Polycount horror

[Dinorius_Redundicus]

Yeah, that's my theory. The mathematics are way too arcane to go into here, but it's only the vertices that evaporate into gamma rays. The heat evolved is what welds the edges together as your virtual texture. If the mesh is sufficiently high-poly, you can reach a condition known as "gamma maximum" (or "gmax" for short) in which you have a 99% chance of being rendered - sterile. Blender can't do this of course, it just makes you a nice chocolate milkshake.

Paulsw, sorry, we are de-railing this serious thread. I didn't think I was a particularly low-poly creator, there are many others out there, including yourself, who are much stricter than I. By the same token, it's not always just Sketch-up models that are poly-bloated. I can think of a certain creator of signals who really goes overboard on poly-details and I think he uses Max or gmax. At least with those programs, it's a matter of choice or deliberate slackness that will give a high-poly result, but Sketch-up seems to assume you want high-poly and God help you if you want to do anything else.

 

[sparky15]

It was just last night I woke up in abject terror covered in a cold sweat thinking I may have downloaded an unnecessarily high poly count item from the DLS for my choo choo video game. Luckily I talked myself down in time to prevent a panic attack.
Can you imagine the horror I felt for a second or two?

 

[ray_whiley]

every item uploaded to the DLS should have a poly count attached

I agree - and I do sometimes remember to put the poly count in the description. For example, ny recent UK 'Antiques Shop' shows 246 polys in the description. This is about average for one of my 'background' style buildings. Those with a higher level of detail, for closer viewing, come to about 332. But I see that with my latest uploads I forgot to add the poly count - they will be about the same.

Ray

 

[matruck]

It was just last night I woke up in abject terror covered in a cold sweat thinking I may have downloaded an unnecessarily high poly count item from the DLS for my choo choo video game. Luckily I talked myself down in time to prevent a panic attack.
Can you imagine the horror I felt for a second or two?

+2 Sparky and i'm glad that you were able to divert a panic attack.
Cheers Mick.

 

[Paulsw2]

Fortunately I'm taking tablets so my poly panic attacks are now under control. I find that breathing exercises when using the Download Station also helps.

Actually, as I've said on another thread, I have nothing at all against creators uploading very high poly assets - that's their right as creators. However, I think there is an issue about keeping people informed so that if they download an asset they have some sense of what it might do to their PC and game. There's also the position of users who know very little if anything about polys and potential impact on their installation of the game, even on a high end PC.

On these forums, users are asked to offer a warning if they upload high resolution/large format screenshots as not everyone has fast broadband. I think the same principle should apply to the DLS if creators upload high poly/large texture assets.

Those light poles could be less than 1000 polys with one or maybe two textures (and not very large ones either) and from a camera position few metres away they would look exactly the same. And if Deane (Dinorius_Redundicus) made them they would look better....!

This could be an interesting challenge. Taking Ex LMS Gas Lamp 2, kuid2:446443:21023:1, as shown on the left in the picture at the top of the thread - could any creator make something as good looking as this, but for 1,000 or less polys (or perhpas using LOD)? I really like this gaslamp, though obviously not with 21k polys! So, anyone up for the challenge?

Paul

 

[Dermmy]

~snip~ On these forums, users are asked to offer a warning if they upload high resolution/large format screenshots as not everyone has fast broadband. I think the same principle should apply to the DLS if creators upload high poly/large texture assets. ~snip~

Excellent point Paul!

 

[Euphod]

Fortunately I'm taking tablets so my poly panic attacks are now under control. (snip) On these forums, users are asked to offer a warning if they upload high resolution/large format screenshots as not everyone has fast broadband. I think the same principle should apply to the DLS if creators upload high poly/large texture assets.

Yeah, me too, but now I'm having panic attacks when I forget to bring along my tablets to treat the panic attacks!

You suggestion about the uploaded high poly content is a good one, but I note that most people manage to ignore the suggestion when posting, and many ignore the COC entirely, so I wouldn't expect a new requirement to be regarded with respect either!

 

[sparky15]

People using 500 MB of content to create a route could never be a problem, could it.

 

[matruck]

There's also the position of users who know very little if anything about polys and potential impact on their installation of the game, even on a high end PC.

I think this is the last thing new user's worry about first they have to get the game installed patched then re patched cause the first few didn't work or stuffed the game completely so a re-install is in order.
Then they will have to find the particular content there after then install all that only to find there's part's missing or it isn't even for the version they bought so yeah i doubt most will be too worried about downloading high poly content for a bit and when they do work out how to download what they want only to find it's too high poly i'm sure most will just delete it and move on with life. The DLS is half full of other useless crap anyway but when someone doe's have a go at making sum thing for a game they might actually enjoy you ladies want to hang the dude and start changing the rule's to suite your self's.
Cheers Mick.

 

[Deano5]

These kind of assets should come with a government health warning, "WARNING. THESE ASSETS CAN CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY TO YOUR COMPUTER".

 

[oknotsen]

People using 500 MB of content to create a route could never be a problem, could it.

I can see the misunderstanding.
This whole poly issue is on a per item basis or on a per baseboard / length of visibility.

In other words:
Your 500mb route can have a problem, but nobody can tell by just knowing that single fact. Sure, it will take some time to load, but who cares. This whole discussion has nothing (or very less) to do with the whole initial load of a route, but the high ammount of poly's in a small area. If you dont have that (which I currently have no clue to how to figure that out for any route), your route will run without stutering. But if, for example, you are going to bunch up a few items with a high poly count in a small area, the ride will turn into a slide show.

Hope that clears things up a tiny bit for you.

 

[stovepipe]

I think this is the last thing new user's worry about first they have to get the game installed patched then re patched cause the first few didn't work or stuffed the game completely so a re-install is in order.
Then they will have to find the particular content there after then install all that only to find there's part's missing or it isn't even for the version they bought so yeah i doubt most will be too worried about downloading high poly content for a bit and when they do work out how to download what they want only to find it's too high poly i'm sure most will just delete it and move on with life. The DLS is half full of other useless crap anyway but when someone doe's have a go at making sum thing for a game they might actually enjoy you ladies want to hang the dude and start changing the rule's to suite your self's.
Cheers Mick.

No need to get your knickers in a twist .

Until these threads came along, I don't suppose most people were aware there was such high poly content being created. I know I wasn't - it's not something I normally check when downloaded a route.

 

[matruck]

I don't have them in a twist the op who started the thread and every one who agreed with him doe's, I'm just don't think it's fair to tarnish a creator or the method he/she use's to bring content into the game if you don't like the content don't use it fairly simple to me but obviously not so to other's.
Cheers' Mick.

 

[oknotsen]

I'm just don't think it's fair to tarnish a creator or the method he/she use's to bring content into the game if you don't like the content don't use it fairly simple to me but obviously not so to other's.

I think it is slightly more complicated then that.

A lot of people have no clue about this "high poly count" issue. As a result, a lot of people will just download and use the items unknowingly and then complain and moan about their game not performing.
On the other side there are the content creators who can be made aware of these issue's and adjust their items accordingly. In other words: Prevent those problems resulting from a lack of understanding.

Know that a lot of items with high poly count (not all) can be made with a lot less poly's without any visuel differences! It is just a mather of getting the content creator to understand how. Know that not only those end-users with low end PC's benefit from this; it is also (for example) the creator who spends less time waiting between renders.

In the long run, everyone will benefit from items with lower poly count; the game on average will run beter, so less people complain so more people will play or buy it which results in more potential content creators and more funding for game development.

A lot of people fail to see the influences in the long run / bigger picture. Lets make them aware and understand that so in the long run we will all benefit from that in one way or another .

 

[stovepipe]

I don't have them in a twist the op who started the thread and every one who agreed with him doe's, I'm just don't think it's fair to tarnish a creator or the method he/she use's to bring content into the game if you don't like the content don't use it fairly simple to me but obviously not so to other's.
Cheers' Mick.

Yeah fairly simple if you know high poly scenery objects like this exists in the first place - which people didn't until this thread was started..............

Also the issue is whether other people use this content without realising in their routes, which I then download and don't work very well. I am supposed to go through the dependencies one-by-one and then just delete/replace the content? Seems like a lot of work for me and everyone else who downloads the item. Why didn't the creator/exporter just tell me that to start with?

I'm not interested in tarnishing creators/content exporters - I just want decent routes that run properly. Now that really would be simple.

 

[RRSignal]

Another consequence of this problem - people will blame the game and/or N3V and stop playing, or think they have to upgrade their machines. These are real problems that can cost people money without awareness and diligence. Once again, I support the use of Sketchup and am ok with 3DWH in some cases, but it's important people know why their game might run like molasses.

 

[BLACKWATCH]

Also the issue is whether other people use this content without realising in their routes, which I then download and don't work very well. I am supposed to go through the dependencies one-by-one and then just delete/replace the content? Seems like a lot of work for me and everyone else who downloads the item.

Well said Stovepipe, if the 'Sketchup' users would be brave enough to declare where they made their content, route builders can be aware & avoid using it.
Once it becomes obvious (by the lack of use) that these products are not wanted, these creators using 'Sketchup', might "buck up" their ideas & start using the facilities available, to reduce the impact of their follies.

 

[Paulsw2]

I don't have them in a twist the op who started the thread and every one who agreed with him doe's...

Can I just clarify that my knickers are absolutely untwisted and in perfect working order as I sit here at this PC typing this reply?

As I've said several time before, I have no problem at all with creators uploading high poly items. I'd just like them to provide full information to fellow Trainz users who are thinking of downloading their creations. Is it really a big ask for them to post the number of polys associated with their mesh? People can then make an informed decision as to whether to download and place the asset on their layout.

You suggestion about the uploaded high poly content is a good one, but I note that most people manage to ignore the suggestion when posting, and many ignore the COC entirely, so I wouldn't expect a new requirement to be regarded with respect either!

:hehe: Sadly, there's no legislating for human nature! Though I believe the DLS can be quite strict with uploads?

Paul

 

[Euphod]

Though I believe the DLS can be quite strict with uploads?

I suppose if it's some type of automated process it may work, as long as the human element is not present. The COC is quite clear as to penalties and such, but someone has to have the moxie to enforce them!