Trainz "Next" is announced...

Last week we asked whether anyone could guess the next direction for the expansion of the Trainz franchise. Today we have announced just what that direction will be... we hope you will be as excited as we are about these plans. Please read this news update for the full details.

Thanks to everyone for your spirited responses and we would like to reiterate once again that our new project does not mean that we are abandoning our current customers. Far from it, we see that this new project will enable us to continue updating, improving and adding to Trainz A New Era for a long time to come.

So, just how close did anyone come to guessing the direction correctly?

We had these responses that were closest:

How about a version of Trainz Surveyor on Steroids …
PC_Ace

I can only conclude that "NEXT" might be some acronym for the "Key Feature". However, I've no idea what it might be. "Networked", "eXtreme", ???
pcas1986

(Ok, we didn't spend a lot of time on the acronym and we did say it was only a small clue - but we'll be looking forward to Community Feedback on what the real name should be).

Special Mention for guesses must also go to Will0065 for this gem!

A version that helps me loose weight would be good...

Not accurate or on topic, but a great idea nonetheless! Thanks Will

So with the "cat out of the bag" let us know what you think (and please remember as TANE owners you are not being left out or left behind with the next update due out for beta testing very soon).

For all our forum followers, you guys are the core of our Trainz Community so I would like to take a little time to explain our decision on this new direction and why we are announcing it now.



With any new announcement, we are also introducing "change". Everyone deals with change differently, and we saw last week that many people decided that if we were talking about something "new" that we would be abandoning our existing platform. Rather than stopping TANE development, instead we are working on two main projects, with time shared between the two. The diagram above shows why we think both customers and the company will benefit from this new project.

As a commercial entity our priority is to ensure the company is in a position to deliver sustainable revenues. By creating a new development platform for Trainz content, we will greatly expand the capabilities to generate higher quality content more quickly. This becomes a win-win with customers getting the benefit of the new content and the company reaping the rewards of increased sales. This in turn drives investment into improving the core Trainz product and so everyone wins.

Ah! Trainz NEXT 3D World Builder concept.... interesting and we get to choose who we allow access to a build.
The imagination of a whole city route or intercity linked routes may come true. Or even the whole tran-siberian or the Orient express route
May have to buy a bigger monitor now and look into faster internet access.

It will come down to cost, speed and reliability of internet access - could there be a download/upload to work on the route(s) section, without being connected at all times?

I'll wait until the idea is fleshed out a little but I will say that multiplayer is not my thing. Neither is building routes. I don't have a problem with subscriptions but would rather pay on an annual basis than monthly. I'm sure you will accommodate that.

I have a feeling that content creators will get the short straw again.

I will be waiting to see specifics of the subscription model before making a decision on this, but I have to say that generally they do not favour those of us who can't use Trainz for 20 hours a week or more. As I say, I will wait and see. If I'm going to have to pay for an entire month just to fire up Trainz for a couple of hours on a Sunday evening it will almost certainly not be a viable proposition. Likewise, I tend to use Trainz more in the winter months (when I spend more time indoors). If I have to pay for the whole year I will be penalised as a casual user. I suppose the fairest system would be to prepay for a certain number of hours of game time to be used as and when the user wishes.

As for the only other mentioned "feature", it is of absolutely no interest to me personally and I certainly wouldn't consider it a "key" feature. I hope there will be something else for those of us who fire up Trainz for a bit of quiet personal relaxation.

Stuart

I can see the virtues of collaborative route building though. Steamboateng and I have been working on a large route project with the bulk now being passed into his lap after I had my brief go at it. With the collaborative access available, we could both be working on the route project at the same time, while not worrying about dependencies, file transfers, duplicates, opening up old versions, and all the other things that go along using the current methods.

That said I'm not so sure about the subscription type model. I don't like the cloud model for many reasons and I see this as a turn-off. Perhaps this route-building collaborative access could be a one-off option for those of us that like to work offline 99.999% of the time, but get asked to work periodically on a collaborative project. In other words if we own TANE2 or TANE-Next, or whatever it's going to be called, we'll have that multi-access capability if we want to use it and this can be turned on and off if needed. These issues I understand still have to be worked out in the flesh as this is still a pie in the sky over view.

John

Reckon this is a sensational concept - collaborative, real-time route development - something I'd love to get involved with and help develop.
I've been a huge fan of distributed computing for more than a decade now and see a lot of merit in turning one aspect of the Trainz franchise in that direction.
Imagine, for example, what this will mean for the ECML team - or one that I would love to project manage - the entire North Island Main Trunk here in New Zealand, worked by enthusiasts from the perspective of their local district (and branch lines, present and historic) too.
It won't be everyone's cup of tea - some prefer to simply drive trains or to create sessions and scenarios. But what a wonderful way to rapidly build superb new routes and stimulate the craft of new assets specifically for that purpose. The drivers will be beneficiaries too!

pcas1986 said:

I'll wait until the idea is fleshed out a little but I will say that multiplayer is not my thing. Neither is building routes. I don't have a problem with subscriptions but would rather pay on an annual basis than monthly. I'm sure you will accommodate that.

Click to expand...

Just for you

We expect there will be a selection of subscription features and options

I have a feeling that content creators will get the short straw again.

Click to expand...

I don't follow?

"With a monthly subscription, users gain access to a new product at a fraction of the price of buying the “full version”. If you aren’t happy with the product, you can quit your subscription at any time."

Isn't this whole problem with the subscription model: "If the company aren't happy with the product, they can suddenly shut down access forever?" The other problem, of course, is that if N3V go out of business, we could also lose everything. What if the new business model is a complete commercial flop, rightly or wrongly? The other side of the coin would be if N3V did extremely well...selling another product, leading to chronic neglect and eventual discontinuance of Trainz. Look at what happened to the Mac after the development of the iPad, for example.

I have a copy of TANE, but I haven't tried it yet. I've been following the comments on these forums, and as it is I feel I'm spending far too much time making my own patches, rather than building content. With all the errors in Trainz 2009, I'm trying to fix for my own use, I'm surprised that after all this time (15 years, plus a few years of development before that), the basic bugs haven't been fixed by N3V, nevermind the alleged problems in TANE. Does the F40PH still have an F7 physics model, for example? It was introduced at least as far back as 2004, and as of 2009 had not been fixed yet. Also as of 2009, another locomotive (I think the P3 4-8-4) had the Big Boy physics model, which is even crazier. Are the air brakes on passenger trains still down at 70 psi, even for the newest classes (to be fair, this problem doesn't apply to all trains, just far too many)? There are other train simulators that I've tried that had none of these problems, even in their first releases.

Textures are another irritation, in that every time I unpack a plug to debug it (using the standard Content Manager), I have to redo all the textures to make them Targa files (with associated text files to tell Trainz what they are), whether there was originally anything wrong with them or not. I know that if I deactivated PEVSoft's texture converters this would theoretically solve the problem, but like every other developer I need them.

I've already mentioned the wheelslip problems with steam locomotives elsewhere on these forums, although in honesty I don't know if these cases are due to a problem with Trainz, or inadequate instructions to developers such as me. I have noticed that many steam locomotives that are already released (mostly on the DLS) are practically undrivable because of this problem, so I can't be the only one who has noticed this.

Finally, the developer community have a problem as well: missing dependencies, lots of them. This wouldn't be so much of a problem if the Content Manager's download feature worked properly, but my own stopped working a year or two ago without explanation, so I've had to resort to manual downloads. Several reinstallations and changes to the firewall, including a complete shutdown of malware protection on my computer, have been unsuccessful in getting it working again. In addition, most of the larger routes have multiple dependencies, sometimes over 100, which aren't available on the DLS, meaning that I've had to spend over three weeks trying to find dependencies for the Prague-Brno route, and have still been unsuccessful. Cross dependencies, or dependencies of dependencies, have vastly inflated how many are needed beyond the KUID list on the trainz.cz website (another notable detail of the situation is that the dependencies are not only unavailable on the DLS, but also unavailable on trainz.cz).

It isn't that I hate Trainz, otherwise I wouldn't use it so much, but like so many other simulators it relies on the support of the company (in spite of the original business model being that user-generated content would dominate). I've been surprised that bug fixing hasn't been more of a priority.

Thanks for all the years of service Auran/N3V has given me. But I do not now nor will I ever support subscription based gaming.
Not everybody can support it. I for one cannnot afford a game subscription. There will be lots of people that cannot do it.
The current rate for TANE std digital download is aus 55.00. Divide by 12 months works out to around 4.58 dollars. I doubt a monthly subscription can be had for such a low price.
No offence it is a bad idea.

Kinda reminds me of Auran's Fury. We know how that turned out.
Kenny

This is just my personal feelings but I feel you all are just pi**ing in our own Wheaties.
Edit there are more reason I feel this is not a good Idea but others will say the same things.

Pay as you go - NO - its a failing concept even in MMO with many of the big names now having it only as an option.
As for the multiplayer surveyor - only those interested in building routes like the ECML will benefit from it. The majority of those who currently don't, will likely as not still not participate. There is no mention of improvements to the surveyor tools - in fact its clearly stated that the tools will operate pretty much as they currently do. If you are going all out to improve surveyor - and its long overdue - then improve things like how the terrain is painted - ability to build near vertical cliffs - smoothing tools that allow us to create rounded hills easier rather than the jagged peaks that are the norm in many cases.

First and Foremost, a Multiplayer Surveyor platform can already achieved by collaborating with others thru a group atmosphere so this is not an advancement.....
Currently a group including myself is doing just this WITHOUT THE NEED TO PURCHASE ANOTHER VERSION.........

Second, we were explicitly told that there would be no further versions created and all advancements would be applied to T:ANE? I see this is a false advertisement......
Third, A Multiplayer Surveyor Platform really sounds close to that of World Builder that was never released and was suppose to be offered prior to T:ANE? Interesting isn't it?

How can anyone really do all the complex route building that we have to do today to appease the rivet counters when it takes well beyond two years to do so and a new version appears....
To be honest the routes worth running are never completed or provided to the community other than crappy built-in routes that overstress a common computer or you do not have the "Premier" Release thus complicating this further.....
Again, I lead back to the fact that the community is not tapped into properly and thus we have bad results and perhaps you need to branch out beyond those of yesterday......

I will in no way shape or form support a subscription based platform given the tremendous cost already within the current environment of Trainz.......
It's bad enough that we have a subscription based DLS at a hefty cost exceeding the software (FCT).........

I will not LEASE A SOFTWARE that overtime costs me more than the initial upfront costs because just like leasing a car it costs you more in the long run than just buying it at a higher upfront payment......
I DO EXPECT FOR THOSE WHO FALL FOR THIS LEASE PROGRAM TO HAVE THEIR CREDIT SCORE INCREASE because they made their on-time payment......
For those less fortunate and can't not afford this monthly payment, can we ask Obama for a handout to assist with our now monthly subscription like that of Obamacare whereas we received subsidies because we are already in poverty status.....

You are shooting yourself in the foot and you're going to bleed........

Tony_Hilliam said:

...
I don't follow?

Click to expand...

I cannot see how a content creator, of non route or session assets, can work in this collaboration space. Most CCs that I know, work at their own pace and following their own goals. An on-line collaboration of route builders is likely to want new buildings, industries and other facilities and this isn't likely to happen overnight. I'm not saying it couldn't happen but is unlikely to occur given my experience. If some say they are already doing it then I will interested in their reaction. The ECML and PLL routes were collaborative I believe.

I did work, for a few months, on a collaborative project where the owner did ask for specialised buildings, houses and all sorts of things. The whole thing was part of a special group set up to manage a number of projects. It failed, mostly because of conflicting commitments and unrealistic expectations.

Some assets, such as houses and simple buildings, are (relatively) easy to create. Interactive industries, anything with a script, and traincars are not.

I look forward to the new version and will probably subscribe, once I understand how it will work, but on-line collaboration of this nature isn't my cup of tea.

No, just no. Not even railworks does this sort of stuff. As a quote from Final Fantasy Legend III: "Your Mad."

How can anyone really do all the complex route building that we have to do today to appease the rivet counters when it takes well beyond two years to do so and a new version appears....

Click to expand...

To be honest the routes worth running are never completed or provided to the community other than crappy built-in routes that overstress a common computer or you do not have the "Premier" Release thus complicating this further.....

Click to expand...

Surely the answer to this is multiplayer route construction so that more people can share the load, add the necessary details and complete those routes that never get finished because the person creating it has invested 5 years of their spare time and release that it is another 10 years before their dream will be completed?

As we said in the announcement, while TANE Next is not going to be for everyone (and same can be said for the subscription model) we do see that everyone will get the benefit of the new content created.

Jonsearles62 - why don't you try TANE. CM downloads work really well. You can also swap out any engine spec for any other engine spec in TANE. And you can create your own adjustments in Test Track to make new versions that behave just like you want them to.

pcas1986 - content creators making models and scripted items would operate as now, uploading creations to the DLS. The collaboration benefit is that new people placing items onto a route may know of better items than the existing one being used, so the overall quality improves.

I didn't see this coming. But the framework for this is already inside T:ANE ( I suspect) in the purchase options and in the multiplayer options. And I also suspect that we have all been given fair warning about assets non-compliant, as the road map is well known.

While I am a content creator - after my own fashion - I am not sure that I - or many others - have the capacity to collaborate with content creators with community endorsed skill and excellence. And there are many here who have endorsed forum members and their skills.

I sense that the subscription model is to pay for the servers. They cost money. Monthly.

Consider the following:



Meanwhile, I will have to consider and have a long think about this "TANE Next".

We are in the process of updating the DLS servers - with the increased usage this year we're hitting the server limits more often (even though increased usage would come as a shock to those who think our userbase is shrinking). It should be sorted out next week.

This seems to be a very niche product in a very niche market. Can't imagine why the majority of Trainz users would have an interest in this. Mind you, no mention of platforms, so the choice may not be mine to make anyway.

Multi player doesn't interest me in any shape or form.


Dave

I'm guessing (as usual), but it seems to me that TNext will mean:

no more DRM free version (for everybody, not just OSX)
no more waiting to buy the latest version at a discounted rate
no more occasional users (who could justify a subscription for the occasional dabble?)

I feel (rightly or wrongly) a bit duped that I dropped a wad of cash on N3V to help develop a new engine which is almost immediately being hidden behind a subscription wall. I suggest real choice in payment method with a one off payment for those who don't want a subscription model.

Will the FCT System still be there or will the subscription service replace it? If it's the latter, I've got an image in my head of Trainz becoming an MMOSG... A Massively Multiplayer Online Simulator Game.