My apologies. I was working from memory and remembered wrongly. I should have checked.
John
Trainz - Comprehensive Manual Available
- Thread starter novastorm2000
- Start date
John
Hi Guys, some background:
The original Content Creators Guide for SP3 - UTC was produced by Vaughan Kidd of Auran, and he did a good job. I was asked to update it for TRS 2004 and onwards until Trainz Classics 1/2. There was some delays in getting an updated version released after each new version release, as Auran had to justify the need and expenditure.
My position was that without complete documentation, creators would desert the platform as it would be too much trouble searching the new features by trial and error. I feel this has happpened somewhat with the Wiki. I tried to add useful information to the CCGs, I found the original docs were the theory, but lacking on what I called the "interface between 3dsmax (gmax) and Trainz", so I tried to introduce info on problems you might find getting a model to export and actually work in Trainz.
It is also difficult finding someone who is conversant and familiar in all aspects of Trainz. A programmer who does not "play" with Trainz, or a user who does not understanding scripting cannot explain all the functions of a very complex but additictive simulator. This is where input from the community for a complete document would be useful to cover all the aspects of Trainz, some know a lot about small sections of Trainz and a community effort could result in a very good coverage.
It was thought that updated appendicies would be added to the origional documentation for each new version (I started that in the CCG for TC). Following the development of TRS2009, I understand Auran were to rely on the Wiki format as easily updatable, but I found that I could not find anything by searching, sections were not complete etc, so haven't spent much time there. You really need complete sections for new features - how to utilise new 3dsmax plugins - complete info on doing bump mapping - examples and full explanation of stitched track etc.
I had found that an indexed pdf document was the best way to find something, however the CCG TC was becoming an enormous document and required a review to take out obsoleted or wrong information. I still like to have a copy on my computer for offline use, not a Wiki - I can't print that and take it to bed to read.
For the original CCGs up to CCGTC the document was composed in Indesign, and exported as a pdf file. There may be few who have used the program.
I have copies of the final Indesign doc, the format requires separate diagrams, not embedded like Word. I don't know how or if it can be converted to any other format, I think Word would crash with the shear volume of info and data anyway. I found Word locked up trying to convert large files to pdf.
Should Auran agree I suppose I could make an Indesign copy available if someone wants to continue the work. You should also seek an opinion from Auran on the future of the Wiki and any conflict.
One other thing I found annoying was the lack of document updates for the Content Manager in TS2009 - the help function still uses the old TRS2006 screens which are not valid, and quite a lot more explanatpon of the new serach (filter) functions and all aspects of the Content Manager would be useful to new users. I wonder if they have been updated for the TS2010 version. The key aspect is that documentation costs money, and is the last priority usually, so is missed out when the deadlines draw near.
Ian
The original Content Creators Guide for SP3 - UTC was produced by Vaughan Kidd of Auran, and he did a good job. I was asked to update it for TRS 2004 and onwards until Trainz Classics 1/2. There was some delays in getting an updated version released after each new version release, as Auran had to justify the need and expenditure.
My position was that without complete documentation, creators would desert the platform as it would be too much trouble searching the new features by trial and error. I feel this has happpened somewhat with the Wiki. I tried to add useful information to the CCGs, I found the original docs were the theory, but lacking on what I called the "interface between 3dsmax (gmax) and Trainz", so I tried to introduce info on problems you might find getting a model to export and actually work in Trainz.
It is also difficult finding someone who is conversant and familiar in all aspects of Trainz. A programmer who does not "play" with Trainz, or a user who does not understanding scripting cannot explain all the functions of a very complex but additictive simulator. This is where input from the community for a complete document would be useful to cover all the aspects of Trainz, some know a lot about small sections of Trainz and a community effort could result in a very good coverage.
It was thought that updated appendicies would be added to the origional documentation for each new version (I started that in the CCG for TC). Following the development of TRS2009, I understand Auran were to rely on the Wiki format as easily updatable, but I found that I could not find anything by searching, sections were not complete etc, so haven't spent much time there. You really need complete sections for new features - how to utilise new 3dsmax plugins - complete info on doing bump mapping - examples and full explanation of stitched track etc.
I had found that an indexed pdf document was the best way to find something, however the CCG TC was becoming an enormous document and required a review to take out obsoleted or wrong information. I still like to have a copy on my computer for offline use, not a Wiki - I can't print that and take it to bed to read.
For the original CCGs up to CCGTC the document was composed in Indesign, and exported as a pdf file. There may be few who have used the program.
I have copies of the final Indesign doc, the format requires separate diagrams, not embedded like Word. I don't know how or if it can be converted to any other format, I think Word would crash with the shear volume of info and data anyway. I found Word locked up trying to convert large files to pdf.
Should Auran agree I suppose I could make an Indesign copy available if someone wants to continue the work. You should also seek an opinion from Auran on the future of the Wiki and any conflict.
One other thing I found annoying was the lack of document updates for the Content Manager in TS2009 - the help function still uses the old TRS2006 screens which are not valid, and quite a lot more explanatpon of the new serach (filter) functions and all aspects of the Content Manager would be useful to new users. I wonder if they have been updated for the TS2010 version. The key aspect is that documentation costs money, and is the last priority usually, so is missed out when the deadlines draw near.
Ian
Well heck...
The Content Creators Guide for TRS2004 was for that version. I printed that version.
The Content Creators Guide for TRS2006 was recommended for TS2009 also...I refer to the .pdf.
TS2009 lasted a year?
I'd say the CCG should wait until the ultimate or lasting build should await it's arrival...
But doing content creation for each version would be nice...!
What is the platform in use? C, C+, C++....?
Even the original CCG is still pertinent to some extent, because you can export & configure to TRS2006....that helps for CCP in TS2009.
Aside of binary textures or .pm exports, everything works fine provided that any custom or presently used scripts are added to the asset folder....& no trash is left in the export mesh file that is not needed.
Normal mapping, well heck, if you have the CAD & graphics programs that matter, you don't have to worry!
The Content Creators Guide for TRS2004 was for that version. I printed that version.The Content Creators Guide for TRS2006 was recommended for TS2009 also...I refer to the .pdf.
TS2009 lasted a year?
I'd say the CCG should wait until the ultimate or lasting build should await it's arrival...
But doing content creation for each version would be nice...!
What is the platform in use? C, C+, C++....?
Even the original CCG is still pertinent to some extent, because you can export & configure to TRS2006....that helps for CCP in TS2009.
Aside of binary textures or .pm exports, everything works fine provided that any custom or presently used scripts are added to the asset folder....& no trash is left in the export mesh file that is not needed.
Normal mapping, well heck, if you have the CAD & graphics programs that matter, you don't have to worry!
Thanks for the insight Ian. having read it I'm beginning to think that PHYMyFAQ or a similar program may do the job okay. It would seem that the project is far too big for any individual or even a small group that seem to be developing around this thread.
Off the cuff, I would suggest that we the group, initially submit questions to the script, hopefully covering every contingency. When that is done, the wider communty could be invited to supply answers. It may take forever for some questions to be answered, and many may end up with multiple answers which may even conflict with each other.
At some stage down the track, someone (maybe a group) could sift through the answers and tag those they consider the best. As a typesetter, moving those over to a PDF document would be a relatively simple but lengthy task.
My concerns with a PDF document is one of updatig as new material comes forward. I'm inclined to think it would be better for visitors to print sections from the site as they need them. The program I've uploaded allows for this, but I have no idea how good the results would be.
If all interested parties could enter a dozen questions as an exercise, we could see how it builds up. As there are no caregories except the ones I've entered, you will also have to register to get access as an individual. Please PM me for the administrator's access where you can see the thing working from the admin side.
I'll also hunt around for a better program, but this one may be the best of the freebies.
I think Moodle approaches things from a completely different aspect, but I'll still have a go at uploading it tonight.
Auran should be approached as you say, but I think there are a few people within the thread who would be best sited to do this. But first - a plan!
Off the cuff, I would suggest that we the group, initially submit questions to the script, hopefully covering every contingency. When that is done, the wider communty could be invited to supply answers. It may take forever for some questions to be answered, and many may end up with multiple answers which may even conflict with each other.
At some stage down the track, someone (maybe a group) could sift through the answers and tag those they consider the best. As a typesetter, moving those over to a PDF document would be a relatively simple but lengthy task.
My concerns with a PDF document is one of updatig as new material comes forward. I'm inclined to think it would be better for visitors to print sections from the site as they need them. The program I've uploaded allows for this, but I have no idea how good the results would be.
If all interested parties could enter a dozen questions as an exercise, we could see how it builds up. As there are no caregories except the ones I've entered, you will also have to register to get access as an individual. Please PM me for the administrator's access where you can see the thing working from the admin side.
I'll also hunt around for a better program, but this one may be the best of the freebies.
I think Moodle approaches things from a completely different aspect, but I'll still have a go at uploading it tonight.
Auran should be approached as you say, but I think there are a few people within the thread who would be best sited to do this. But first - a plan!
amigacooke
Well-known member
I would have thought up to date documentation for content creators is a must. It's not much good selling a new platform with new features that only a very few content creators are able to use.
I'm glad to see that this issue is at least being discussed. It came up briefly on the TrainzDev forum but faded away pretty quickly.
Wikis are great if you're online while you need the information. My Trainz PC is not connected to the internet, as I neither want to risk having several years of work (not just Trainz) trashed by some malignant virus-writing thug, nor have my machine slowed down by anti-virus software. I do all of my browsing/downloading on an old junker with Win98.
A possible ideal?: a wiki as it is now, continually updated as it is now, and a PDF "snapshot" of it created on a regular basis (possibly automated?). I'm under the impression that the Blender .pdf documentation was created from their wiki in this way. I have no problem with downloading an updated copy of the PDF as needed and keeping it on my working machine; even printing it out occasionally so I have hard copy to refer to (knowing that there may be some newer information missing). But the idea of trying to create content while wading through an online wiki (which with a dial-up connection is like swimming in hardening cement) is, shall we say, slightly unappealing?
--Lamont
Wikis are great if you're online while you need the information. My Trainz PC is not connected to the internet, as I neither want to risk having several years of work (not just Trainz) trashed by some malignant virus-writing thug, nor have my machine slowed down by anti-virus software. I do all of my browsing/downloading on an old junker with Win98.
A possible ideal?: a wiki as it is now, continually updated as it is now, and a PDF "snapshot" of it created on a regular basis (possibly automated?). I'm under the impression that the Blender .pdf documentation was created from their wiki in this way. I have no problem with downloading an updated copy of the PDF as needed and keeping it on my working machine; even printing it out occasionally so I have hard copy to refer to (knowing that there may be some newer information missing). But the idea of trying to create content while wading through an online wiki (which with a dial-up connection is like swimming in hardening cement) is, shall we say, slightly unappealing?
--Lamont
novastorm2000
Member
A few more Penny's worth of opinion
I still think that we have two paradigms here we are trying to satisfy.
1.> The Online ever green resource with or without collaboration.
2.> The static manual people can grab and use offline
Much of this discussion focuses on one but does not offer much for two.
Sometimes technology can consume us rather than help us and thzats often how I feel about Online based content. Its great for quick hits, there is a definite needs for it, so I am not saying that any of the existing sites or resources should go away.
I am simply suggesting that nice manuals (ones that people who have used the product extensively, ones that do a wonderful job showing you how to do things, ones that have embedded tips exactly where they are relevant, ones that have nice crisp illustrations and pictures and not last or meant to complete the list, ones that you can easily print) are what many people are looking for and even willing to pay for. Its of course better if its free and if i were a master with this product (I probably couldn't be much further from the complete opposite of it) I'd go through the major subjects, capture the screen shots, craft a really nice word document and even offer it out there as free and field and incorporate suggestions from time to time.
I think such manuals written outside the vendors perview and influence are often more genuine and specific about working around product liabilities and issues. Vendors hate to expose and talk about weakenss's in products because in somewhat implies they are bugs and should be fixed and in genuine much disconent revolves around such issues.
I am going to withdraw my own offer to create the simple web page with a nice list of subjects and the associated PDFs that cover them, simply because I could never do it justice.
I think if someone takes that on though, they'll be offering one of the most valuable trainz resources available.
I hope that the simplicity of this is not last in the quest for the ultimate tools as its really the substance we need and no tool can really accomplish that, they are merely delivery mechanisms and by in large greatly in the way of a very basic and simple to fuflfill need in my very humble opinion. We should not be slaves to technology and I am learning quickly in life to avoid technology that makes me work for it instead of it working for me.
I often joke with people about how much care and feeding for example, the windows opertating system takes. Really all said and done, its not a very friendly environment and I don't know how much time I have spent during the course of my life caring and feeding it and waiting on it to gets its act together. If one thinks about the time it takes to boot, all the antivirus care it takes, patches it takes, updates, ect, its really quite amazing. That doesn't even begin to address the care it takes getting products to work under it and issues that we expereince. Still regretably for trains, its a necessary evil as it is for other products and so the sum of it all makes it indespenseable more or less. I use a MAC for most personal stuff, regretably windows is where there are more off the cuff packages and I still have to keep windows.
Anyways, the example above goes for Wiki's, Moodles, some FAQs and even these forums, it take a lot of work to get what you need sometimes verses downloading a nice manual and having 90% of it all in one place.
Off the soap box now, I'll leave it to the wise ones here on how you ultimately solve this and I am going to just leave this alone and see if Santa brings us all option 2 above.
Thanks for listening!
E
I still think that we have two paradigms here we are trying to satisfy.
1.> The Online ever green resource with or without collaboration.
2.> The static manual people can grab and use offline
Much of this discussion focuses on one but does not offer much for two.
Sometimes technology can consume us rather than help us and thzats often how I feel about Online based content. Its great for quick hits, there is a definite needs for it, so I am not saying that any of the existing sites or resources should go away.
I am simply suggesting that nice manuals (ones that people who have used the product extensively, ones that do a wonderful job showing you how to do things, ones that have embedded tips exactly where they are relevant, ones that have nice crisp illustrations and pictures and not last or meant to complete the list, ones that you can easily print) are what many people are looking for and even willing to pay for. Its of course better if its free and if i were a master with this product (I probably couldn't be much further from the complete opposite of it) I'd go through the major subjects, capture the screen shots, craft a really nice word document and even offer it out there as free and field and incorporate suggestions from time to time.
I think such manuals written outside the vendors perview and influence are often more genuine and specific about working around product liabilities and issues. Vendors hate to expose and talk about weakenss's in products because in somewhat implies they are bugs and should be fixed and in genuine much disconent revolves around such issues.
I am going to withdraw my own offer to create the simple web page with a nice list of subjects and the associated PDFs that cover them, simply because I could never do it justice.
I think if someone takes that on though, they'll be offering one of the most valuable trainz resources available.
I hope that the simplicity of this is not last in the quest for the ultimate tools as its really the substance we need and no tool can really accomplish that, they are merely delivery mechanisms and by in large greatly in the way of a very basic and simple to fuflfill need in my very humble opinion. We should not be slaves to technology and I am learning quickly in life to avoid technology that makes me work for it instead of it working for me.
I often joke with people about how much care and feeding for example, the windows opertating system takes. Really all said and done, its not a very friendly environment and I don't know how much time I have spent during the course of my life caring and feeding it and waiting on it to gets its act together. If one thinks about the time it takes to boot, all the antivirus care it takes, patches it takes, updates, ect, its really quite amazing. That doesn't even begin to address the care it takes getting products to work under it and issues that we expereince. Still regretably for trains, its a necessary evil as it is for other products and so the sum of it all makes it indespenseable more or less. I use a MAC for most personal stuff, regretably windows is where there are more off the cuff packages and I still have to keep windows.
Anyways, the example above goes for Wiki's, Moodles, some FAQs and even these forums, it take a lot of work to get what you need sometimes verses downloading a nice manual and having 90% of it all in one place.
Off the soap box now, I'll leave it to the wise ones here on how you ultimately solve this and I am going to just leave this alone and see if Santa brings us all option 2 above.
Thanks for listening!
E
There is already is a 300 plus page manual available, and it isn't all that bad. The simple Surveyor tutorial for example does help newbies grasp a heap of information in a very enjoyable way in a very short time.
The vets here are also talking about a manual, but not you fancy "how to" book with step-by-step screenshots. They're looking a a subject that has most content creators stuffed - how to create content. This in itself will bloom into a 500 plus page document even without too many photos.
Having written hundreds, maybe thousands of tutorials in my life, I'm fully aware that they don't just "happen". My double slip tutorial probably took the best part of three nights to develop and write. As a person who does these things for nothing, none of us want to be tied down with a list of 500 tutorials to write before we go to bed.
You may have noticed that very few people have responded to this thread despite it being popular. That's because most Trainzers are on these forums for what they can get, not what they can give. I'm no different. I belong to several forums and only frequent them when I want something. If that's a crime, then I'm a criminal.
You will find that when some kind of Q&A site happens, unless it's totally controlled, the people who visit will ask the same questions over and over again. That's why I suggest a very controlled environment where the volunteers create a very long list of questions and then let people answer them. I realise that's totally back to front, but it would fall over in a heap any other way. If people want to create fancy tutorials like the ones I do on my site, so be be it. They can submit them as answers in the appropriate place.
Most of my tutorials are created as I learn something for the very first time. I find it a great way to re-enforce something in my brain, but others can also benefit from it. I use Irfanview to do the screenshots and reduce them, a program called WYSIWYG Web Builder to design the web page and Corel Draw to do any graphics. If it's a PDF tutorial, I use Corel Draw and IrfanView, but a free program called Serif Page Plus is perfectly adequate.
So, as you set about learning something new in Trainz, why not man yourself with those programs? I can give you a free but older version of Web BUilder that's quite adequate. You'll quickly discover how time consuming it is, but it's also enjoyable. Maybe yours will be the first new tutorial the Trainz Resources Directory has seen in a very long time.
I'm about to branch out on a completely new adventure which to me is ten times more exciting that Trainz. I'm just waiting for my new URL to be signed over and I'm away. I wan't be deserting the TRD or Trainz, in fact you'll see another post in these forums tonight where I'll be asking for volunteers to help me keep it running. If they supply the material, I can throw together a dozen listings in an hour compared to one or two an hour at present.
The same goes with tutorials. Supply me with the raw screenshots and the text, and I'll polish and shine your tutorial for you overnight, not in the usual 3 or 4 days.
Don't lose faith. There's more happening here than meets the eye. Although your thread may have wandered sideways a little, you have given a few people a possible solution to a previously vexing problem. This may well be the biggest thing that's happened to Trainz since 2001 and I'm offering as much support as possible.
Unfortunately for the newbies manual part of the equation, we have to stay focused, but all the bits will eventually drop together one by one.
The vets here are also talking about a manual, but not you fancy "how to" book with step-by-step screenshots. They're looking a a subject that has most content creators stuffed - how to create content. This in itself will bloom into a 500 plus page document even without too many photos.
Having written hundreds, maybe thousands of tutorials in my life, I'm fully aware that they don't just "happen". My double slip tutorial probably took the best part of three nights to develop and write. As a person who does these things for nothing, none of us want to be tied down with a list of 500 tutorials to write before we go to bed.
You may have noticed that very few people have responded to this thread despite it being popular. That's because most Trainzers are on these forums for what they can get, not what they can give. I'm no different. I belong to several forums and only frequent them when I want something. If that's a crime, then I'm a criminal.
You will find that when some kind of Q&A site happens, unless it's totally controlled, the people who visit will ask the same questions over and over again. That's why I suggest a very controlled environment where the volunteers create a very long list of questions and then let people answer them. I realise that's totally back to front, but it would fall over in a heap any other way. If people want to create fancy tutorials like the ones I do on my site, so be be it. They can submit them as answers in the appropriate place.
Most of my tutorials are created as I learn something for the very first time. I find it a great way to re-enforce something in my brain, but others can also benefit from it. I use Irfanview to do the screenshots and reduce them, a program called WYSIWYG Web Builder to design the web page and Corel Draw to do any graphics. If it's a PDF tutorial, I use Corel Draw and IrfanView, but a free program called Serif Page Plus is perfectly adequate.
So, as you set about learning something new in Trainz, why not man yourself with those programs? I can give you a free but older version of Web BUilder that's quite adequate. You'll quickly discover how time consuming it is, but it's also enjoyable. Maybe yours will be the first new tutorial the Trainz Resources Directory has seen in a very long time.
I'm about to branch out on a completely new adventure which to me is ten times more exciting that Trainz. I'm just waiting for my new URL to be signed over and I'm away. I wan't be deserting the TRD or Trainz, in fact you'll see another post in these forums tonight where I'll be asking for volunteers to help me keep it running. If they supply the material, I can throw together a dozen listings in an hour compared to one or two an hour at present.
The same goes with tutorials. Supply me with the raw screenshots and the text, and I'll polish and shine your tutorial for you overnight, not in the usual 3 or 4 days.
Don't lose faith. There's more happening here than meets the eye. Although your thread may have wandered sideways a little, you have given a few people a possible solution to a previously vexing problem. This may well be the biggest thing that's happened to Trainz since 2001 and I'm offering as much support as possible.
Unfortunately for the newbies manual part of the equation, we have to stay focused, but all the bits will eventually drop together one by one.
Deleted by me.http://www.desktopauthor.com/
Last edited:
novastorm2000
Member
Many thanks to all!
I wanted to thank all for participating in this and hope nobodys feathers got ruffled in it all!
I guess I will go on record in showing some frustration that a product like trainz doesn't have a comprehensive updated manual published with its release. it surely would not have been all that hard for Auran to update the manual for the 2010 release.
I saw a post for a short while today advertising 2009, apprently someone resurfaced a very old post - Sourdough I think and I read that announcement and was wowed and wondered how all that was said verses what we have today came to pass. There must be much history and I am guessing Auran ran into some sort fo financial difficult or something and perhaps that is why we are where we are today with manuals and resources.
Anyways, the thread helped surface a lot of good info and ideas and I hope longer term good comes from it.
Thanks again and happy Railroading!
E
I wanted to thank all for participating in this and hope nobodys feathers got ruffled in it all!
I guess I will go on record in showing some frustration that a product like trainz doesn't have a comprehensive updated manual published with its release. it surely would not have been all that hard for Auran to update the manual for the 2010 release.
I saw a post for a short while today advertising 2009, apprently someone resurfaced a very old post - Sourdough I think and I read that announcement and was wowed and wondered how all that was said verses what we have today came to pass. There must be much history and I am guessing Auran ran into some sort fo financial difficult or something and perhaps that is why we are where we are today with manuals and resources.
Anyways, the thread helped surface a lot of good info and ideas and I hope longer term good comes from it.
Thanks again and happy Railroading!
E
johnwhelan
Well-known member
Documentation for a complex product like Trainz is difficult, its been around for ten years now so the reasons for somethings are lost in the mists of time. Auran isn't a large company and in any software project documentation is usually the thing that has the least priority.
Cheerio John
Just a bit. See here. - John