Trainz Update Announcement (SP6)

[pware]

'Betas are not intended for users who want to do serious route building' is a confusing statement

Betas are always full of bugs and even CTDs - and that is true for all software, not just Trainz.

If you do some serious route building using a beta and encounter a bug or a CTD where your hard worked data cannot be recovered then you have wasted all that time and effort. I have certainly experienced that when I once decided to do some serious route building using a beta version and lost all the data. Fortunately it was for a new route that I had no intention of ever finishing - it was a test bed for the beta. I just thought it was strange that they recommend "no serious route building" with a beta when I thought that that would be the one sure method of discovering new bugs, which I did.

 

[JCitron]

Betas are always full of bugs and even CTDs - and that is true for all software, not just Trainz.

If you do some serious route building using a beta and encounter a bug or a CTD where your hard worked data cannot be recovered then you have wasted all that time and effort. I have certainly experienced that when I once decided to do some serious route building using a beta version and lost all the data. Fortunately it was for a new route that I had no intention of ever finishing - it was a test bed for the beta. I just thought it was strange that they recommend "no serious route building" with a beta when I thought that that would be the one sure method of discovering new bugs, which I did.

I agree! I have a duplicate of my Trainz data and database I use for testing. It takes me a day or two to get things settled down before I do any testing and as you've found out this is when we find the bugs. Testing using built-in assets doesn't always find anything.

 

[WestSideRailways]

I don't know why people using Trainz PLUS are complaining for......
N3V have NEVER said how long Train PLUS would be running for....

It is a BETA version and properly all ways will be....

If you can not handle that , then WHY are you using the BETA version.!!

I am NOT and never will be a rivet counter.

One of the things that I would like N3V to get working... is the TLR.

Everyone has a different reason for wanting this and that....

So this is my RANT.... you don't like .... Just keep scrolling....

 

[paulper]

I do not know what you expect to happen or even if you understand the software development cycle and how it works (most or some of the time).

The latest non-beta build for Plus is 132284 (the released version to use John's sensible terminology in his post above). My understanding is that build 133407 is the latest Plus beta version (the test version). I disagree that both are betas as you seem to be suggesting in post #376. Continued software development is different to betas in my view, with the latter being test versions.

Notwithstanding that, my point wasn't about the software (i.e. TRS22 PE or Plus, or whatever), but the features of whatever iteration of the software that have remained in a beta state (sometimes for years as amigacooke rightly points out), and if it isn't a beta version then the feature or change has ended up with additional limitations that reduce the benefits of it (as I discussed above).

The 'enjoy new features first' marketing highlight for Trainz Plus in the product comparison does not come with a warning that these will be in beta state only - either not working as intended, not the full feature or that Plus users are seemingly going to be responsible for testing it and submitting reports. It gives no impression at all that none of these 'new features' may forever be in a beta state as part of one's subscription to Plus.

I therefore cannot help but feel disappointed with the way that Plus has turned out and that the development of Plus is not what I expected based on N3V's marketing of it.

Can we at least agree that Surveyor 1 is not still in a beta state?!

 

[pware]

Can we at least agree that Surveyor 1 is not still in a beta state?

If you define "not still in a beta state" as no longer in development, then probably yes.

Technically, every software item ever released is in "a beta state" even if not labelled "beta". Because when new bugs are found, not if they are found (no such thing as "bug free" software), then a fix will usually, eventually, be released until the next bug is found (in either the "fix" itself or in the original software) ... and the process continues in an endless cycle for as long as that software is continuing to evolve and updates are released. This is the software maintenance cycle and continues until someone decides to stop development and support of that particular release. After that, no more bug fixes.

My copy of Trainz Plus build 134634 is a beta version. How do I know this: It is in the Trainz Plus Beta Update Stream - look in Trainz Settings -> Install -> Change Trainz Update Stream.... To remind me of this, every time I launch it the letters "Beta Stream" in big, bold, white appear on the bottom right of the launcher - I added that to the background graphic myself. Every time I discover a bug I report it - it is part of being a beta tester.

My copy of Trainz Plus build 132284 is not in the Trainz Plus Beta Update Stream so it is, allowing for my statement at the start of the second paragraph above, a retail release. It still has bugs as does all software and these bugs, if you discover any, should be reported via the Bug Reporting Page.

When I signed up for the Trainz Plus subscription, I was fully aware of the status of its new features as "experimental" (code for probably "buggy") and I accepted that. I also accepted that Trainz Plus is a work in progress, with new features that will appear (e.g. TLR, Multiplayer Surveyor, etc) that are not yet in a full operating mode.

TANE, TRS19 and TRS22 are more like "fixed" products in that they will probably not receive updates with major new features. They will certainly receive bug fixes and probably some "housekeeping" changes.

I therefore cannot help but feel disappointed with the way that Plus has turned out and that the development of Plus is not what I expected based on N3V's marketing of it.

Apart from the subscription side of things, Trainz Plus is not for everyone. I, on the other hand, am quite satisfied with Trainz Plus, both the beta and non-beta versions, and will continue the subscription.

 

[paulper]

When I signed up for the Trainz Plus subscription, I was fully aware of the status of its new features as "experimental" (code for probably "buggy") and I accepted that. I also accepted that Trainz Plus is a work in progress, with new features that will appear (e.g. TLR, Multiplayer Surveyor, etc) that are not yet in a full operating mode.

Your above response is about the beta status of the software, when my issue is the features themselves. I think there is a very obvious distinction between the marketing of Plus saying 'access to new features' and what it means in reality, which is 'access to beta versions of new features' or 'test new features' or 'try the basics of new features' that, quite frankly, years later, have not become fully working features that are 'no longer in development' to coin your phrase. It is fine for you to be content with a lack of fully finished 'new features' during the last 4 years, but I don't think I'm unreasonable in coming to a different view.

 

[amigacooke]

If you define "not still in a beta state" as no longer in development, then probably yes.

Technically, every software item ever released is in "a beta state" even if not labelled "beta". Because when new bugs are found, not if they are found (no such thing as "bug free" software), then a fix will usually, eventually, be released until the next bug is found (in either the "fix" itself or in the original software) ... and the process continues in an endless cycle for as long as that software is continuing to evolve and updates are released. This is the software maintenance cycle and continues until someone decides to stop development and support of that particular release. After that, no more bug fixes.

My copy of Trainz Plus build 134634 is a beta version. How do I know this: It is in the Trainz Plus Beta Update Stream - look in Trainz Settings -> Install -> Change Trainz Update Stream.... To remind me of this, every time I launch it the letters "Beta Stream" in big, bold, white appear on the bottom right of the launcher - I added that to the background graphic myself. Every time I discover a bug I report it - it is part of being a beta tester.

My copy of Trainz Plus build 132284 is not in the Trainz Plus Beta Update Stream so it is, allowing for my statement at the start of the second paragraph above, a retail release. It still has bugs as does all software and these bugs, if you discover any, should be reported via the Bug Reporting Page.

When I signed up for the Trainz Plus subscription, I was fully aware of the status of its new features as "experimental" (code for probably "buggy") and I accepted that. I also accepted that Trainz Plus is a work in progress, with new features that will appear (e.g. TLR, Multiplayer Surveyor, etc) that are not yet in a full operating mode.

TANE, TRS19 and TRS22 are more like "fixed" products in that they will probably not receive updates with major new features. They will certainly receive bug fixes and probably some "housekeeping" changes.

Apart from the subscription side of things, Trainz Plus is not for everyone. I, on the other hand, am quite satisfied with Trainz Plus, both the beta and non-beta versions, and will continue the subscription.

If the contention that all modern software is always in beta until development ceases, I really can’t see how Trainz is modern software as even Plus has a release version and a beta version. Does this imply that N3V don’t understand modern development or they are mislabelling betas as release versions?

If there is no difference between the beta version and the release version, then there would only be a beta version.

I think John inadvertently defined what’s beta and what isn’t, if it’s a version for testing, it’s a beta, if not it’s not.

 

[HPL]

I don't know why people using Trainz PLUS are complaining for......
N3V have NEVER said how long Train PLUS would be running for....

It is a BETA version and properly all ways will be....

Trainz Plus is a retail version, not a beta (see here).

 

[pware]

It is fine for you to be content with a lack of fully finished 'new features' during the last 4 years, but I don't think I'm unreasonable in coming to a different view.

I have no problems with your different view. It is all a matter of opinions based on different expectations, experiences, etc.

As for the time frame (4 years), how many programmers do you think N3V have and how many other aspects of Trainz are they working on? Sure, they could probably get and train (no pun) more programmers who would have to be paid, get leave and sick entitlements, etc. But who would end up paying for that?

'access to new features' and what it means in reality, which is 'access to beta versions of new features' or 'test new features'

We are arguing semantics here.

Take the TLR as an example. When it was introduced in the beta version of Trainz Plus and later in the non-beta mainstream version it was made very clear that it was a "work in progress" and only "worked" (with bugs) with freight consists - not with passenger consists. It gave Trainz Plus users a chance to use it so see what it did and to identify and report the bugs they found. It was far from perfect. Subsequent beta updates made changes to the Dispatcher and other systems that improved its operation but it was still not complete.

January this year in the Trainz Plus and TRS22 Beta Forum ...

We have the latest TLR Phase 3 build ready for testing.

For those trying the TLR Phase 3 beta build for the first time, please refer to https://forums.auran.com/threads/trainz-plus-beta-tlr-phase-3-132833.182313/ for details on all the new Dispatch Manager & Passenger Line features.

Key Features:

• Passenger Support (TLR)
• Advanced Dispatch Settings
• Automatic Runaround Support

plus other changes.

I really can’t see how Trainz is modern software as even Plus has a release version and a beta version.

The beta versions are test versions. They are used by beta testers, brave and hardy (sometimes foolhardy) souls who take on the task of putting the beta version through its paces testing both new and old features to identify problems. As I have posted earlier in this thread, with betas you expect to find more issues than you would in a release version.

The basic process is, with many variations, is (sorry for the essay):-

1. Programmers create an update to an existing program - either a new feature or a major fix. That update is classified an "Alpha Version" and is tested "in house" by company staff on their existing machines to find any major issues. If found those issues are fixed and the process is repeated. A great deal depends on the hardware that is available for testing and some issues are missed. For example: a Trainz SP a few years ago the alpha passed without major issues but when it was released as a Beta (the next step) a few users did have issues. The problem was caused by those users not having a particular Windows API update installed. So how many systems with different hardware components, system driver versions installed (or not installed), OS versions, AV software, etc, etc would N3V need to have "in house" to test the Alphas for all possible issues. That is why the Beta stage is so important.
2. If the Alpha tests are passed then the updated program moves to the Beta stage - this could be a selected few external beta testers, a mass beta testing open to all brave or foolish enough to volunteer or a staged combination of both. This has the advantage of testing the updated program in "the wild" with more hardware, drivers, system and OS configurations but it does depend on those testers providing feedback - which not all do. Some seem to become beta testers only to try out any new features before anyone else. The Beta version will usually have some monitoring and reporting code embedded to make feedback easier. In the case of Trainz the betas have the annoying "Assertion Popups" that appear whenever something has gone wrong or the code has encountered and handled some unexpected data. The feedback from the testers, via the bug reporting page, allows N3V QA and developers to analyze the problem and apply fixes. Each fix becomes a new Alpha and is tested in house as shown in Step 1. When enough fixes have been made and passed through the Alpha testing then a new Beta is released and the beta testing process begins again.
3. At some point in the process a decision is made to issue a Release Candidate to the beta testers. This is what the developers believe, barring the discovery of some unnoticed bug, will become the next SP update. Bearing in mind that it will contain bugs that none of the testing has revealed. If it passes the beta testers without new issues then it will be released as the next SP with the assertion popups removed.

The process is not perfect. There was one bug that I discovered and reported in beta testing an earlier version of Trainz (I forget which but possibly TS12) that was not fixed until several versions later (TRS19 or TRS22). I even posted about it in the forums immediately after I discovered it and the last time I looked that thread still had 0 replies so I must have been the only one who noticed or reported it.

Yes, there are plenty of bugs still in Trainz, as there is in every software ever released for general use. The difference between the beta and the release versions is, as I have emphasized in Point 2 above, that the betas often have additional analysis code inserted or other features. Trainz betas also have, for some reason, the automatic precaching disabled, which makes loading routes slower but must provide some benefit for the testing process.

Does this imply that N3V don’t understand modern development or they are mislabelling betas as release versions?

As explained above, the beta versions are not the same as the release versions.

 

[amigacooke]

As explained above, the beta versions are not the same as the release versions.

I think everyone understood that until some parties tried to claim that everything is technically a beta.

 

[pware]

tried to claim that everything is technically a beta

Well technically it is. Most people assume that a beta is an unfinished version that has bugs, and that description fits every software product that is still "active" and still getting updates. The standard joke about Microsoft is that we, their customers, are all "beta testers" for their products that are full of bugs and in need of constant updates.

Real beta software, as I posted above, is designed specifically for testing and contain some coding that is different to that used in the release or retail versions.