One step forward? Not the Trainz interface.

[ecco]

Sometimes I want to see all the assets of a certain type, for example - Buffers
In Trainz 2010 I could click the little funnel on the top toolbar. That would pop up a search box. The cursor was right in the box so I could start typing "buffer".
In T:ANE I could click the little funnel on the top toolbar. That would pop up a search box. But now the cursor was nowhere. I had to click in the search box, then I could start typing "buffer".
In T19 (105096) the funnel is gone! Now I have to click the brand new Display Menu; that brings up sub menu items including "Show Search Filter". When I click Show Search Filter, the search filter pops up. But again (still) the cursor does not start in the text entry box. So, I have to click in the search box, then I can start typing "buffer".

Sure I can use Ctrl Shift F but I still have to place the cursor before I can start typing "buff..."


Quick Drive also had it's own icon on the top toolbar. Now it's part of the new drop down menus.


Back in the days of T-19 Beta testing (and probably since the advent of T:ANE) there was a lot of discussion about Layers. The discussions were about the confusing aspect of layers and Routes and Sessions. Everyone had a different way of using them, but everyone agreed that it would be VERY helpful to see at a glance what aspect and what layer one was working in. The general recommendation was that the top toolbar should show:
Editing Session sessionname; Layer Landscape
Editing Route; Layer Interactive Buildings

Did we get that? No. Instead N3V/Trainz/Tony thought it would be worthwhile to add more steps to functions that are used constantly.


Another example I just came across. The Baltimore Route is huge. I decided it was too huge for my system so I went about deleting portions of the Western half.
Click the Topology Icon
Click Delete ground Icon
Click the baseboard I want to delete
Get a popup warning me that the deletion cannot be undone. The same popup gave me the option to not get the popup in the future. So, click baseboard, click baseboard, click baseboard.

Now, with the latest greatest 105096 update, I get the popup for every baseboard I want to delete - there is no longer an option to skip the warning popup.

Now it takes twice as many clicks. No big deal? Well, yeah, it is when you are deleting hundreds of baseboards from a massive map.

Question for n3v et al, were there tons of requests from users asking for that change? I doubt it.

Yet we still cannot readily see what layer we are working in.

Before

 

[Dinorius_Redundicus]

You are not wrong. Very little thought has gone into making repetitive tasks efficient.

Another example; I recently created a set of 51 assets that I wanted to store as individual CDP files (not all into one CDP archive). To process one asset, Trainz forces you to highlight it with 1 click, then click 2 menu items, then 3 pop-up windows or dialog boxes to create the CDP, clear all pop-ups and finally be ready to process the next asset. That made a total of 306 point-and-click operations. If I didn’t bother to clear each pop-up, I would have ended up with 102 of them cluttering up my screen.

Would have been so nice to simply highlight the batch once, right-click and choose to “export to separate CDP files” but no, this is Trainz.

 

[philskene]

I've gone back to pre-SP1. I find the lack of the editing shortcut keys (in both Surveyor and when making sessions) in SP1 far too annoying, frustrating, ... .

 

[grazlash]

I really like SP1, (honestly) but moving Shift+mousewheel for zooming FOV to the settings menu kind of kills the mood when screenshotting. Another thing I have noticed is the blurriness of textures on 10m DEM maps and the lack of height you can work from. Laying roads was once easy, now it's far more difficult and fencelines get lost in the lack of detail
Most of the other niggles I can work around and adapt the way I work.
With all this menu hiding and killing mousewheel items, anyone would think that N3V is trying to integrate Mac versions into the PC version by stealth.
cheers
Graeme
(Tin hat firmly in place)

 

[Vern]

No tin hat needed. I am firmly with those who feel N3V should roll back the interface, or at least allow the option, to use the classic version.

As I mentioned in other threads where this came up, the problem of physically working in an older version is that many assets, particularly from DLC, may be updated and won't show or function except in SP1.

 

[euromodeller]

Release 105096
Unless N3V reverse the removal of the icons from the toolbar then (for practical reasons) I will be making layouts only in TANE.
I am now 69 years old and left handed, using keystrokes instead of point and click is very difficult.
Menu drop downs, too many, and trying to remember what tool is in which is a nuisance.
Keystrokes, to use keystrokes I would need to remove my hand from the mouse, peer at the keyboard to focus on the keys (I don't do touch typing, I am a 2 finger typist) and then use the keystrokes, if I can remember what they are for each function, whereas pont and click is visual and fast.
The argument about tool bar real estate is poor, what will be put in there that is going to take up thousands of pixels? Certainy not layer info, that's been asked for for years and nothing happened. Also saying it should be reserved for future use, I can't build layouts in the future, I can only do that now

So in conclusion

The new SP1 UI is...

Ageist
Leftist (left handers)
Not disabled friendly.

Please bring back our icons.

Keystroke fans can still use the keystrokes and the icon users can use the icons.

 

[pcas1986]

Hmmm. Sounds a bit like the Blender community who are constantly griping about the user interface. Reading through the posts I thought "well I don't do that so it doesn't bother me". I quickly found that Ctrl Shift F brings up the filter which I use a lot, Ctrl F2 kicks off a session like Quickdrive and Ctrl F1 stops it (I think). So, for the most part, I don't have a problem with it.

Getting back to Blender, 2.80/81 dropped Blender Render which was the way we exported IM files and so we are stuck with FBX whether we like it or not. Stuff I have used for years has moved to different menus or has been replaced by something else. But, despite all that, the improvements far outweigh the UI inconvenience so, on balance, I've accepted it.

Every major Trainz update brings forth the complaints and it wouldn't be the same without it. Frankly, I don't know if the UI was tested by the Beta Test Crew but I had the opportunity to participate and I didn't - mostly because I was too busy with other stuff.

What I would like to see is the opportunity to select a CM filter you want to overwrite rather than trying to guess what you called a similar filter before.

 

[ecco]

Frankly, I don't know if the UI was tested by the Beta Test Crew but I had the opportunity to participate and I didn't - mostly because I was too busy with other stuff.

I did participate in the TR19 Beta, especially from the standpoint of user interface. Many of the ideas and examples I submitted were based on comments from other users. Included:
Bigger/Resizable fonts and thumbnails in the Item Dropdowns (objects, tracks etc)
Ability to move Item DropDowns to a second screen
More intuitive Save and Save As dialog
Function and Layer names in top toolbar
Also a slew of little things like:
The cursor automatically going to text entry screens
A Snap to North keyfunction and a Compass in map view

Instead we still have eye squinting dialog boxes and more menus and fewer shortcut icons and the requirement for more keystrokes for repetitive tasks and we still don't know what layer we are editing.

 

[KotangaGirl]

Today was a good day for me so I spent several hours working on my Norfolk route in TS2012. Not surprisingly I found myself thinking why can't TS2019 be like this. In TS2012 I have icons on the menu bar so it only takes a moment to click them and in addition to that I can actually see the menus when I need to access a menu and read them without squinting. Ages ago now when TS2019 came out Tony wouldn't believe me when i said that the TS2012 surveyor was easier to use than the one in TS2019. 'If you had my disability you'd agree with me,' is what I told him back then and it was just the horrible menu text, black menu boxes and a not particularly intuitive clunky workflow that was the problem then.

I know the keyboard shortcut versus icons debate is still raging, but for me keyboard shortcuts are no good. Due to narcolepsy I get micro pauses where my brain just sort of stops for a moment so it's very normal for me to stare at my keyboard for a second or two or three before I can find the keys I want. And on top of that I'm supposed to remember the key codes for each action I want to take.
Graham (Euromodeller) stated it perfectly when he wrote that SP1 is 'Not disabled friendly'. Because it's a complete pain for me to try and do anything in surveyor. At least I still have TANE and that still works Ok.

 

[gt350]

It is quite apparent that this new menu layout was not thought out. I ended up programing the key stroke to my keyboard so they are only one click but not all menu items are available from the keyboard. Next time I wish they would make all menu item available from the keyboard like photoshop etc

 

[Vern]

A simple example of how crap and awkward the new interface is occurred just now...

As happens occasionally extruding a new spline section generated an unwanted junction. Hitting Escape to cancel the action was causing issues a while ago with other spline sections vanishing elsewhere in the route, so I won't use that. Not sure if this was ever logged or acknowledged as a bug by N3V but anyway the simplest and quickest solution was to lay the spline and whip the mouse cursor up to the Undo icon, one click and the action was undone. Now I have to either call up Undo from the menu bar if I can remember where it was, or wriggle my left hand onto Ctrl-Z. It's not intuitive and frankly a right PITA.

 

[clam1952]

Wondering if a mouse with additional programmable mouse buttons might be an answer. Program the undo and search shortcuts to it. might just try one of these https://www.amazon.co.uk/product-re...dpproductdetail_text?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

Escape is working without any side effects here in 105100 the Plus version.

As is getting rid of the warning message for deleting boards in 105100, just added a few boards and deleted them to check just in case it's a problem in plus as well, apparently not leastwise not here.

I use F8 for the search Window, easier to remember than a two handed keyboard shortcut.

The Blender comparison is spot on, trying to learn the blasted thing when they keep changing it is very frustrating.

 

[wreeder]

I use a Logitech mouse with programmable buttons and I love it. The Gaming Software you use to program the buttons is simple to understand and use.

William

 

[KotangaGirl]

I have a Logitech G302 gaming mouse which I purchased when my faithful old Logitech cordless mouse died and it really is a delight to use. I haven't looked at trying to program any of the buttons yet, but perhaps I should. My only concern would be when I fall asleep suddenly I'm likely to randomly push buttons and I might wake up to a real mess on my screen.

 

[Vern]

Shouldn't have to invest in specialised hardware to compensate for a developer's insistence on an inferior interface, though.

 

[euromodeller]

Try buying a decent mouse for left handed use, I have spent hundreds of pounds over the years on mice, even so-called left handed/ambidextrous ones have the thumb-buttons on the left, result, I either press a button inadevertantly or have to take my hand off the mouse to operate them.
Mouse manufacturers seem to think that left handers have their thumbs on the left of their hand!

I have at the moment an ASUS Tuf M5 mouse that has the DPI button on the top, just behind the scroll wheel, it's a bit on the small size, but is a delight to use.

 

[KotangaGirl]

Yes I do agree with you Vern. My main reason for purchasing the Logitech gaming mouse was its accuracy and precision when doing texture work, but having to buy some pricey hardware like that just to overcome an inferior user interface; - well yeah, - there's something wrong there.

 

[pware]

It is interesting to read all these views. I have posted in other threads on this issue that the missing Undo/Redo buttons do not bother me (but I would not seriously object to their return) and that I like the new menus so I guess this makes me a lone voice here.

As any customer satisfaction survey designer will tell you, those who have an axe to grind are the most likely to respond while those who are happy or at best disinterested, are the least likely to respond. At the time that I wrote this there were 288 views of this thread and 16 posts (three people had posted more than once) so that makes a very rough estimate of 5% of those who viewed this thread who were dissatisfied enough to post.

Ecco, who started this thread, produced an interesting list of needed features in post #8:-

Bigger/Resizable fonts and thumbnails in the Item Dropdowns (objects, tracks etc)
Ability to move Item DropDowns to a second screen
More intuitive Save and Save As dialog
Function and Layer names in top toolbar
Also a slew of little things like:
The cursor automatically going to text entry screens
A Snap to North keyfunction and a Compass in map view

All of these I would support along with a very long list of other much requested "game play" improvements not the least of which would be a better AI.

Someone here posted quite recently a link to a list of N3V personnel and the various jobs they do. I was interested to see that there appears to be only two (2) programmers on the N3V staff - whether they are full time only or if others were employed on an as-needed casual basis I do not know. But for the list of "must have now" or "should have been implemented yonks ago" and "bring them back now" features listed here and in other threads over the years, two programmers seems woefully inadequate. It seems obvious to me that N3V have two main choices:-

1. employ many more staff (not just programmers) to bring all these vital features on line as soon as possible, or
2. continue to allocate priorities and resources using existing staff as efficiently as possible.

The first choice would see an enormous increase in costs which would be passed onto the consumers (us) which will inevitably lead to more angry posts. The second choice would keep the prices as low as possible but would delay (even permanently) some users "must have" features, with more angry posts.

Perhaps a better use of this thread would be to come up with practical ways that N3V could afford to keep the majority (not just the 5% who complain) of its customers happy.

My opinions only and all flak is welcome.

 

[KotangaGirl]

In her professional life my daughter was a programmer/software troubleshooter so I'm very much aware how much effort and time is involved in writing good code. My daughter is presently writing the code for a disability related android application and seeing the thousands of lines of code she has meticulously written on her computer screen makes it very plain it's not just as few taps on the keys on a keyboard like they show in the movies.

I really don't expect N3V to rush out a patch tomorrow to change things back as they were. In the real world things like that don't happen not with all the other tasks on their 'To-Do' list N3V are trying to get done; - and certainly not with just two programmers on their staff. I'm just disappointed that something that was more or less working well was changed at all. Does that make me a 5% complainer? - I suppose it does, - but my concerns are very real and even if nothing is done I think I have a right to say my piece even if it might be unwelcome.

 

[pware]

... and your post is most welcome, KotangaGirl, as it should be regardless of how many people are negative or positive. I get concerned about negative posts without any balancing posts because almost invariably someone will post a message like "everyone is complaining about this so they (N3V) have to drop everything else right now and fix it or else I will <insert some meaningless threat here>".

One thing that is constant in these forums is that every time N3V does something new or different, even if it is at the request of users (e.g. the "Pause" function in Plus/Platinum Surveyor), it will always generate negative posts. The introduction of Sessions in TRS2006 (or was it 2004???) generated many such complaints but who would be without them today?