Hello
I'm finished the first session. What to do, wait or make upload?
Now i start with second one
regards
celje
Last edited:
TS2010 Session making competition - feedback
- Thread starter JamesMoody
- Start date
Hello
I'm finished the first session. What to do, wait or make upload?
Now i start with second one
regards
celje
Unfortunately the entries were disqualified by the rules of the competition, so they are not entitled to any prizes. If we felt that there were acceptable entries, we wouldn't need to be discussing extending the competition.
kind regards,
chris
JamesMoody
Trainz Team
Further to Windwalkr's post, neither of the submitted sessions met this key expectation:
This was considered to be a major problem in both cases, rather than a minor issue that would warrant a correction request.
johnwhelan
Well-known member
Further to Windwalkr's post, neither of the submitted sessions met this key expectation:
Quote:
Originally Posted by James_Moody
* The session should either provide clear-cut “win” and “loss” conditions, or some meaningful form of scoring in order that the player can gauge their own progress and success
This was considered to be a major problem in both cases, rather than a minor issue that would warrant a correction request.
I think that might be the problem, N3V was probably looking for a simple black and white type game promotion aimed at the 2010 Xmas market whilst many of the forum are more modelers rather than gamers and need to have the N3V objectives spelled out more clearly.
Have fun.
Cheerio John
We're not at all worried about the Christmas market. The concern is that we're seeing a lot of 'filler content' being created, and not enough 'gameplay content'. We believe that the community is completely capable of creating gameplay content, perhaps more so because it does not require artistic talent - so we want to give a push in that direction by providing incentives.
Hopefully the competition rules, in conjunction with this forum thread, are making our objectives clear.
chris
But it does require creative talent. If content creation required artistic talent, you would have a lot less of it. There is a large market for the modeler which N3V and previously Auran seems to ignore. As a modeler, I want to model prototype operations, not score keeping toy train stuff. What tools do we have with which to keep score? Not being a gamer, I have no knowledge of any score keeping assets.
I am creating several switching sessions but have no idea of how to keep score. Is there some way to determine if a car has been spotted at the proper track-mark? Or am I expected to write such an application?
Or, should one use time to keep score?
Should the score keeping be ongoing throughout the session, ie: x cars placed, y correctly, or can the score be calculated and displayed at the end of the session, ie:33 cars placed correctly, 12 picked up correctly; or - time 3 hours 13 minutes, time to beat 2hrs 3 minutes ?
David
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Absolutely, but creative talent is (in my opinion) a fairly common human trait, whereas artistic talent is less developed in most individuals.
You can write your own, or you can use the existing rules which are provided for this purpose. You can certainly configure the existing rules react to the presence of a particular train at a particular location on the route. For a more exacting session, you can also ensure that the train is ordered as per your instructions.
This is totally up to you. We're not setting specific requirements on what the gameplay entails. You could create a completely prototypical scenario with a scorecard, or you could make a "toy session" where the player competes with an AI to transport the most resources around a small route.
We want the gameplay to have some real purpose, rather than simply dumping the player into an uncontrolled session with little guidance and no meaningful restrictions.
It's certainly not prototypical for a driver to be given unrestricted free will. Correlating "scoring" with "un-prototypical" would be a big mistake.
kind regards,
chris
JamesMoody
Trainz Team
I've updated the competition announcement thread with some new dates and a slight relaxation of the rules.
The changes are:
If you want to know how to do something, a good tip is to look for a session that already does it, open it up in surveyor, and have a look at the session rules.
The changes are:
- Specific types of Download Station assets may be used as dependencies - HTML assets, achievement assets, driver orders, session rules and script libraries.
- Initial submission date has been extended to 25th of February 2011.
- Final submission date has been extended to 25th of March 2011.
- Downtown Traction is an eligible map for which sessions can be created.
- There must be instructions visible inside the session that can be called up by the player during gameplay.
- The session must detect a successful completion of the task set. This is not in any way optional. A session that does not attempt to do this at initial submission date will be considered 'not substantially complete' and disqualified.
- A form of scoring beyond simple success/failure is highly desirable to allow the player to rate their performance against previous attempts or against other players.
If you want to know how to do something, a good tip is to look for a session that already does it, open it up in surveyor, and have a look at the session rules.
My 2 cents worth,
the trouble is us people that have been using trainz for years cannot upload content cause we have stuff from more than just the DLS. I would have to make a session or a layout specifically to upload. Because I just make something that works well and looks good. Then I go to upload it and cannot cause I've added something that is not on the DLS..... Having said that I like everyone gets annoyed when I download something then it dose not work, or is missing detail cause items needed are not on the DLS.
So I agree with what Auran have done.
I would use content that is only on the DLS but there is no way of knowing until I make the route / session. Save it to a CDP. Put in on another PC with a base install of 2010 then say download whats missing. Then go back to the original route and edit out the none DLS stuff. I know in 2010 that I see not 2010 compatible content marked as red. That is good.
Would it be possible to mark none DLS stuff as another colour (grey). That would be helpful.
Onto the good news. I'm making my own little thing that willl as always be a little different. and a bit of fun
It can be read about here
http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=64625
On the "much ado about BR" I could put in scoring, (like if that is what I need for 100 no worries), auran waid they would contact creators about any changes they wanted. I was going to add scoring even organised to take a Friday off to Finnish that but I did not get the friday off.
Conversation you can imagine.... Hay boss I wanna take Friday off to play trainz
BUT I think with the layout I built it on. No disrespect to the author. But many PC's would have trouble running it. Further by the limits Auran put on the creators was bount to be a drive a to b sort of thing. I really fell that is not where Aurns strengths lie.
the trouble is us people that have been using trainz for years cannot upload content cause we have stuff from more than just the DLS. I would have to make a session or a layout specifically to upload. Because I just make something that works well and looks good. Then I go to upload it and cannot cause I've added something that is not on the DLS..... Having said that I like everyone gets annoyed when I download something then it dose not work, or is missing detail cause items needed are not on the DLS.
So I agree with what Auran have done.
I would use content that is only on the DLS but there is no way of knowing until I make the route / session. Save it to a CDP. Put in on another PC with a base install of 2010 then say download whats missing. Then go back to the original route and edit out the none DLS stuff. I know in 2010 that I see not 2010 compatible content marked as red. That is good.
Would it be possible to mark none DLS stuff as another colour (grey). That would be helpful.
Onto the good news. I'm making my own little thing that willl as always be a little different. and a bit of fun
It can be read about here
http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=64625
On the "much ado about BR" I could put in scoring, (like if that is what I need for 100 no worries), auran waid they would contact creators about any changes they wanted. I was going to add scoring even organised to take a Friday off to Finnish that but I did not get the friday off.
Conversation you can imagine.... Hay boss I wanna take Friday off to play trainz
BUT I think with the layout I built it on. No disrespect to the author. But many PC's would have trouble running it. Further by the limits Auran put on the creators was bount to be a drive a to b sort of thing. I really fell that is not where Aurns strengths lie.
No wonder! It is a SIMULATOR, not a game! I am sure all those content creators love it you calling their work "filler content"... THANK YOU COMMUNITY!
misterchugg
Active member
hi
my thoughts on scoring
i bought this game originally because it was a simulator
if i wanted to be scored i would buy a kiddies game
i do not believe that this will help with the adults.
the scoring is for children
why would i need to l know my score?
either i finish the scenario or i keep playing the session
i do not want to have to start from new all the time.
i want to start where i finished at the last save mark
cheers
ron
my thoughts on scoring
i bought this game originally because it was a simulator
if i wanted to be scored i would buy a kiddies game
i do not believe that this will help with the adults.
the scoring is for children
why would i need to l know my score?
either i finish the scenario or i keep playing the session
i do not want to have to start from new all the time.
i want to start where i finished at the last save mark
cheers
ron
Hi Ron,
I think you're misunderstanding my point here. I'm saying that we want the session to track how well the player is doing. This doesn't make it a "game" (as opposed to a "simulation") - most real-life activities are scored in some manner as well. Whether that "score" be time, money, customers, satisfaction, a scorecard, or simply not losing your job.
The reason we are focusing on this point is that we feel that many people are focusing on the contents of the world ("the filler") without remembering that to enjoy the end result, many people need to be given some scored tasks to complete ("the gameplay".)
While we certainly need the former, and it's (in my opinion, at least) the task which requires the most talent and time, we are currently lacking in the latter so that's where we're focusing the competition.
kind regards,
chris
Chris,
Just a thought...but...perhaps if you supplied a simple, small, basic and bare ( no treez, houses, etc ) demo of what you want may help many to understand what is expected.
Just my 2 cents.
Have fun,
Ron
JamesMoody
Trainz Team
For a demonstration of the kind of thing we want, look at the built-in sessions I mentioned earlier. These range from linear "drive from A to B via C, D and E" (and we check you stop at each required station for the required period of time, don't pass red signals, don't speed, and so on), to the much more freeform "deliver this amount of cargo to these locations" which allows you to complete it in different ways, as long as the job gets done. Again, we check for rule violations along the way.
Are you saying that scoring can be simply monitoring for rule violations?
Where can I find a tutorial on understanding the HTML asset that is referred to in the TRS2006 Session and Rules Guide? I searched Trainzwiki and found very little including "See HTML Tutorials for examples" but there was no link and no examples.
At the most basic level, we expect the following:
* The session provides clear objectives to the user on startup.
* The session allows the user to access the current objectives at any time during gameplay.
* The session offers ongoing advice to the user where necessary.
* The session checks that the stated objectives are being met.
* The session checks that any implied objectives (eg. not derailing the trains, not exceeding the speed limits, etc.) are being met.
Bonus points for the following:
* Providing a mechanism for penalising or warning the user that does not involve terminating the session.
* Providing a mechanism for rating the user throughout the session such that the user can track their progress.
* Providing a mechanism for rating the user at the completion of the session, such that the user can improve their performance in subsequent runs.
* Providing achievements which require some meaningful effort to accomplish.
Keep in mind that this is not an absolute list of "must have" items, but rather a guide for the kind of behaviours that we'll be looking for.
kind regards,
chris
misterchugg
Active member
hi chris
how do i include the items you mentioned above into a session?
i would love to redo caboolture to rockhampton with very viable objectives in mind.
i may be dumb here, but how do i include the checking facilities that you talk about?
also the mechanisms?
i'm not a total new user, but i have no inkling of how you go about that
i know how to make a session, but not the rest of it
sorry if i sound dumb
cheers
ron
how do i include the items you mentioned above into a session?
i would love to redo caboolture to rockhampton with very viable objectives in mind.
i may be dumb here, but how do i include the checking facilities that you talk about?
also the mechanisms?
i'm not a total new user, but i have no inkling of how you go about that
i know how to make a session, but not the rest of it
sorry if i sound dumb
cheers
ron
Unfortunately I don't have time to give you a complete step-by-step at the current time. It's on our must-do list for the documentation but it's a lengthy process to explain in detail.
The short answer is "session rules". Rules are exceedingly powerful when used in combinations, because they allow triggers and conditional behaviour. You are generally going to have a few rules which define behaviour for the whole session (eg. what constitutes speeding, and what to do when the player speeds.) Following that, you might have an ordered list which represents the gameplay for the session, where each rule presents the user with some instructions (Display HTML rule) or waits for the user to follow the recent instructions, or causes a change to a junction or controls an AI train.
With just the above, you can get some moderately controlled gameplay underway in just a few hours. Getting beyond that will take experimentation and can involve much more complex combinations of the same basic rules.
Not at all. It's our job to make this process as easy as possible, and part of our desire to run this competition comes from our recognition of the fact that the current system is hard to learn and can be difficult to work with.
We already know what's possible. We want to see what kind of things people are having trouble with.
kind regards,
chris
Ditto what misterchugg has asked. I have looked at several of the sessions you suggest as examples and have no clue how these things are set up. I have read the TRS2006 Sessions and Rules Guide and I am still in the dark about the HTML assets and how to check for driving rules violations.
Like misterchugg, I have created some rather amazing sessions, but trying to keep some kind of score is such a wierd concept. If this is what you think you want, a short tutorial might go a long way toward getting more folks entering this contest.
David
Like misterchugg, I have created some rather amazing sessions, but trying to keep some kind of score is such a wierd concept. If this is what you think you want, a short tutorial might go a long way toward getting more folks entering this contest.
David
Could you clarify this statement further please? I assume that you've had a look at the structure of the session rules in the (for example) TS2010 built-in ECML driving session?
While I realise that there are a lot of rules present, so it can take some time to digest in detail, I would think that it would be reasonably straightforward for you to copy the basics from such a session?
cheers,
chris
