TS2010 Session making competition - feedback

[JamesMoody]

Isn't the actual purpose of real rail roads to pick up something (where something could be lumps of coal, drops of liquid, pieces of metal, people, ... ) and take it to somewhere else?

Yup, and to do so as efficiently as possible (modulo a certain amount of "not invented here" that railways around the world seem to have).

But I'd have to agree that doing only that can be a very unrewarding. Hence what has become my obsession with AI interactions which, at least to me, add an important element of reality to sessions and an extra layer of complexity.

Once you are past a specific scale, railways are doing more picking up and dropping off than one loco and one driver can cope with. And hence there's a lot of other trains rushing about.
The interaction between trains (not just in terms of waiting for one another to clear a specific point, but also in terms of interchanging cars) is part of the interest of the session.

The key thing here though, is via the session rules, the session must manage the interactions. It shouldn't be up to the player to /guess/ when it is safe to cross a specific pinch point, or to go to the next loop. In a real railway, there is generally a dispatcher or controller figure - and if you're tasking the player to drive a train in this kind of environment, with lots of other traffic, the session should play that role. This can be done through the session rules, setting junctions and displaying messages when appropriate.

Is it even interesting to just use the 4-key view and watch the AI work their way around? Is it more interesting or have I been wasting my time?

A long time ago I had great fun with a suburban network - trying to path all those AI trains into the city terminus, at short headways. I think I had something like 18 trains per hour arriving and departing on the local lines, which gives a headway of a little over three minutes. This isn't just tight for the AI - it's tight for humans too

All of those trains were pathed into the terminus onto different platforms, and had different places to go to at the 'country end'. They would all return to the city at the correct time later on to take up their position in the sequence again.

However, I think it was more fun for me making it than it would be to watch. I'm not sure the challenge of knitting all those paths together down one track would quite come across to a casual observer.

The key to it will be to integrate a human into the sequence, and demonstrate in the session via session rules what happens if you don't drive to path, with knock-on delays and so on. Turn up early, and there's stuff in front of you, and you have to wait. Turn up late and you get pushed from pillar to post as the signaller desperately tries to find somewhere to put you where you can't cause too much more damage.

Finally, how long to make a session? Surely it more like an evening's inspiration, one evening to set it up + one more to test + a final evening packaging it all up?

Depends what you call a session. A text description in the session config file and a few wagons placed down in the session layer simply doesn't cut it. If you are building one properly, with the session rules doing such tasks as detection of rule violations, playing the role of dispatcher, and checking the player completes the task you have set, then no, it's going to take a lot longer than that.

 

[winjmoore]

I'm not really into US routes but your harbor master I've tried and really enjoyed. I think you should up your avatar from trainz veteran to trainz master.

 

[jadebullet]

That's quite some choice, so I suspect when you say "You barely have anything" you already have other unstated restrictions you have placed on what you are willing to use in the session.

Yes, yes I do. Era and road also narrow the list down substantially.

 

[dh2k3]

My suggestion would also include scenarios for those that know how to create them but that is just my opinion.

 

[WindWalkr]

My suggestion would also include scenarios for those that know how to create them but that is just my opinion.

Hi dh2k3,

The "Scenario" asset type is being phased out so we have no interest in encouraging their production.

kind regards,

chris

 

[Dap]

. . . It shouldn't be up to the player to /guess/ when it is safe to cross a specific pinch point, or to go to the next loop. In a real railway, there is generally a dispatcher or controller figure - and if you're tasking the player to drive a train in this kind of environment, with lots of other traffic, the session should play that role. This can be done through the session rules, setting junctions and displaying messages when appropriate. . .

Another method used by the prototype to control the traffic patterns is the timetable. When I create operations for a route, I always include a timetable for all the AI trains. This gives the driver a tool to help make decissions - should I go to the next passing siding? Do I have time to switch this industry before that First Class passenger train arrives?

Trainz offers so much detail in its graphics and train physics, yet it seems we are willing to settle for "Lionel like" (toy train) operations that present little challenge compared to what prototype operations presents.

I was just looking at philskene's Downtown Traction Co - Colored Boxes session. How sad that we must resort to using a car's color to identify it's destination.

I'd like to enter a route that uses my CMTM Car Destination System, but it will require adding a CMTM Portal to the route. If I add this at the session level, will it be considered a black box? Unfortunately, the Portal will not be operational because it could not be connect it to the existing trackwork. This would limit the capabilities of the system, but at least every car on the route at start-up would have a series of destinations. This would really enhance the playability of making deliveries and pick-ups.

 

[philskene]

Good thing I'm not color blind

Hi Dap --

"How sad that we must resort to using a car's color to identify it's destination."

Well, you gotta appreciate that:
a). My real life does not allow me to take a month to make one session.
b). I wasn't competing for a $1,000 prize.

When I uploaded my first route I was firmly of the belief that sessions were not necessary. I found it easy enough to construct my own to my own requirements and expected others to do likewise. A string of requests made me relent.

The tricky part is to decide at what level to pitch the session. Too easy and those of us more skilled in train operations become bored; too difficult and the newer members of our community find it too hard.

The colored box cars maybe falls in the first category. This latest session of mine probably falls in the second:

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=64270

In this session the stress starts immediately after the second train drops off the freight cars. For over an hour the questions are always "What to I do next and how can I fit between those pesky AI trainz?"

I honestly expect that most who try this session will, at least on their first attempt, either derail at a wrongly set training switch, prang into an AI, cause grid lock with the AI or just find it too damn hard to get those freight cars into and out of the industries. Using a steam locomotive (there is a diesel alternative) adds to the difficulty. And on that particular route there must be at least a dozen different ways of completing the session.
_____

Which, of course, brings us to the one piece of information that Auran has inconveniently not provided - having run this competition, what next?

Is the intent to incorporate the session into TS201x (where x = an integer greater than 0)?

If it was up to me I'd consider a free demo of the route and session only, downloadable through Steam, train-sim and other gaming sites, with words like "When you are bored with driving a HST up and down the main line in RailWorks or want better graphics than MSTS, try this". Or "This was not make by Auran. It was a contribution by an individual using built-in content and material from our Download Station. With a bit of practice you too can do the same".

Phil

 

[Dap]

Hi Dap --

"How sad that we must resort to using a car's color to identify it's destination."

Well, you gotta appreciate that:
a). My real life does not allow me to take a month to make one session.
b). I wasn't competing for a $1,000 prize. . . .

Phil,

My remark was not directed at you or your fine work in Trainz, but to the sad state of Trainz in failing to giving us tools that will make creating truly challenging prototypical sessions possible. Please do not take my comment personally. In looking at another route and session, the goal is to classify the freight cars in the yard, not by destination as would be done in real life, but by car type. This is as sad as using color to identify destination.

I have been looking through the built-in routes to find one that meets my requirements and am coming up short. I would like a route that has a yard of at least 5 tracks with a capacity of at least 25 cars on the shortest track. Furthermore, I'd like two arrival/departure tracks and a switching lead, neither of which includes the main.

The CN Holly Sub Division Pontiac Yard comes close and I could make it work, but not all yard switches and industry sidings (or turnouts) on this route have switch stands or levers. In driver, there is no way to access that section of track. I tried to add these on the Session layer, but they have two red arrows. Even in the Route layer, the divergent section of track needs to be deleted and replaced to get the track to accept a lever.

I am very disappointed that Trainz would include such a route as built-in. I can make the changes needed, but then it is no longer a built-in route.

I'd be happy to create sessions for Trainz, but if they want quality out, they have to give us quality in.

David

 

[WindWalkr]

Which, of course, brings us to the one piece of information that Auran has inconveniently not provided - having run this competition, what next?

Is the intent to incorporate the session into TS201x (where x = an integer greater than 0)?

Being the first competition of this type we've attempted, we're playing it largely by ear. We'd like to use the competition as a vehicle to promote the possibilities inherent in Trainz sessions, and having the winning session available under the DLS EULA gives us various options there, but we don't have anything specific in mind at this time.

kind regards,

chris

 

[olpe]

I really like the direction this thread has turned. I am also impressed with the frequent checkups and replies from Auran staff. Well done.

I feel like I should definitely give it a try. I can not promise that I will be able to complete anything acceptable (or at all), but I will put any other "projects" on hold, and the time I have for trainz, will be spent at session training and doing. I do however not have very much time for trainz at all, as I have lots of stuff going on, both professionally and in my free time...

 

[Pendolino]

I have managed to convert to 2010 the original variable tutorial session from 2004 SP2 (which also includes some simple use of rules).

Two questions:

1) can I upload it to the DLS? Its author is "Auran".

2) the session came with a Word document explaining in detail how the session is made. How can I upload it to the DLS? Will it be accepted if I add it to the session folder?

Cheers

 

[WindWalkr]

1) can I upload it to the DLS? Its author is "Auran".

There's a technical answer to this and also a legal/ethical answer.

* From a technical perspective, you can upload content as long as the KUID UserID matches your Planet Auran account. You cannot upload content which has a KUID UserID that does not match your Planet Auran account.

* From a legal perspective, you are generally not permitted to simply take someone else's work and redistribute it, modified or otherwise. If the author did not give you a clear license to redistribute the item then you leave yourself open to being sued for breach of copyright. Ask your lawyer if you need a detailed analysis of your specific case. If the author gives a license to redistribute modified versions of the item then you should be in the clear.

2) the session came with a Word document explaining in detail how the session is made. How can I upload it to the DLS? Will it be accepted if I add it to the session folder?

You cannot upload Word documents to the DLS.


hope this helps,

chris

 

[Dap]

. . . You cannot upload Word documents to the DLS.

hope this helps,

chris

Chris,

In what format can we included a document that explaines the use of an asset? For some assets, it is quite necessary to explain its usage. Are we expected to cram it all into the config file's description tag? The ability to include a .pdf file would be helpful for some assets.

From my previous post:

The CN Holly Sub Division Pontiac Yard comes close and I could make it work, but not all yard switches and industry sidings (or turnouts) on this route have switch stands or levers. In driver, there is no way to access that section of track. I tried to add these on the Session layer, but they have two red arrows. Even in the Route layer, the divergent section of track needs to be deleted and replaced to get the track to accept a lever.

Is my copy of this route corrupted or is the built-in really missing a bunch of switchlevers?

 

[johnwhelan]

Chris,

In what format can we included a document that explaines the use of an asset? For some assets, it is quite necessary to explain its usage. Are we expected to cram it all into the config file's description tag? The ability to include a .pdf file would be helpful for some assets.

From my previous post:

Is my copy of this route corrupted or is the built-in really missing a bunch of switchlevers?

I have successfully added a .txt file from time to time in an upload.

Cheerio John

 

[jadebullet]

No Dap, you don't have a corrupt version. Mine doesn't have switch levers either.

 

[Dap]

No Dap, you don't have a corrupt version. Mine doesn't have switch levers either.

This is the saddest news I have ever read on these Forums. I thought that built-in meant an above average level of quality.

 

[WindWalkr]

In what format can we included a document that explaines the use of an asset? For some assets, it is quite necessary to explain its usage.

For any user-visible asset, you should ensure that the usage is explained in-game. We do not expect or desire our users to trawl through the internal workings of an asset to be able to figure out how to use it.

If you're talking about a script library for programmer usage, or a similar type of asset, then fair enough- and it may be best to put your comments in the script interface itself.

For placeable assets which need complicated instructions, the info-url tag is probably the place to start.

For Sessions and Rules, you should ensure that your session is self-documenting. Any necessary instructions should be presented in the user interface.

chris

 

[Pendolino]

Hello Chris,

I have absolutely no intention to infringe copyright laws: I was only trying to help fellow Trainzers to understand the very basic concepts of sessions. Is it acceptable if I upload an entirely new, similar session using those same concepts and if I open a thread about the way I used rules in it? The Word document I wanted to enclose explains how to enter the various rules: it's similar to a track-laying tutorial and I don't see how it can be implemented within the session itself .

Regards

 

[WindWalkr]

Hi Pendolino,

I have absolutely no intention to infringe copyright laws: I was only trying to help fellow Trainzers to understand the very basic concepts of sessions.

Completely understood. I'm just making sure you understand that there are 'rules' beyond the simple technical ones.

Is it acceptable if I upload an entirely new, similar session using those same concepts and if I open a thread about the way I used rules in it?

Of course. My understanding is that copyright covers expression, not ideas.

The Word document I wanted to enclose explains how to enter the various rules: it's similar to a track-laying tutorial and I don't see how it can be implemented within the session itself

If you're trying to create a tutorial for people to follow, with one or more DLS assets related to that tutorial, then your best bet is to put the tutorial on a web page and reference the DLS assets from there. You are more than welcome to use the TrainzDevwiki for this.

kind regards,

chris

 

[Pendolino]

Completely understood. I'm just making sure you understand that there are 'rules' beyond the simple technical ones.

I understand that: I was only trying to be helpful since part of the 2004/Downloads section seems to have vanished.

If you're trying to create a tutorial for people to follow, with one or more DLS assets related to that tutorial, then your best bet is to put the tutorial on a web page and reference the DLS assets from there. You are more than welcome to use the TrainzDevwiki for this.

I didn't think about the possibility of using the TrainzDevwiki. Thanks for the advice!

Kind Regards