Trainz Update Announcement (SP6)

[paulper]

As a test I just merged my two largest routes into a 400+MB monster ("monster" by my standards) and I am seeing a noticeable drop in the FPS, particularly in asset rich (i.e. built up urban) areas. The two separate routes (210MB and 195MB) work perfectly without any issues in SP6.

I always take a minimalist approach to asset selection (e.g. no tree splines or billboard trees, lots of LoRes assets at distances from the track, using assets with LOD data where they were suitable and available, etc) so there is little further pruning that I could do.

I will join you in waiting to see what develops with the next update or TRS26 (whichever is first).

Presumably that's 2 bugs that you've reported now regarding SP6?

 

[ivomasek]

The fix is simple. "Update" to SP5 (everything worked there). And they can call it SP7 (and everyone will be happy). The Trainz game is not free. And it is not exactly cheap. There is no room for experimentation with a paid product. A paid product has to work.

Ivo

 

[HPL]

Midwestern Rails ran smooth in SP5 but in SP6, its a slide show no matter where I go.

That's exactly what I experienced (reported here) and N3V's answer is here. It was in the RC build but same issue once SP6 was pushed on. No further news since... Note that several other routes (including DLCs) have the exact same problem.

 

[Sanek17]

And the developers don’t want to communicate with us anymore?

 

[HPL]

They did communicate via the Newsletter touting SP6's performance optimization. But they never play their own game, otherwise they would know that SP6 looks like an amateur game in an early development phase.

 

[paulper]

They did communicate via the Newsletter touting SP6's performance optimization. But they never play their own game, otherwise they would know that SP6 looks like an amateur game in an early development phase.

I might be wrong, but I'm not sure that anyone that hasn't had issues with SP6 has been able to state it has improved performance.

 

[HPL]

At last N3V reacts! Here.

 

[pware]

Presumably that's 2 bugs that you've reported now regarding SP6?

Not yet. I am currently testing to narrow down the problem.

The last time I merged the same two routes in SP5 there was an identical issue. I discovered that some small grasses and small bushes I had been painting throughout large parts of the route using the Scrapbook Brush had asset file sizes in excess of 1MB each. Replacing those with far less memory intensive grasses and bushes resolved the problem. Since then I have been adding other assets and now I have noticed that some of the road spline assets have file sizes of around 4.5MB (I am presuming that is per spline segment???) and I have hundreds of kms of these road assets throughout the route. Currently removing them in stages and retesting - a slow process.

EDIT: Preliminary Results:

Phase 1 of the testing, to remove all the road splines and run a session, now complete. I can report that, apart from a very minor drop in FPS in the most asset dense area of the route, all the "stuttering" has gone.

 

[HPL]

From N3V's latest post: "...recently introduced memory management system..." and further: "...the limiter...". So there is a memory limit in SP6 if someone still was in doubt...

 

[pware]

Not in doubt at all.

Our internal testing has confirmed that a recently introduced memory management system is being triggered more often than we expected in certain routes. This system was introduced to reduce crashes caused by excessive memory consumption. We expect that this is likely the cause of much or all of the reloading/redrawing of scenery, especially splines.

You seem to be confusing "memory management" (Windows has that as well) with "memory limit". As easy mistake to make.

 

[JCitron]

It seems we can add you to the 'growing number' of posters in this thread that now have issues! Even if you refuse to ever call them out on it.


Whether there is some new memory limit or not, something they changed is irrefutably affecting (larger?) routes. No, I imagine there wasn't any limit before, hence if there is some kind of one now, what would that make it? It could also very well just be the typical botched coding.

Yes, there could have been something misinterpreted and they meant hardware limits instead, most likely tied to the GPU's VRAM as opposed to system RAM (I can place hundreds of third-party payware rolling stock on a detailed route at max settings without hitting 16GB of RAM, widely considered the bare minimum these days). That doesn't change the fact that if things were working fine in SP5 and don't in SP6 that the hardware isn't the problem.

Either way, the main point is how are we to know? It's been a week now and not a whisper from N3V. No, they don't tend to communicate much here outside of their occasional "We are going to communicate with our userbase now" that might last a couple of weeks before the crickets return, but there is no chance they haven't seen any of these responses on their own release thread.

This isn't a physical system limit. This is internal game memory limits. Programs, particularly games have a "budget" to work with to ensure performance is up to par. This doesn't matter how much actual RAM your system has or what your video card has installed. N3V devs have admitted that there budgeting code may have an issue and they are looking into it.

I have 64GB system RAM. The RTX3080 comes with 10GB of dedicated onboard RAM, and that uses 32GB of system RAM for sharing textures.

 

[Paul_Bert]

Good day



Yes, unfortunately it is as you describe. Large maps have a big problem after the update. What worked normally before the update, does not work after the update.

Map: A small piece of Europe 4:

ivomasek
ID: 276055

I would submit this route and your screen shots to the help desk now that they have acknowledged that their is an issue. I tested this route and i got the same results as you have. It’s the first route I’ve tested that i have seen the issue.

 

[Cayden]

What you are seeing looks, to me, to be a PBR texture effect. That effect (and others) has been around since PBR ground textures were introduced in TRS19. It is not unique to Trainz as other sims and games that use PBR ground textures also suffer the same effects. The ground texture shown in the track close-up at about the half way point of the video looks like it is a PBR.

My theory at least.

See the Trainz Wiki at How_to_Use_S20_Tools#Using_PBR_Textures for a more detailed explanation and suggested remedies.

What is the point of PBR textures if you can’t put them near or under the track where the parallax effect can be seen and appreciated?

As you say, using Trainz 22 SP4 and later on a PC appears to not allow the use of PBR textures near or under the track.

But that’s not the case for Trainz 22 SP4 on a Mac. Sadly, it appears to be the case for Trainz 22 SP5 and Trainz 22 SP6 on a Mac.

Fortunately, I have been able to revert back to Trainz 22 SP4.

In Trainz 22 SP4 you can see the effect of PBR ballast surrounding an unballasted track asset. I spent a couple of months achieving this result over 150 miles of track.

The fact that I have not been able to achieve this result in Trainz 22 SP4 on a PC is the main reason I have not and cannot make my Canadian Pacific Railway Mountain Subdivision route available on the DLS or otherwise, i.e., on my website. Another reason is that the route with High Density (HD) terrain and Physically Based Rending (PBR) is 5.44 GB, much too large to be saved as a CPD file.

I have little hope that N3V will address this issue. I am not even sure they realize it is an issue.

As the Wiki says,

“PBR (Physically Based Rendering) textures have been a part of Trainz since TRS19…”

“PBR Textures do have a few downsides compared to non-PBR textures. Specifically,

They do not mix well with non-PBR textures (including textures used as ballast in track) and, sometimes, with other PBR textures as well. This can cause "height issues" where the two different textures meet. There are techniques that can be used to remove these conflicts.

Sudden (steep) changes in the ground height under a PBR texture can cause an "animation effect" under the texture that has been likened to "wobbling jelly" or moving "jellyfish guts". …”.

“These issues are not unique to Trainz and can be found in all games/sims that use PBR ground textures.”

So, this means it can’t be fixed?

Works in Trainz 22 SP4.

Now that I have Trainz 22 SP4 back I will be sticking to this version until a new version (not an SP update) comes out.

Cayden

 

[pware]

using Trainz 22 SP4 and later on a PC appears to not allow the use of PBR textures near or under the track.

No, this has been the issue with PBR textures since it first appeared in TRS19. There are techniques to eliminate or hide these effects and the effect does vary between different splines and different PBR textures - some PBR textures seem to have a larger height component than others, for example.

I, for one, will not go back to using the old boring textures simply because a bit of extra work is needed near splines.

I have little hope that N3V will address this issue. I am not even sure they realize it is an issue.

As this is an issue with PBR textures in all sims and games that use them (and they are now commonly found in the surface textures used in 3D meshes) then a solution would have to be found "at the source" - something that is outside the control of N3V. You would have to find a replacement method and the necessary software to create and use the new textures. Something like Plant Factory replacing SpeedTrees in the creation of 3D plants.

N3V are well aware of the issue as they were amongst the first (if not the first) to post advice on dealing with it.

Works in Trainz 22 SP4.

Well no, it doesn't work any better in TRS22 SP4 than it has ever worked since TRS19 or how it works in TRS22 SP5 or SP6.

 

[passanger]

Those ones who experience the issues with performance, shuddering and improperly loaded objects/splines, please, try the following:

remove all AI trains from the session and try driving alone.

I've done that this morning and guess what? Shuddering is less, all the objects load as they should.
If somebody can confirm this, please let N3V support know about this. It seems they look for wrong OR not all of the root causes for the problems.

 

[HPL]

Maybe AI trains don't help, but all issues with SP6 I had occurred without any on the map.

 

[UP5521]

Is it me or when using any multi-industry tracks, putting in the products no longer works, the product tab does not load the list, the queue and the process does not work either, I'd like to report this as a bug when using them.

 

[RBrooks]

AI trainz or something else - everything is affecting the performance, practically every object. Deleting some things or others, whether it's trains or trees or houses or tracks whatever, will positively affect the performance, it has always been that way.

The thing is in SP5 same areas worked fine (or at least passable). Now it seems like every little detail affects the performance, hence we can't build realistic large routes. That's the issue here. Of course if we start to delete such and such object, it'll help. That's not what we should do if the same scenes worked before. That's what we're talking about here. Something has changed in N3V game code, and it effected a lot of stuff rather negatively.

 

[Twowit2woo]

Completely clear the game of caches and other leftovers from the other version. To fix everything that is possible at once after update, do the following:

Close the game. In the default directory if it has not been changed: %LOCALAPPDATA%\N3V Games\trs22
Leave folders only (do not delete):

packages - Purchased content
original - Downloaded from the DLS
local - Installed from other sources
backups - Backups, if you need it

Delete all other files and folders.

After that run a DBR (or it will start automatically after run the launcher.)
and next you will need to log in to your account in the launcher and restore settings again.

This made no difference for me.

 

[Twowit2woo]

• For those who would like to reverse to SP5: in your "MyTrainz", right-click the Download button for SP6, copy the link and paste it into your browser, then replace the SP6 Build# with the SP5 one and hit Enter (e.g. for Trainz Plus, replace 131950 with 128486). This will download SP5. It will work until N3V removes it from their server.
• For Trainz Plus, don't forget to patch to 129343 (SP5 Hotfix).

This isn't working for me.

The link I get is a zip file:

https://dl1.n3vgames.com/Installers/TRS22/23Q2/TRS22-Offline-Installer-126273.zip

I've tried replacing the 126273 with both 128487 and 129335.