New technology DEM maps?

[goodell911]

It is our goal, in addition to the many resources we already provide, to create an original and unique product to offer to the Trainz Community.

We have been discussing the idea of creating starter-routes as a freeware product line from DEM data, overlaying the appropriate Google satellite images instead of Tiger lines and then possibly even laying the mainline(s) at a minimum.

The end-user would then be responsible to construct the remainder of the model.

It has also been mentioned that it would be a good time, if beginning such a project, to gather suggestions and requests for locations not currently available for download in DEM.

We wonder if anyone has interest in such a package?

There is an on-going discussion and a poll here.

 

[Vern]

Well to be honest as a route builder I would rather do my terrain and map overlay from scratch. The other afternoon, it took me about an hour to stitch together the OS maps for a 60 mile route then about another hour to match it to the DEM in Transdem and trace out a vector line for the track. Create the files for Trainz, fire up CMP to import and all up and running ready to start track laying in less than a full afternoon. Basic track laying is not all that high a proportion of the workload either and in any event you can't necessarily lay the track in isolation to other features (stations, civil engineering etc.).

To be honest it's placing all the other detail, roads, terrain textures and free objects that takes the time not to mention all the small details.

This may possibly be of interest to some but while I have plenty of half finished routes in my train simming history, I have never felt inclined to take over something that is already partly built. Wasn't this idea tried once before for TRS with the (UK) Preston to Carlisle route which gave customers the option of buying the route in one of several stages of completeness. Not sure how successful the idea was but it would always be nagging the back of my mind that I might have wasted the money if I never got round to finishing off the project.

I guess it also depends on whether the service is freeware or payware and if the latter how much it will cost...

 

[bl4882]

I think your idea is an excellent one. While it may be easy for a veteran to create a terrain module in an afternoon, I doubt that many trainzers have the time or inclination to acquire and learn the programs required to do it. The terrain is kind of like benchwork in classic model railroading. Most want to get it over with as quickly as prudent and get to the track, scenery, structures, and equipment.

Having a satellite overlay is awesome. Laying in the basic trackwork, though, might be a nuisance to someone who wants to take modeller's license. Maybe the track could be an option?

Anyhow, hope you follow through with it. I think you will get a lot of takers, even as payware, if that is the direction you are going.

Bernie

 

[geophil]

Not to discourage anyone, but hasn't this new technology been invented before? Even with the basic HOG package you could always overlay ortho imagery. There are a few technical limitations, though.

While it may be easy for a veteran to create a terrain module in an afternoon, I doubt that many trainzers have the time or inclination to acquire and learn the programs required to do it.

Well, quite a few do. And it's always very encouraging to receive the feedback and being told it's not that complicated at all.

Vern says it took him one afternoon for his project. I think that's a very reasonable figure for the data source involved. It depends somewhat on the data sources available or used and the size of the route, of course. I posted an example for the Isle of Man a few months ago. That took just 10 minutes and less than 40 mouse clicks to generate it. It comprised SRTM DEM terrain and Map Tile ground texture overlay.

geophil

 

[goodell911]

I suppose 'New Technology' probably refers more to an end-product that is not currently in-production or readily available, more than an actual virgin science.

All of the technologies involved have been available for some time, just not in this particular combination as an easy download for the beginner or novice.

I probably should have mentioned before... the intention is to offer the series of these as Freeware, and to build a collection based upon popular locations requested by the Community.

 

[stouthm]

I've been following this thread and BINGO, the magic word, FREEWARE. It being free you can give it a try and if it's to hard or you don't want to spend the time with it then you haven't lost anything from your pocket but have gained more knowledge. A can't miss idea. Thanks.

 

[StorkNest]

I don't know what difference satellite images vs. TIGER will be but there has always been a community desire for DEMs. Look at the work done by fishlipsatwork and smooz on DLS. You don't need the track, let the user choose and lay it especially if you lay all one type of track and they want something like 3 different types, they would have to redo all your work anyway, no need to put yourself or anyone through all the effort.

I think the real problem, at least from what I've tried, is that the freeware version of doing my own DEMs has an outdated tutorial. It was made for an older version of MicroDEM, not the current version 10 where things are different. That put me off and I don't have the funds to get geophil's product so I currently have no way to try without kludging through how MicroDEM 10 works. If you know someone who understands it, a new tutorial would be good.

 

[mawilson]

I'm in the midst of updating the MicroDEM/TIGER/HOG tutorial "wewain" did for inclusion in the Trainz wikibook. Re-doing things to capture for a tutorial is a time consuming process. The real pain is tossing a working environment to do the capture. Well at least I should have it back at the end of the process.

 

[bl4882]

Hello Geophil,

Sorry for expressing myself poorly. I did not mean to say that creation of terrain is not worth an afternoon of effort. It certainly is worth that and more. No terrain, no trains. I only meant to signify that the product suggested would be valuable to those who might not wish to take the time to learn how to work the programs necessary to create it, and who would prefer to concentrate on other aspects of the hobby instead.

Bernie :wave:

 

[lewisner]

Its a great idea.I find the actual "building" of the route easy , but when it comes to understanding complicated computer programmes my brain simply blows a fuse.

 

[goodell911]

Tiger vs Google

I don't know what difference satellite images vs. TIGER will be...

DEM's with Tiger lines appear to you, the builder, as a grid pattern with blue, red and other colored lines representing where track, roads and rivers are supposed to be.

DEM's with Goodle tiles appear to you, the builder, as if you were looking out the window of an airplane or from a satellite. No grid, no lines... just the photo images like you would see with MapQuest or Goodle Earth laid appropriately on accurate terrain.

 

[geophil]

You are probably aware that there is a limit of 253 individual ground textures per route in Trainz. A ground texture covers exactly 10 x 10 m. How do want you render your satellite images? As ground textures? Or on floating texture carrier objects?

 

[goodell911]

Hi Phil,

To be honest with you, this project is in the capable hands of Caddylars... because, like many Trainzers, it is way beyond me.

He has been producing routes this way for some time now. And, while I can't begin to explain the technics of it, I can tell you that he has been successful on many occasions.

If you are curious to know the workings of the process, I would direct you to the GAURC forum where you can leave a message to Lars.

 

[Gandalf0444]

This is actually very intresting

 

[Vern]

Also there are many areas of the Earth not comprehensively covered on Google Earth, where zooming in gives an indistinct green blur i.e. totally useless for route building.

 

[backyard]

I'm up in the middle of this...

8) First, TransDEM, Trainz Edition, is a well thought out method of rendering geodata, UTM tiles from a raster overlay or directly to the baseboard, in color, with a Google Earth option, and the edition of vector lines, for railroad track, fences, roads, any spline. We're talking in a few hours. It is the complete package, adapted to TRS with a well documented exporter.

For this reason, creating that much of the map, leaves only one more step...researching the route, and applying scenery, using the Famous Plethora of Surveyor Objects(if you can find them).

There are always several detail options. Steam, in The Good 'ole Days, pre-Diesel, post WWII steam/Diesel mixed, 1st generation, 2nd gen., pre-Amtrak, pre/post deregulation, stripped down lean '90's, today, tomorrow, etc.

But, as long as the prototypical track elevations are correct, curves are smooth, no "kinks" or offsets of tangent track, I can be happy, as most of the time, I'm in the cab.

However, I feel this service, is totally necessary, to replicate and use as much of the national railroad map as we can get!

 

[Smileyman]

I just want to add my support for this great idea.

Even if there are a few people who may not want it because they prefer to do it themselves or use certain programs to do it :wave:, there will be many thousands of people who will be very glad of your efforts.

It sounds like the project is in capable hands.
Please keep us informed on the progress.

Good luck with it,
Smiley.

 

[comtrain]

What a really great idea!

I am really hoping that I can get to overlay this google map satellite view over my baseboard. I think the whole route is about 12 baseboards.
But back to your post.. I believe many people will be very pleased to have your maps to work on.
Cheers
Rod

 

[ccordes]

good idea but...

Aren't already a slew of blank hog-generated routes on the DLS? Some with census vector data and such?

 

[angelah]

My support

As a route builder and a detail fanatic I am all for base maps that will make the job simpler and more straightforward.
Anybody who is willing to spend time and effort trying to help the building section of the community gets my full support.
Great idea.
My time doesn't extend to learning new programs, at my age time is precious!
Nice to see a clip of a sample.... please.... just to get an idea.

Angela