What's Happening to the Content Creators?

[n8phu]

A few thoughts here, I sure I will ramble and be adding to the list as I go...

** Warning ..... The following is from a grumpy former USN sailor who is trying to restrain his writing..... Keeping Petty Officer 1st class in check isn't easy.

I feel that a lot of creators get hounded right out of the community. Yep, I said it.

There is always one self professed expert who wants to DEMAND that you FIX a piece of FREEWARE that you slaved over for a year because your content doesn't look like his youtube video.

Don't get me started on the "Are you ever going to create anything for Railworks?" Idiots.... I swear the next person that does that I will make cry and hide to the point Google can't find him and Waldo wonders where he went to. Personally I would rather delete my hard drive and go back to an abacus before I work with or create for Railworks. Been there, done that, it sucks, lets move on.....

I also can see the point that a lot of people get frustrated because of the changing standards. Higher standards does mean better graphics and game play, but it does have unintended side effects......an asset that worked in 2004 but now doesn't work in 2010, then some one complains incessantly that the asset sucks because it can't be used in a higher version.

You release a new asset, and immediately someone is in the release thread wondering "When are you going to do this?" or "I'm waiting on you to do xxx". There is an old saying folks, "Wish in one hand...."

Combine just those 4 examples, and it is enough to make people give up and quit.

 

[H222]

It's all our fault? actually, I agree. Many times have creators been angry, and angry at certain people on the forums who don't listen, don't respect and don't have patience

Jamie

 

[ATSF854]

It's all our fault? actually, I agree. Many times have creators been angry, and angry at certain people on the forums who don't listen, don't respect and don't have patience

Jamie

Indeed, I do get angry at people who just aren't patient for some of my upcoming stuff, I just don't tell them I am angry and start some annoying argument (or something like that) I like to contain my anger, it makes me seem like a nicer person, sorta.

(and to some people, you know who you are) I am NOT making content for railworks. (and that's the end of that)

 

[PWeiser]

My Reasons/Excuses

Well, here are my excuses:

1.) Medical problem, on drugs for a month - kind that make the mind a bit too fuzzy to do serious programming.

2.) Trying - finally - to at least build pieces of my dream layout.

3.) Updating all my locomotives with the stuff I've learned to do (or invented) since I posted the first one to DLS.

The only sense of urgency is,

- The "sweet spot" for compatibility seems to be TS2009, about release 2 (before layers, which apparently don't work too well). When TC3 is excluded from DLS uploads, I expect (pace fanboyZ) that many creators are going to give up; when that happens to TS2009, content creation will be essentially over for any who haven't gone at least semi-pro. I'm looking forward to running Trainz on a machine which crushes TS2009 the way my present one does UTC (smooth graphics, etc.). Only words for N3V (or whoever owns the game after the next bankruptcy): it may be a business to you, but it's a hobby to your customers. Think about it.

 

[wilh]

Now, I have been around long enough, to see some great content creators depart. I also have been around to see some great ones such as Paul (PWeiser), Mike (Leeferr), and Chris (n8phu) and I have been able to work with them as well. I think the reason that so many have left is the fact that, the bar for content quality has been set so high, that any new people or even old ones for that matter aren't able to meet peoples demands for quality and that has cause them to simply leave because people don't seem happy with their content. Another thing I think is that there are too many "Gimmie Pigs" and "Can you make this" or "I want that, who will make it" people and I think that this has just frustrated so many content creators that they just got too fed up with it and left. (I have actually had to deal with this, if you can believe that). Then to add onto what Chris said, there are those who then ask if they are going to do something for another Sim and well, most likely not because it took them long enough just to do the item for one Sim, so I think that they don't really want to have to spend that time to redo the whole thing. The dropping of support for 2004/2006 probably didn't help either. I think another thing that really is a problem is also the fact that reskinning is the easiest thing to do for this game and yet, when someone who begs for an item to be done (that can be a reskin), and they are told to go and try to do it themselves, they give the ol' "I don't know how to" or the "It's too hard" crap and that is so irritating, because it isn't hard. I started out with reskinning and I taught myself and along the way I picked up bits of info from other content creators (by the way, Chris, thanks for the F-unit striping tips). In the beginning my stuff wasn't the best, but over time it has gotten better. I think that is part of the problem is that we have a bunch of people who just don't want to try. So, for those of you who are still chugging away at making content, I thank you and for those of you who are willing to try something new, I thank you as well. I also would like to thank those content creators who are kind enough to comment on my work and say that they like it and that it looks good (In particular, Ed, Chris, Paul, Slabay). As for me, you can expect some new F-Units coming soon.

 

[Euphod]

I think wilh's post points out an important fact that seems to be over looked. I've noted a new crop of up and coming creators that don't get enough credit for what they do. Reskinners galore, and modelers as well, too many to list here. The game evolves, the community evolves, and although we have lost many great creators, others are stepping up to fill the gap. As for myself, I just keep turning out the same slop I always have, and probably will, at least for a few more months.

 

[norfolksouthern37]

You release a new asset, and immediately someone is in the release thread wondering "When are you going to do this?" or "I'm waiting on you to do xxx".

my life, thought usually happens when i just show a screenshot.

 

[Isegrinns]

Hmm, well....

I wouldnt say I am a content creator, but from the route-builders point of view, I have to say that I made some different experiences.

Yes, I do ask content creators from time to time if they would help me out with some assetts.
Does that make me a gimmie-pig?
Ask Bendorsey, Simulatortrain, r_bar164, Timothetoolman, wgkandsk, matruck and others.
I dont think I am.
Asking people for help aint bad, bad is if you dont respect a "no", "no time/interest/other reason".
The tone makes the music! Show respect and gratitude.
I offered my works to give a kind of payback.
Also I do beta tests for several other route builders, to kinda make an impact and help to keep this game awesome.
So far, I can very well said that I got a unit-train-load of help and assets from content creators, and I am VERY thankful for that.

While I have been on the building-board for the Laurel Line, previous version, I may say that your wishes for content are very specific.
I can understand that you need that, say, court house right next to the line, ´cause its vital to recognize that particular scene.
BUT I also understand that the interest of making said house as an asset for TRS might be... well, limited.
Dont get me wrong on that, I am not trying to bash your wonderful work or something.

In general, while being in contact with several content creators, the reasons for leaving TRS were manifold.
Some told me that they dont like the way new TRS versions handle their old content. (Telegraph splines, example!)
Some told me that they rather spend their time with their model railroad.
Some others left because of grudges between them and other members of this "society".
Some others left because their interests in general have changes. (Like: GIRLS! Yes, I work with a lot of young people and cant support the statement that they dont respect anythig at all.)

There are probably some more good reasons to leave.
Those are just the ones from my first-hand emailing experiences.


What I dont like is when I post some screenshots of a scene I worked on some days (yes, route-builders might do that) and no-one comments on it.
Not even a "dont like, cause...." response...
I tend to spend more time on route-building when I get feedback.
But thats me, ideas, critic and comments keep me going.
So while at it, thanks to all who did leave something!

 

[LWVRR]

While I have been on the building-board for the Laurel Line, previous version, I may say that your wishes for content are very specific.
I can understand that you need that, say, court house right next to the line, ´cause its vital to recognize that particular scene.
BUT I also understand that the interest of making said house as an asset for TRS might be... well, limited.
Dont get me wrong on that, I am not trying to bash your wonderful work or something.

I can understand this, after all, I wouldn't want to build that courthouse either but it needs to be done. So what are my options? I could try to build it myself which I have very little time for what I doinig now. I could ask people for help and be ignored, or I can keep posting pictures and info about the project and hope that somebody (other content creators) will find it interesting and what to help out...I thought I would have a staff of people by now with this last option but it's not to be. The last option is to just give up on the project and close the door on Trainz. I'm willing to hear any other options.

 

[slabay]

There is always one self professed expert who wants to DEMAND that you FIX a piece of FREEWARE that you slaved over for a year because your content doesn't look like his youtube video.

I about fell out of my chair when I read that post!!! I referred him to this thread, but I'm sure he'll never read it.

Yes, I do ask content creators from time to time if they would help me out with some assetts.
Does that make me a gimmie-pig?

I'll be the first to admit that I've asked before, too. Ben has made a couple of bridges for me, Dave made a caboose at my behest, and I'm sure I've asked for some rail cars before I learned to make my own. There is nothing wrong with asking for stuff...... We are all a community. I've enjoyed doing the reskins that I've done. Being a relatively new reskinner, I've seen pictures in other threads and said "Hey! That's one of my cabooses!" It is a great feeling to see that someone has taken something I've made and is using it!

I make what I want to make for myself. If somebody sees something that I've done and wants their own version, great! I'm glad you've enjoyed what I've done enough to ask for your own version of it. When somebody asks for something, they may have an idea that I never even considered, so it gives me something to do that I would have never thought of. It actually inspires me.

On the other hand, I have seen someone on another creator's thread ask in a single post for thirty-seven different versions of an item.There is definitely a line between asking for something and gimme-pigging. I think if you ask someone to make something, ask for something else, and ask for something else before the person has had a chance to finish the first thing, the line has been crossed. It is a pretty vague line, though.

I can understand that you need that, say, court house right next to the line, ´cause its vital to recognize that particular scene.

I can understand this, after all, I wouldn't want to build that courthouse either but it needs to be done. So what are my options? I could try to build it myself which I have very little time for what I doinig now. I could ask people for help and be ignored, or I can keep posting pictures and info about the project and hope that somebody (other content creators) will find it interesting and what to help out...I thought I would have a staff of people by now with this last option but it's not to be. The last option is to just give up on the project and close the door on Trainz.

Something frustrating about building a prototypical line. Sure, any gas station will do for another. If the BP station has 4 pumps instead of 6, it doesn't really matter, even if you have to put a Shell station in instead. And of course, for the Laurel Line for example, to ask for an Esso or Gulf station instead of an Exxon or BP is completely understandable. It is also vague enough that someone else can use the Esso station as well. Something like the courthouse, on the other hand: My bridges I asked for from Ben were just that- a "hero" asset that defines the scene. I'm not crazy about the stuff that Sketchup makes- a lot of it is ridiculously high-poly, and I would never consider a route built with Skecthup, but for that one or two oddball items that you really need, it is good to have available, and there is a lot of stuff available there now.

Finally, and don't feel like I'm picking on you- I'm certainly not- you just made so many good comments that I felt the need to chime in on:

What I dont like is when I post some screenshots of a scene I worked on some days (yes, route-builders might do that) and no-one comments on it.
Not even a "dont like, cause...." response...

I certainly didn't want to comment on the one thread I found, since it was like a four year old thread, but I saw some sort of route that you were working on that had a lot of blank "grid" texture baseboards that you were building a really big steel mill on. Great work! I looked around at some of the shots you had posted of that (I think some of them were off-site too) and really liked what you had going on. I'm not sure what happened to that route, if it ever got released or whatever), but I got a lot of ideas from that old thread. I agree. It is very frustrating to hear the deafening sound of silence after you've posted something that you've worked hard on. I certainly don't expect 100 comments on each post to pat me on the back or anything, but sometimes a little feedback would be nice. A little compliment or even constructive criticism is all the fuel that is needed to keep a creator, especially a freeware creator, running!

Wow. I had no idea that would go that long!!! I respectfully turn the podium over to the next speaker. Thank you for your time. :wave:

 

[slabay]

"Posting quick reply"

LMAO, there was nothing quick about that reply!

 

[wholbr]

Hi Everybody.
This thread has brought forward many possible reasons why Route builders and other content creators seem to be in short supply. Gimme pigs, version updates, unfair criticism and creation fatigue seem to be the “best guess “ of many posters on the thread. However, could it be there is a far more simple explanation in the fact that people have far less spare time than they had only a few years ago.

The vast majority of people throughout the world (especially in what I would call the old Western world) work for small companies. With a worldwide recession going on since 2008 many small businesses have struggled to maintain profitability and thereby maintain the employment levels within those businesses.

The offshoot of the foregoing is that the vast majority of workers now work far longer hours for their employers in an effort to maintain their companies and thereby their jobs. One report in a British national newspaper advised that the average British employee now works 10 hours per week unpaid overtime giving them an minimum working week of 48 to 50 hours. Older workers who very often still have high mortgages to maintain now often work beyond the age of 65 unable to retire due to poor pensions and high outgoings.

Good content creation takes up many hours of anyone's time. I believe that is time that in these difficult days people simply do not have. Perhaps people find it easier to buy the content they require and then just create their own settings (scenarios in railworks) which is far less consuming of what little spare time they have.

Just a thought
Bill

 

[itareus]

...Gotta remember when trainsims first came out, DOS had only been dead about 5 years...

Sorry for the off topic but I could not resist this one - there were SIMS for the very early PCs written in DOS, I remember playing them back in the early 80's ! Amazingly one of those early companies is still going http://www.siam.co.uk/ and you can still get DOS simulations from them although you might have problems running them on modern PCs. They were not sims like Trainz, more Signal Box Panel / Control simulations, great fun though !

 

[itareus]

...This thread has brought forward many possible reasons why Route builders and other content creators seem to be in short supply. Gimme pigs, version updates, unfair criticism and creation fatigue seem to be the “best guess “ of many posters on the thread...

These certainly seem to be the core reasons that many creators of UK content have given up recently, especially the "more challenging" (management speak) content creation methods which are still not properly documented by Auran/N3V. Posts on on these forums unfairly criticising uploaded content, usually from people who have not created anything or made a positive contribution to the community in any way themselves, have also alienated a few creators. On a positive note, I have seen people returning to creating after a break from Trainz, which might of course have been from any number of reasons unrelated to Trains.

I would agree with Bill about the spare time issue, even before the latest financial debacle. When I was working there was no way that I could have spent time on any hobby (except my narrowboat most weekends ). I think it's true to say that many of the creators of UK content are retired, althought we do have many, very good, younger content creators who are interested, unsurprisingly, in the more "modern image" scene.

orum unfairly criticising uploaded content, usually from people who have not created anything or made a positive contribution to the community in any way. On a positive note, I have seen people returning to creating after a break from Trainz, which might of course have been from any number of reasons unrelated to Trains.

I would agree with Bill about the spare time issue, even before the latest financial debacle. When I was working there was no way that I could have spent time on any hobby (except my narrowboat most weekends ). I think it's true to say that many of the creators of UK content are retired (althought we do have many, very good, younger content creators who are interested, unsurprisingly, in the more "modern image" scene).

 

[johnwhelan]

Hi Everybody.
This thread has brought forward many possible reasons why Route builders and other content creators seem to be in short supply. Gimme pigs, version updates, unfair criticism and creation fatigue seem to be the “best guess “ of many posters on the thread. However, could it be there is a far more simple explanation in the fact that people have far less spare time than they had only a few years ago.

The vast majority of people throughout the world (especially in what I would call the old Western world) work for small companies. With a worldwide recession going on since 2008 many small businesses have struggled to maintain profitability and thereby maintain the employment levels within those businesses.

The offshoot of the foregoing is that the vast majority of workers now work far longer hours for their employers in an effort to maintain their companies and thereby their jobs. One report in a British national newspaper advised that the average British employee now works 10 hours per week unpaid overtime giving them an minimum working week of 48 to 50 hours. Older workers who very often still have high mortgages to maintain now often work beyond the age of 65 unable to retire due to poor pensions and high outgoings.

Good content creation takes up many hours of anyone's time. I believe that is time that in these difficult days people simply do not have. Perhaps people find it easier to buy the content they require and then just create their own settings (scenarios in railworks) which is far less consuming of what little spare time they have.

Just a thought
Bill

Quite a few content creators are retired so I don't think I totally agree with your statement. With the amount of free content available on the DLS and at other locations is it necessary to purchase content to build layouts? There are one or two exceptions such as the occasional speedtree asset but I think there is enough basic items available today. Jayholland has been looking for a loco to build and since he doesn't wish to duplicate others work he mentioned he has had to discard a couple of ones he had picked out.

I think my latest project which is taking more time than it ought to because of life intruding is practically a remake of something that is available already. Needless to say I personally prefer my version but the other existing model is quite respectable.

We have seen some creators become less active, some have died or grown a little older. I used to create because the assets I required weren't available but these days there is enough for me to create quite a respectable layout. The barrier to entry on content creation is higher these days. The expectations of the users are higher. Skipper1945's newer and reworked locos are very nice but they do require a level of expertise that newcomers find difficult to match.

GMAX is dated, 3DS is expensive, Blender has version issues at the moment, the interface changed after 2.49b so the existing relevant Trainz tutorials don't match the latest versions. There is also the issue of Blender models being available on the web that aren't designed to run in a real time rendering environment. 3D Canvas seems to have disappeared. Sketchup is fine for creating 250,000 poly rolling stock items but unfortunately Trainz takes a major performance hit on that number of polys.

You also have to keep using the content creation tools or you forget how to do things so it takes longer next time.

Cheerio John

 

[backyard]

gmax is alive and well, thank you. Many assets are currently being made in gmax...normal mapping is also possible, but not in gmax, using graphics studios. The Trainz Asset Creation Gamepack is still available therefore.

We dedicated content creators are still active, better content is created regularly and some, like Dave Snow and Euphod are creating new content most every day.

The original thrill of making never before assets for use in Trainz is a bygone era, however new stuff comes out all the time, same as in model railroading!

 

[n8phu]

gmax is alive and well, thank you. Many assets are currently being made in gmax...normal mapping is also possible, but not in gmax, using graphics studios. The Trainz Asset Creation Gamepack is still available therefore.

We dedicated content creators are still active, better content is created regularly and some, like Dave Snow and Euphod are creating new content most every day.

The original thrill of making never before assets for use in Trainz is a bygone era, however new stuff comes out all the time, same as in model railroading!

Backyard,

Check out PEV's page for Listener for GMAX, you can now make normal mapped assets...

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~villaump/pevsoft.htm

So yes, Trainz Assets Creation Studio is still relevant...

I have both it and 3ds max..... Sometimes GMAX (TCAS) is a little faster to do things with... I just wished it was easier to transfer stuff between them.

EDIT: Going from GMAX to 3ds max... I know if you save something as a 3ds file in 3DS max that GMAX can import it without a problem.

 

[n8phu]

I do have to agree with the point that Documentation for content creating is WOEFULLY inadequate as of late...

I have looked for a document that details ALL of the commands, Structure, and use for scripting, and have come up short...

I am lucky enough to have the TRS 2004 / 2006 / TC content creator guides on my hard drive... and printed out. With out them I would be hopelessly lost.

Looking at the Wiki for info is a crap shoot at best.....

 

[rjhowie]

Well I am plodding on slowly with the build of one complete railway company here in Great Britain and especially as that part of the country is almost absent here in representation (interesting, eh?!). It will be a time before I finish but I come from a long history of family sloggers!

 

[itareus]

...new stuff comes out all the time, same as in model railroading!...

Trainz content costs a lots more money than model railroad stuff though ! :wave:.