goodell911
http://www.gaurc.us
Yes, there are... but none of them have Google satellite imagery applied to them.
New technology DEM maps?
- Thread starter goodell911
- Start date
Yes, there are... but none of them have Google satellite imagery applied to them.
goodell911
http://www.gaurc.us
I regret to report that GeoPhil, author of TransDEM, has decided that he doesn't want us to use his program to create these maps.
He says that we would be somehow violating his license agreement, even though our original plan called for the maps to be freeware and we would certainly fall under the category of 'small-scale' operations.
So, we can all thank GeoPhil for creating such a wonderful program for the Trainz community... and then not allowing us to use it for the benefit of the community. (Quite selfish, if you ask me.)
We are exploring other options for creating these maps that do not use TransDEM, and have every intention of moving forward with the project.
We will keep the Trainz community updated, as progress is made.
He says that we would be somehow violating his license agreement, even though our original plan called for the maps to be freeware and we would certainly fall under the category of 'small-scale' operations.
So, we can all thank GeoPhil for creating such a wonderful program for the Trainz community... and then not allowing us to use it for the benefit of the community. (Quite selfish, if you ask me.)
We are exploring other options for creating these maps that do not use TransDEM, and have every intention of moving forward with the project.
We will keep the Trainz community updated, as progress is made.
About A year or so ago I thought I would learn hog and I think it used microdem and Wewain's tutorial, then import into hog. I wrote a part tutorial I think on the forum............ Where I came unstuck is overlaying as tiger data is only for USA and my routes are mainly maritime UK.......... Also setting it to delete the surplus baseboards which took a while as I couldn't understand how to to delete them and deleted them manually............. Hundreds of them.... To show the coast I surrounded it with water and laid a texture to outline line it so any program FREEWARE would be useful...... With payware I don't use paypal or credit/debit cards online and don't intend to yet....................... http://freepages.misc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wewain/trainz/homepage.htm Barry
Further to my previous post re Hog and Microdem.
IF ANYBODY KNOW HOW TO DELETE SURPLUS BASEBOARDS IN HOG PLEASE POST.
I need UK dat so Tiger Data is only UK.
The part tutorial I found on my computer and probably had it on my site but completerly forgotten how to use Hog so may go through it again.
I think it was the Isle of Man I made last time but a huge size file.
----------------------------------
Not checked and there may be spelling mistakes so simply copy and paste.
As always use at own risk as mainly just a guide for myself.
27 Nov 2007
Tutorial for generating
I am only finding these details out myself, and as with all the tutorials and details on my site try entirely at your own risk as regards, loss of information or computer or program "crashing", etc. However works OK on my own computer which is now using Vista.
Making satellite dem. maps for trainz using hog by Adam Wojcieszyk, and Microdem.
This tutorial just explains the main points which generates the satellite data as tiles in the Trainz program. You can texture within the generator program or make overlays but I have not covered this in the tutorial. To show up in the mini map in Trainz I ran a water texture around the whole island and once I put a seabed texture over it all the outline of the island was then visible.
Microdem is an excellent program for manipulating dem data and Hog allows the tiles from the dem map to be automatically created in Trainz, creating miles of realistic terrain automatically.
Hog was specially made to create the tiles in trainz from the dem data.
Best just to do a search on Internet to download the programs.
For Hog enter.... Hog Trainz or similar into your search, also available from Trainz Luvr website at time of writing.
Microdem has a number of sites about it with download links.
As I only just learn't how to use hog and microdem myself I found Wewain's tutorial on his Trainz website very useful.
I am using Trainz 2004 version and do not know how or if it will work in later versions.
But even if it doesn't the Microdem part is very useful for working with satellite dem maps, not trainz related.
First make a blank I tile map in Trainz and give it a single short name and save.
http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/srtm/index.html
This is the site for vrml2 data etc.
I am using srtm2 (2nd version) files and for this short text tutorial tile N54W005 which has the Isle of Man on it.
You can use whatever tiles you choose but we need to keep the size fairly small.
Isle of Man is say 30 to 40 miles which makes a very large tga file.
Open Microdem.. but before starting set Microdem up so more tabs become visible Options then click Regular in the Menus Panel.
File/Open/Open Dem/ All files.. and go to where you saved your hgt file of your choice and open it. At the top of the window with the coloured map of the file you opened click the dotted square and draw a box around the Isle Of Man starting top left. Try and keep the square close to the area you want. The program will then automatically crop it. Before we start we could remove the clutter from the image as we will need to save it at the end as a tga file. Modify/Grid/then tick Neither. Also Map Marginalia/then take the ticks out of the boxes.
Also we need the Map as UTM so File/Save Dem/Reinterpolate UTM. Then we need to set the pixel size.
Next Modify/Map Area/Set Map Pixel Size. Copy this value. then Modify/Map Area/Zoom in. (Zoom in is a box to enter our value in). Paste the value in then move the point one place to the left and delete the orignal decimal point so we have divide it by ten. Mine is 86.56011894 which becomes divided by ten. 8.656011894. click OK and new map is generated with different colours. My map size is 69 megs. I think, and panel warns will load slowly, etc. Best to keep the size as low as possible.
If you go to "Info" tab on top row screen pixel size is 10 metres which is what we want for Hog.
We now need to take a note of the maximum and minumum heights on the map to enter the values into the HOG program so Modify/Elevation/Then click Z range. I think it is now map area range as dem full range is the full hgt file and we are only using the cropped section. This just applies to my map, although I imagine you would need to crop a small section from any hgt file otherwise would be too large for the tga file. You can always check when you first load the map and run the mouse over the highest point on map to get an approximation of the highest height.
Anway my height is 616.485413 and -1.878941. This height in metres is approximately correct for Snaefell which is the higest point on the Isle of Man.
We now save our map as tga and give it a name. Possibly the same name we gave our single tile route we made in trainz but not sure. The gnd. file we make from it to replace our route gnd. file has to be the the same name as the Trainz route. Save it into the Hog Folder/Directory. File/Save Image/Save as type Targa (tga) with single name.
End of Microdem Section
---------------------------------------
Hog Section. When downloading HOG the 5 sections should be opened in sequence so they overwrite each other.
So open Hog. In the Elevation data panel open the tga file you saved from Microdem. This should be in the same folder into which you installed Hog. In the Final output panel click pick, and opposite the file name type the name you gave your trainz route, single name. Make sure set to Trainz Terrain Files gnd. Click open and when it says. Do you want the file creating?, click yes. Then at the bottom click generate gnd file...ooops I forgot to enter our minimum and maximum heights we took a note of. I imagine up to the nearest metre will do, then click generate gnd file. All we do now is replace the gnd file which was made when we made our route with the one we just generated. Must have the same route name as the gnd file we are replacing.
-----------
IF ANYBODY KNOW HOW TO DELETE SURPLUS BASEBOARDS IN HOG PLEASE POST.
I need UK dat so Tiger Data is only UK.
The part tutorial I found on my computer and probably had it on my site but completerly forgotten how to use Hog so may go through it again.
I think it was the Isle of Man I made last time but a huge size file.
----------------------------------
Not checked and there may be spelling mistakes so simply copy and paste.
As always use at own risk as mainly just a guide for myself.
27 Nov 2007
Tutorial for generating
I am only finding these details out myself, and as with all the tutorials and details on my site try entirely at your own risk as regards, loss of information or computer or program "crashing", etc. However works OK on my own computer which is now using Vista.
Making satellite dem. maps for trainz using hog by Adam Wojcieszyk, and Microdem.
This tutorial just explains the main points which generates the satellite data as tiles in the Trainz program. You can texture within the generator program or make overlays but I have not covered this in the tutorial. To show up in the mini map in Trainz I ran a water texture around the whole island and once I put a seabed texture over it all the outline of the island was then visible.
Microdem is an excellent program for manipulating dem data and Hog allows the tiles from the dem map to be automatically created in Trainz, creating miles of realistic terrain automatically.
Hog was specially made to create the tiles in trainz from the dem data.
Best just to do a search on Internet to download the programs.
For Hog enter.... Hog Trainz or similar into your search, also available from Trainz Luvr website at time of writing.
Microdem has a number of sites about it with download links.
As I only just learn't how to use hog and microdem myself I found Wewain's tutorial on his Trainz website very useful.
I am using Trainz 2004 version and do not know how or if it will work in later versions.
But even if it doesn't the Microdem part is very useful for working with satellite dem maps, not trainz related.
First make a blank I tile map in Trainz and give it a single short name and save.
http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/srtm/index.html
This is the site for vrml2 data etc.
I am using srtm2 (2nd version) files and for this short text tutorial tile N54W005 which has the Isle of Man on it.
You can use whatever tiles you choose but we need to keep the size fairly small.
Isle of Man is say 30 to 40 miles which makes a very large tga file.
Open Microdem.. but before starting set Microdem up so more tabs become visible Options then click Regular in the Menus Panel.
File/Open/Open Dem/ All files.. and go to where you saved your hgt file of your choice and open it. At the top of the window with the coloured map of the file you opened click the dotted square and draw a box around the Isle Of Man starting top left. Try and keep the square close to the area you want. The program will then automatically crop it. Before we start we could remove the clutter from the image as we will need to save it at the end as a tga file. Modify/Grid/then tick Neither. Also Map Marginalia/then take the ticks out of the boxes.
Also we need the Map as UTM so File/Save Dem/Reinterpolate UTM. Then we need to set the pixel size.
Next Modify/Map Area/Set Map Pixel Size. Copy this value. then Modify/Map Area/Zoom in. (Zoom in is a box to enter our value in). Paste the value in then move the point one place to the left and delete the orignal decimal point so we have divide it by ten. Mine is 86.56011894 which becomes divided by ten. 8.656011894. click OK and new map is generated with different colours. My map size is 69 megs. I think, and panel warns will load slowly, etc. Best to keep the size as low as possible.
If you go to "Info" tab on top row screen pixel size is 10 metres which is what we want for Hog.
We now need to take a note of the maximum and minumum heights on the map to enter the values into the HOG program so Modify/Elevation/Then click Z range. I think it is now map area range as dem full range is the full hgt file and we are only using the cropped section. This just applies to my map, although I imagine you would need to crop a small section from any hgt file otherwise would be too large for the tga file. You can always check when you first load the map and run the mouse over the highest point on map to get an approximation of the highest height.
Anway my height is 616.485413 and -1.878941. This height in metres is approximately correct for Snaefell which is the higest point on the Isle of Man.
We now save our map as tga and give it a name. Possibly the same name we gave our single tile route we made in trainz but not sure. The gnd. file we make from it to replace our route gnd. file has to be the the same name as the Trainz route. Save it into the Hog Folder/Directory. File/Save Image/Save as type Targa (tga) with single name.
End of Microdem Section
---------------------------------------
Hog Section. When downloading HOG the 5 sections should be opened in sequence so they overwrite each other.
So open Hog. In the Elevation data panel open the tga file you saved from Microdem. This should be in the same folder into which you installed Hog. In the Final output panel click pick, and opposite the file name type the name you gave your trainz route, single name. Make sure set to Trainz Terrain Files gnd. Click open and when it says. Do you want the file creating?, click yes. Then at the bottom click generate gnd file...ooops I forgot to enter our minimum and maximum heights we took a note of. I imagine up to the nearest metre will do, then click generate gnd file. All we do now is replace the gnd file which was made when we made our route with the one we just generated. Must have the same route name as the gnd file we are replacing.
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Mr ziegler does not approve the use of the TransDem program in this project.
However i feel we are within the lines he drawed.
I wrote a few PM's with Roland regarding this tread, and he was kind enough to clairify it to me:
The TransDEM user license does not prohibit the distribution of TransDEM generated maps, as long as they are freeware - no commercial involvement. And I do even encourage TransDEM users to help other Trainz users - as long as the amount of routes distributed this way is on a small scale basis.
In the previous posts, i can not see the words "Mass production" or "Payware" even mentioned, so i think we are on solid ground.
However, if Mr Ziegler have any new comments on this subject, we will read them, and then decide what to do.
Its not my intention (yet) to make any trouble out of this, but we are on the right side of the law here...
Both Trainz and Transdem are made for having fun, so lets keep it that way
My 2 cents
Lars
However i feel we are within the lines he drawed.
I wrote a few PM's with Roland regarding this tread, and he was kind enough to clairify it to me:
The TransDEM user license does not prohibit the distribution of TransDEM generated maps, as long as they are freeware - no commercial involvement. And I do even encourage TransDEM users to help other Trainz users - as long as the amount of routes distributed this way is on a small scale basis.
In the previous posts, i can not see the words "Mass production" or "Payware" even mentioned, so i think we are on solid ground.
However, if Mr Ziegler have any new comments on this subject, we will read them, and then decide what to do.
Its not my intention (yet) to make any trouble out of this, but we are on the right side of the law here...
Both Trainz and Transdem are made for having fun, so lets keep it that way
My 2 cents
Lars
nbrettoner
Bret_viS
This is a most interesting & may I say 'timely' thread.
There are probably many route builders who would appreciate the ease of a DEM-generated terrain, with GE (Google Earth) data included.
Personally I think Trainz development is at a crossroads. And so having finally the ability to easily aquire the terrain & satellite imagery data for a given area, in a format easily applied to a route, is very 'timely'.
At present you (as developers of this delivery system) may only make this available for the greater USA regions. However, globally, the desire for such a system would be I think very high. IE a great interest culminating in a huge number of requests for routes world-wide. Are you prepared for this?.
May I suggest that whatever system is finally sort out, that alternatives be made available;
There are probably many route builders who would appreciate the ease of a DEM-generated terrain, with GE (Google Earth) data included.
Personally I think Trainz development is at a crossroads. And so having finally the ability to easily aquire the terrain & satellite imagery data for a given area, in a format easily applied to a route, is very 'timely'.
At present you (as developers of this delivery system) may only make this available for the greater USA regions. However, globally, the desire for such a system would be I think very high. IE a great interest culminating in a huge number of requests for routes world-wide. Are you prepared for this?.
May I suggest that whatever system is finally sort out, that alternatives be made available;
- Trainzers can request an area/route be made up & supplied.
- Trainzers can choose from an assortment of popular routes/regions
- The system itself be made available, together with tutorials & help/forum backup, so that those of us who 'want to get our hands dirty', can do so?.
I think ground texture means the different textures, like Grassy Knoll versus Oil Spill, rather than the 10 meter area covered by a texture. There are about 500 squares on a baseboard, after all.
There are a lot of people who want DEM maps but can't figure out the DEM/HOG programs. These would be a definite bonus.
Claudegoodell911
http://www.gaurc.us
Hi, Sorry to say but i payed for this great programm. So i would,t be glad if it comes for free. So its not selfish. Just buy it and you can use it. Its the same when you buy something and afther some time it comes for free.
Greetz laika:wave:
goodell911
http://www.gaurc.us
We paid for it too; That's not the issue here. The dispute is over what can be done with maps that are produced by the program... even when the terms of the EULA are being honored.
You can see a news article about this [HERE]
I must agree that I think this would be a great idea for the community. I am also glad to see so much support for this idea from everyone. I hope it will work out because accurately modelling terrain is difficult enough. If a google map was somehow included, that'd be a great way to lay down roads and other noteable objects.
I guess I'll keep my fingers crossed for now...
:wave:
Gisa ^^
I guess I'll keep my fingers crossed for now...
:wave:
Gisa ^^
Hi,
Well, still its the same. I dont want to defend Geopfhil so i stay neutral, but in some points i realy can understand him. If you make such premaps for routes with his programm(for free) where does it end? I mean you got tons of users then asking for some data for the maps they want to make. This also means that alot of users dont need to buy this program. So in that point of view i respect the creator of Transdem.
Thats how i see the things. maby i,m missing some points but i realy hope you can clear it out.
Greetz:wave:
Well, still its the same. I dont want to defend Geopfhil so i stay neutral, but in some points i realy can understand him. If you make such premaps for routes with his programm(for free) where does it end? I mean you got tons of users then asking for some data for the maps they want to make. This also means that alot of users dont need to buy this program. So in that point of view i respect the creator of Transdem.
Thats how i see the things. maby i,m missing some points but i realy hope you can clear it out.
Greetz:wave:
goodell911
http://www.gaurc.us
Imagine for a moment that Auran said you could use Surveyor to create all the routes you wanted... you paid for the program, go ahead; just don't share them with anyone, freeware or not.
Or imagine the makers of gMax telling you it is perfectly acceptable to create custom Trainz content, as long as it is only for your personal use.
That's the same theory we are talking about here.
We aren't creating any sort of threat to the TransDEM program, we are doing the same exact thing already done by respected people like fishlipsatwork and others on the DLS... just with an added twist.
Hi, sure you also have a point but i think you forgot one thing. When i want to run a freeware route in TRS then still i need the TRS program. I dont want to interfere but maby when you create such a preroute with the data then speak or ask geopfhil if it is possible that when you want such a route(still freeware) you still need Transdem for running such a route. I,m not a specialist about all these things i just stay neutral. Maby there are other solutions i just dont know.
Greetz:wave:
goodell911
http://www.gaurc.us
You only need TransDEM in order to create the map (it's not a route until someone adds track.) You do not need TransDEM to load the map into Surveyor.
Hi,
Yes i know and in my point of view that is just the problem. Transdem is payware. So thats why i wrote that you need to sit around table to make it possible that you need Transdem for loading up such maps or another solution like an add-on in a TRS version or something else. But its not to me but the creator of Transdem has to decide and has his own opinion that must be respect. Remember Transdem is payware also TRS is payware. Thats why you need TRS to run even freeware routes. Also its because you want to make alot of such maps(where does it end)make it so difficult.
Hope you dont blame me for my opinion. :wave:
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Sorry for breaking in here, but this is just plain wrong
I would like you to study the previous posts, and please inform me, where Rick or I have mentioned "Alot of such maps"
Many of the maps and layouts on the DLS is actually made using TransDEM.
As Rick said, you dont need TransDEM to open or modify these maps.
All you need is a copy of Trainz.
If this makes it even more difficult, i would advice you to stay away from these maps, and simply stay with the buildt-in ones.
They are risk free, and freeware jus like ours.
Lars
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hi Lars
Well you did mention series request with community. So this can end up where? You know exactly that you got alot of request then. So if you dont want to dissapoint alot of routebuilders then it will be alot of maps. Plz its not that i dont like you idea. I just try to understand the maker of Transdem. You also know that there is alot of freeware stuff on DLS, but that doesn,t mean you can do with these assets all you want. Even to make a repaint of some stock, using meshes etc also need the aprrovement of the maker when you want to bring it to the community. And there are alot of peeps that tell you no go. Once again there is nothing wrong with you idea. Also you know when i use payware in a map then the user need to buy the payware before he can use the route. And because you dont need Transdem to open a map made by transdem is the problem because Transdem is a standalone payware prog.
and that is why i think Geophil dont want you to use it to make a series of maps on request because you also dont know where it ends(how many maps). But i think i better can stay out of this discussion now before i get some trouble with the community. And that is the last thing i want. Maby i see all wrong but its my point of view of this situation.
:wave:
Well you did mention series request with community. So this can end up where? You know exactly that you got alot of request then. So if you dont want to dissapoint alot of routebuilders then it will be alot of maps. Plz its not that i dont like you idea. I just try to understand the maker of Transdem. You also know that there is alot of freeware stuff on DLS, but that doesn,t mean you can do with these assets all you want. Even to make a repaint of some stock, using meshes etc also need the aprrovement of the maker when you want to bring it to the community. And there are alot of peeps that tell you no go. Once again there is nothing wrong with you idea. Also you know when i use payware in a map then the user need to buy the payware before he can use the route. And because you dont need Transdem to open a map made by transdem is the problem because Transdem is a standalone payware prog.
and that is why i think Geophil dont want you to use it to make a series of maps on request because you also dont know where it ends(how many maps). But i think i better can stay out of this discussion now before i get some trouble with the community. And that is the last thing i want. Maby i see all wrong but its my point of view of this situation.
:wave:
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I just read thru this thread and I frankly cannot believe the attitudes expressed herein!
If I create a route using Transdem, complete it and release it on the DLS there is absolutely no problem. None.
If I create a route in Transdem and pass it on to another user in a 'bare boards' state then I have STOLEN the license fee that should have been paid by the recipient for the use of the program. Yes, STOLEN.
The answer is so simple. If you want to create a Transdem route - buy the program.
If you want to distribute 'bare bones' routes, use HOG.
End of story.
Andy
If I create a route using Transdem, complete it and release it on the DLS there is absolutely no problem. None.
If I create a route in Transdem and pass it on to another user in a 'bare boards' state then I have STOLEN the license fee that should have been paid by the recipient for the use of the program. Yes, STOLEN.
The answer is so simple. If you want to create a Transdem route - buy the program.
If you want to distribute 'bare bones' routes, use HOG.
End of story.
Andy
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