their choice, it does mean that unpatched, possibly faulty versions of the software are in use and that is always a bad image for any software developer. Making the patches free encourages more users to keep their software up to date.
Many of us have already paid for FCT access and that should, at the very least, cover all "free" patches, hot fixes and SPs.
I have no problems with the DLC (I have purchased content from there) or with paying for future possible T:ANE/N:EXT optional expansion packs. However, even with current subscription services such as Office 365, the service packs, hot fixes, security updates and software patches are still free. If you had to pay for them, even if only $2 or $5 every few months, there would be those who would not pay - for a variety of reasons. While you may argue that it is their choice, it does mean that unpatched, possibly faulty versions of the software are in use and that is always a bad image for any software developer. Making the patches free encourages more users to keep their software up to date.
Many of us have already paid for FCT access and that should, at the very least, cover all "free" patches, hot fixes and SPs.
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How much is office 365 worth to buy? i'll bet its a dam sight more than TANE is, there you go a 3 month installment is $39.60 or 1 year $158.40 here in Australia and that for the basic,
Way more than TANE and all its update S Patches put together at $30.00 RIGHT NOW.
Please you guy would not shout if a shark bit you.
I don't see on the FCT sale page where it said { and all update and patches free}, i must have missed that! when i purchased my FCT
Guessing N3V's companies Profit and loss is as good as a lie if you are only guessing.
Once more just my view
and also most of you who use office for work would be claiming the cost of it on your annual Tax not to mention your OS Systems
steve
Way more than TANE and all its update S Patches put together at $30.00 RIGHT NOW.
Please you guy would not shout if a shark bit you.
I don't see on the FCT sale page where it said { and all update and patches free}, i must have missed that! when i purchased my FCT
Guessing N3V's companies Profit and loss is as good as a lie if you are only guessing.
Once more just my view
and also most of you who use office for work would be claiming the cost of it on your annual Tax not to mention your OS Systems
steve
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Steve, I do respect your point of view but I think that charging users to download and install software patches, hot fixes and even service packs is just not on!
Its not a matter of relative costs.
Claiming that it is just a few $$s for a monthly (or whatever) update against the many $$$$s more purchase price is not a reasonable argument. Those monthly costs will accumulate over time. At Simulator Central, T:ANE currently costs $40 AUS - with an update subscription rate set at $5 per quarter (your suggestion) after 2 years you have paid enough for another copy of T:ANE. After that you are in deficit.
Consumer laws do play a part here - a product that is sold defective must be made "good" by the supplier/manufacturer at no cost to the consumer.
My reference to the FCT covering these downloads was not factual but a reference to the fact that many of us have paid and continue to pay for service from N3V and we should not be paying more for software patches.
Expansion Packs, DLC, add-ons like TMR, are an entirely different matter and they should be sold at a price that the market can bear.
Alas, since I am now retired my days of claiming software on my tax returns are over. I have Office 2013 and since my retirement I find that I do use use Office enough to justify going to the subscription based Office 365.
Its not a matter of relative costs.
Claiming that it is just a few $$s for a monthly (or whatever) update against the many $$$$s more purchase price is not a reasonable argument. Those monthly costs will accumulate over time. At Simulator Central, T:ANE currently costs $40 AUS - with an update subscription rate set at $5 per quarter (your suggestion) after 2 years you have paid enough for another copy of T:ANE. After that you are in deficit.
Consumer laws do play a part here - a product that is sold defective must be made "good" by the supplier/manufacturer at no cost to the consumer.
My reference to the FCT covering these downloads was not factual but a reference to the fact that many of us have paid and continue to pay for service from N3V and we should not be paying more for software patches.
Expansion Packs, DLC, add-ons like TMR, are an entirely different matter and they should be sold at a price that the market can bear.
Alas, since I am now retired my days of claiming software on my tax returns are over. I have Office 2013 and since my retirement I find that I do use use Office enough to justify going to the subscription based Office 365.
Approach_Medium
Trainz Addict
I'm on the "I don't get it" car of this train. I can build a layout of any scale in T:ANE, so what's the point in TMR? The way I see it, you guys at N3V are spending too much time trying to come up with something new that will keep the company alive, rather than spend the dollars and time on improving what you've already got: T:ANE!
You (at N3V) remind me of children who get a great new toy, with which they can create all sorts of new things to play with, but instead lose interest and spend their time with yet another bran-new toy, only to repeat the whole process in an endless "do" loop.
I'm not happy enough with T:ANE to be the least bit interested in another product.
CP
You (at N3V) remind me of children who get a great new toy, with which they can create all sorts of new things to play with, but instead lose interest and spend their time with yet another bran-new toy, only to repeat the whole process in an endless "do" loop.
I'm not happy enough with T:ANE to be the least bit interested in another product.
CP
CP, welcome to the highly competitive world of software (and in particular, gaming) development. Those who stand still to "spend the dollars and time on improving what you've already got" will be lost.
This issue pops up every time a new version of Trainz (or any software package for that matter) is released. TRS2004 still wasn't perfect when TRS2006 was released, and so on. That is how it is in the computer software business.
I'm sorry that you are not happy enough with T:ANE as it currently is - but T:ANE is still being developed and SP2 is about to go into beta testing. As for not buyng another product, well no-one is forcing you to do so. TMR will not be for everyone.
This issue pops up every time a new version of Trainz (or any software package for that matter) is released. TRS2004 still wasn't perfect when TRS2006 was released, and so on. That is how it is in the computer software business.
I'm sorry that you are not happy enough with T:ANE as it currently is - but T:ANE is still being developed and SP2 is about to go into beta testing. As for not buyng another product, well no-one is forcing you to do so. TMR will not be for everyone.
Tony_Hilliam
Trainz Plus - enjoy Trainz from just 20 cents a da
Car manufacturers don't build one model. "Different folks different strokes".
TMR is primarily a content pack. Those who enjoy a more fast passed operational environment and those who like to drool over incredible layouts they can only dream of creating for real will love TMR.
I must confess beta testing TMR has been the most fun I've had with Trainz in many years. Feedback has been fantastic. Lots of people will love it and others will not.
You didn't mention your issues with Tane but it would be good to post those in the Tane forum
TMR is primarily a content pack. Those who enjoy a more fast passed operational environment and those who like to drool over incredible layouts they can only dream of creating for real will love TMR.
I must confess beta testing TMR has been the most fun I've had with Trainz in many years. Feedback has been fantastic. Lots of people will love it and others will not.
You didn't mention your issues with Tane but it would be good to post those in the Tane forum
Well I for one am looking forward to TMR. Have decided to purchase it as a separate program so that I will have all my Modelz railway layouts in one programme and routes, whether prototypical or freelance, in TANE. I have been like many with Trainz since the very first release and I think this is a great development. I am hoping that procedural track will be included and that I will have full access to all TANE rolling stock on the DS! I am presuming this will be the case.
Yorkshire
Yorkshire
Well said Paul. It's odd that the same old people are appearing on the forums pontificating about something they have not seen and know nothing about
. Still, I suppose they know best :hehe:Don't be surprised if there is a layout based in (er...) Yorkshire 'Yorkshire'
.As for the details, who am I to say what will and won't be included ? Best to ask the 'usual suspects' as they know everything !
Yours,
(Merely a humble content creator).
Chris M
.Don't be surprised if there is a layout based in (er...) Yorkshire 'Yorkshire'
As for the details, who am I to say what will and won't be included ? Best to ask the 'usual suspects' as they know everything !
Now you have wetted my appetite and interest!!
Yorkshire
"Look at the new trailer."
Well, it's sorta gone live so I may as well provide links to the videos I uploaded to youtube ages ago when the whole project began. I'm sure the videos may influence the purchasing decision of some people but I'm not sure which way.
Watch full screen and at 1080p.
The "Port Zyd & Fulazturn":
The "Shortz & Kerliez" (though N3V in their wisdom has given the layout a slightly different name):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=072b_2p7nsc
and in a slightly earlier version focusing on reflections:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XyRjNDJw28
Phil
Well, it's sorta gone live so I may as well provide links to the videos I uploaded to youtube ages ago when the whole project began. I'm sure the videos may influence the purchasing decision of some people but I'm not sure which way.
Watch full screen and at 1080p.
The "Port Zyd & Fulazturn":
The "Shortz & Kerliez" (though N3V in their wisdom has given the layout a slightly different name):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=072b_2p7nsc
and in a slightly earlier version focusing on reflections:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XyRjNDJw28
Phil
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