Murphy was a poor programmer :hehe:. I worked with a few of them.
Trainz Plus Beta update - PC# 121380 & Mac# 121370
- Thread starter n3v_laurence
- Start date
Murphy was a poor programmer :hehe:. I worked with a few of them.
IsambardKingdomBrunel
Joined June 2001
Thank you very much for explaining the smooth ground function, pware 
Yup i understand about beta's breaking things, cheers. Just posting in frustration, i have been doing this Trainz thing since the stone age (feels like it).
Still does my head in though
Mike.
Yup i understand about beta's breaking things, cheers. Just posting in frustration, i have been doing this Trainz thing since the stone age (feels like it).
Still does my head in though
Mike.
Tony_Hilliam
Trainz Plus - enjoy Trainz from just 20 cents a da
What is the problem? Everything should work exactly the way it used to (unless you converted to HD, in which case, revert or convert back to 5m or 10m grid and you can carry on and ignore the new terrain and new tools.
I would expect that eventually Surveyor 2.0 (S20) will become "mainstream" in Trainz products (i.e. in the retail versions as well as the subscriptions) but I would also expect (hope??) that Surveyor Classic (S10) will be available as an option for a (hopefully) long time.
For new users to the Trainz franchise, S20 will be the "normal user interface" that they will see and use and it is only us "old timers" who will be sticking to S10 or will take longer to make the move over.
S20, for all the "issues" some users are having (including myself in the earlier days), has better features (e.g. new HD), more options (e.g. 6 different ways to set the height of an object), a better "workflow" (and I can confirm that it has reduced the time I have to spend on basic tasks) and greater potential for the future.
My thoughts and prognostications.
For new users to the Trainz franchise, S20 will be the "normal user interface" that they will see and use and it is only us "old timers" who will be sticking to S10 or will take longer to make the move over.
S20, for all the "issues" some users are having (including myself in the earlier days), has better features (e.g. new HD), more options (e.g. 6 different ways to set the height of an object), a better "workflow" (and I can confirm that it has reduced the time I have to spend on basic tasks) and greater potential for the future.
My thoughts and prognostications.
IsambardKingdomBrunel
Joined June 2001
I got so frustrated. I deleted it all thanks Tony. Didn't know there was an option to revert the terrain back. Compared to S1, S2 is just way to overcomplicated, in my opinion.
Mike.
JanRasmussen
Trainz Veteran
Totally agree
I thought S20 is way too technical/complicated for us "older people"
S10 is much more user-friendly.
If/when the S10 is removed from Trainz, I'll be gone too..
I am old (or so my birth date tells me) but I have adopted S20. At first it was a learning curve (did I mention that before - at my age I tend to forget) but now I feel that I have (mostly) mastered it. Apart from a few things in S10 that still have to be added to S20, I now use it most of the time.
But go with what works best for you.
. At first it was a learning curve (did I mention that before - at my age I tend to forget) but now I feel that I have (mostly) mastered it. Apart from a few things in S10 that still have to be added to S20, I now use it most of the time.But go with what works best for you.
capdiamont
Active member
I like the new version. Time savers, the ability to just convert the whole route to HD or convert existing to 5m, 10m, or HD. I did convert my Falk route I did from TransDEM, and while it complained about textures, and an overview of the route was blurry, zooming in, the route looks as sharp as it has been. I used convert existing base boards on my Falk and Natural Tunnel from original. It was nice just selecting a square without worrying if they are existing baseboards. My Falk route is a diagonal route and if I don't select only existing squares, it adds baseboards. It is also nice being able to zoom out to view the entire route and select the whole thing to convert existing baseboards. Previous Plus build, I had to be zoomed in more, otherwise I couldn't select anything and got a beep.
My Natural Tunnel baseboard, is an attempt to recreate the area by hand, and I wish for DEM import as I know it isn't right. That said, converting to HD, did smooth out some of my jagged terrain and the new water looks much better than my attempt. It is nice having the ability to work with sub meter areas. I don't think my artistic abilities will really showcase the differences between the old terrain and HD terrain.
My Natural Tunnel baseboard, is an attempt to recreate the area by hand, and I wish for DEM import as I know it isn't right. That said, converting to HD, did smooth out some of my jagged terrain and the new water looks much better than my attempt. It is nice having the ability to work with sub meter areas. I don't think my artistic abilities will really showcase the differences between the old terrain and HD terrain.
Tony_Hilliam
Trainz Plus - enjoy Trainz from just 20 cents a da
Sounds to me like we need a lot more videos demonstrating Classic vs S20. Perhaps even some live demonstrations.
Classic - half a dozen different tabs to switch between for each operation based upon asset type
S20 - dockable palettes based upon functionality not asset type
Classic - half a dozen different move tools, get tools, placement tools based upon asset type
S20 - one tool to place, a choice of 3 different tools to move things (depending on how many things you want to move and how you want to move them)
Classic - move one item of one asset type at a time
S20 - multi-select multiple assets of multiple types and move as a group, or Copy/paste that group, or save as a Scrapbook and copy paste into a different route altogether.
Obviously lots more in addition to that. Yes it's different and has a learning curve, but once the light bulb goes off, you won't go back to Classic.
Oh, and there is no intention to remove Classic, so don't start packing your bags just yet.
Classic - half a dozen different tabs to switch between for each operation based upon asset type
S20 - dockable palettes based upon functionality not asset type
Classic - half a dozen different move tools, get tools, placement tools based upon asset type
S20 - one tool to place, a choice of 3 different tools to move things (depending on how many things you want to move and how you want to move them)
Classic - move one item of one asset type at a time
S20 - multi-select multiple assets of multiple types and move as a group, or Copy/paste that group, or save as a Scrapbook and copy paste into a different route altogether.
Obviously lots more in addition to that. Yes it's different and has a learning curve, but once the light bulb goes off, you won't go back to Classic.
Oh, and there is no intention to remove Classic, so don't start packing your bags just yet.
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Sounds to me like we need a lot more videos demonstrating Classic vs S20. Perhaps even some live demonstrations.
but once the light bulb goes off, you won't go back to Classic.
.
The light bulb went on and lit the way a few times for me then blew each time.Ran out of bulbs.
That's why I went back to Classic, simple and just what I want except a smaller brush but I can put up with that
Sounds to me like we need a lot more videos demonstrating Classic vs S20. Perhaps even some live demonstrations.
Obviously lots more in addition to that. Yes it's different and has a learning curve, but once the light bulb goes off, you won't go back to Classic.
Oh, and there is no intention to remove Classic, so don't start packing your bags just yet.
I made the switch to S20. It is indeed a learning curve, but once you have mastered it route creation goes much faster. I have used it almost exclusively now for the past 8 months.
There are only two reasons I still use the classic version.
First, "Bulk Asset Update/Replace" is missing from S20. I use this if I want to replace all the track in a route, or all the signals, or the track ballast as examples. There is no comparable function that I can find in S20 that will do this. Yes, you can replace sections of track in an area of a grid or two, but not the entire route of say 200 grids.
Secondly I find S20 very difficult to use if I am manipulating an area with lots of splines; especially with lots of grass and flower splines. In S20 the spline end has such a tiny dot that its very hard to find the correct one. This is becomes more pronounced if the ground texture is dark.
A great example, perhaps taken to an extreme on grass splines, is the Ardennes and Summer Lake Track: kuid 2:181290:1006:13. Its nearly impossible, at least for me, to find the spline end points in S20. The are much easier to identify in the Classic version. There has to be a way to make the spline points more visible in a situation like this. It would be nice if there was an option to make the dot larger or have a small circle or some other technique to make the spine points stand out.
Again, for me, these are the only two reasons I still use the classic interface at times. Now with HD version this option will be removed.
To save my old tired typing fingers, I will simply echo Paul's words posted above.
When S20 first appeared in Trainz Plus I initially thought that it would be "too difficult" to easily master, particularly since the supporting documentation was very sparse (to say the least).
I took it slowly, in simple steps, learning as I went - and none of us are too old to learn new things.
When S20 first appeared in Trainz Plus I initially thought that it would be "too difficult" to easily master, particularly since the supporting documentation was very sparse (to say the least).
I took it slowly, in simple steps, learning as I went - and none of us are too old to learn new things.
Surveyor 2.0 isn't difficult to use. It takes a bit of rethinking sometimes on how to do the same things that are found in the old Surveyor 1.0. The issues I have with it are interface issues. The collapsible toolbars and panels are great, but they don't work because there's still the side panels eating up the very valuable real estate. With the side panels still there, there's little or no reason to hide the toolbars and menus. Even with a large monitor, I feel as though I'm working through a small portal instead of seeing the complete landscape. For this to be 100% better, the ability to move the various toolbars to a second display would've been even better, but unfortunately there is no MDI interface implemented. Apparently, the development team never uses the software to understand the needs of the users, or cares for that matter which is more apparent than anything else.
The small spline points on splines makes adjusting and editing difficult. Sorry, for those of us with worsening or poor eyesight, this is difficult to work with, and to add insult to injury the small properties icons also are way too small. I can barely tell what some of these are and are difficult to find when the screen is busy. The fact that they move around based on the length of the spline makes it worse because I'm forever looking for them instead of just going to them to do what's needed to be done, that is if I can see them.
Until these things are resolved, it'll be a long time before I use S20 for anything more than a brief test to see if nothing crashes during testing. It's just too uncomfortable to use on a regular basis.
The small spline points on splines makes adjusting and editing difficult. Sorry, for those of us with worsening or poor eyesight, this is difficult to work with, and to add insult to injury the small properties icons also are way too small. I can barely tell what some of these are and are difficult to find when the screen is busy. The fact that they move around based on the length of the spline makes it worse because I'm forever looking for them instead of just going to them to do what's needed to be done, that is if I can see them.
Until these things are resolved, it'll be a long time before I use S20 for anything more than a brief test to see if nothing crashes during testing. It's just too uncomfortable to use on a regular basis.
Tony_Hilliam
Trainz Plus - enjoy Trainz from just 20 cents a da
I think part of the problem here is thinking about S20 spline points as having the same behaviour as Classic.
In my example here I have 3 grass splines close together. In Classic, you click "somewhere" in the middle of the circles to attempt to move the specific spline end point you want to move. Sometimes, you get the one you're targetting and other times you get the wrong one.
Then you click at the other end and move that end. The point is that you need to be accurate where you click to get the right spline, even with enormous circles.
In S20, with "Free Move" tool selected, you can move the whole spline segment by clicking anywhere along the spline (so that is simple click and drag and you move both end points).
To move one end, mouseover near the end of the spline and it highlights. The actual clickable area is 10x the size of the black/green dot.
Clicking on the spline also highlights it, so the ends become quite obvious.
Another handy trick is to use Filter Selection so that the only spline you can move is the one selected. Or use Filter visibility to hide all objects other than the category/assets listed in the Asset list.
If you can demonstrate where this system goes wrong I'm happy to bring it up and see what we can do.
Btw, best tip ever: hit T with the spline selected to bring up the menu. I haven't clicked on the icon since I learnt that one.
In my example here I have 3 grass splines close together. In Classic, you click "somewhere" in the middle of the circles to attempt to move the specific spline end point you want to move. Sometimes, you get the one you're targetting and other times you get the wrong one.
Then you click at the other end and move that end. The point is that you need to be accurate where you click to get the right spline, even with enormous circles.
In S20, with "Free Move" tool selected, you can move the whole spline segment by clicking anywhere along the spline (so that is simple click and drag and you move both end points).
To move one end, mouseover near the end of the spline and it highlights. The actual clickable area is 10x the size of the black/green dot.
Clicking on the spline also highlights it, so the ends become quite obvious.
Another handy trick is to use Filter Selection so that the only spline you can move is the one selected. Or use Filter visibility to hide all objects other than the category/assets listed in the Asset list.
If you can demonstrate where this system goes wrong I'm happy to bring it up and see what we can do.
Btw, best tip ever: hit T with the spline selected to bring up the menu. I haven't clicked on the icon since I learnt that one.
I think part of the problem here is thinking about S20 spline points as having the same behaviour as Classic.
In my example here I have 3 grass splines close together. In Classic, you click "somewhere" in the middle of the circles to attempt to move the specific spline end point you want to move. Sometimes, you get the one you're targetting and other times you get the wrong one.
Then you click at the other end and move that end. The point is that you need to be accurate where you click to get the right spline, even with enormous circles.
In S20, with "Free Move" tool selected, you can move the whole spline segment by clicking anywhere along the spline (so that is simple click and drag and you move both end points).
To move one end, mouseover near the end of the spline and it highlights. The actual clickable area is 10x the size of the black/green dot.
Clicking on the spline also highlights it, so the ends become quite obvious.
Another handy trick is to use Filter Selection so that the only spline you can move is the one selected. Or use Filter visibility to hide all objects other than the category/assets listed in the Asset list.
If you can demonstrate where this system goes wrong I'm happy to bring it up and see what we can do.
Btw, best tip ever: hit T with the spline selected to bring up the menu. I haven't clicked on the icon since I learnt that one.
The issue with your example is that you have no ground texture to obscure the spline ends, and all the splines in your example are running parallel. Try having some crisscrossing splines plus some turfTX and ground clutter to your example and the problem becomes more evident. Enough experienced route builders are raising the issue that some alternatives should be explored.
Tony_Hilliam
Trainz Plus - enjoy Trainz from just 20 cents a da
I'm trying to get to the bottom of the actual problem which at the moment sounds like "I can't find the end of the spline" (and I'm not sure why not).
You've mentioned a use case, but not where the problem occurs.
In the case below, you can't see a spline point easily (I agree with that point), BUT moving your mouse over a mess of splines highlights each spline end point. You can grab and move each one to see which spline moves.
Alternatively, clicking on any spline highlights the whole spline so the ends become obvious (or just click and drag the whole thing without needing to see any spline points at all).
In the circle example, you can certainly see the circles, BUT how do you know which spline you're going to move when you click?
So the question is, what action are you trying to execute and having problems with (that can't be overcome by selecting the spline to highlight it first).
You've mentioned a use case, but not where the problem occurs.
In the case below, you can't see a spline point easily (I agree with that point), BUT moving your mouse over a mess of splines highlights each spline end point. You can grab and move each one to see which spline moves.
Alternatively, clicking on any spline highlights the whole spline so the ends become obvious (or just click and drag the whole thing without needing to see any spline points at all).
In the circle example, you can certainly see the circles, BUT how do you know which spline you're going to move when you click?
So the question is, what action are you trying to execute and having problems with (that can't be overcome by selecting the spline to highlight it first).
Tony_Hilliam
Trainz Plus - enjoy Trainz from just 20 cents a da
Switching the black spline points for much larger bright yellow points would result in this look - the green square is the current size.
No doubt it's easier to see - but as above, you're left with clicking and moving one to see which direction the spline actually heads, versus slicking on the segment itself and highlighting the segment under the current system.
Perhaps something in between? Thoughts? (No promises on any changes).
No doubt it's easier to see - but as above, you're left with clicking and moving one to see which direction the spline actually heads, versus slicking on the segment itself and highlighting the segment under the current system.
Perhaps something in between? Thoughts? (No promises on any changes).
already better Tony
It shows best when you have to work on platforms and catenary
imported an older gotthard route in the new beta
s1
The circles are very helpful when do catenary and they help where I need to change the platform roofs
they show:
-white, not fixed
-yellow fixed and even show an up and down arrow
-red bad procedural junction
as asked before, it would be helpful if they can be optional in S2 maybe in context menu
s2
like John said, the too small icons and black dots are making working in S2 not a feast and you get tired real fast
even with my optimized computer glasses.
in your example you see a black dot on green grass spline, many items are dark grey and then the black dot does not stand out
I tried to select the roof but it chooses the platform
When you select an item, the over the top green color makes you just run away, please make it more subtle
only a cadre(the edges) will do.
the pics also show the difference of the actual work space you see, it really matters if the docking bars
could be truely hidden complete
s2 sidebars? could be hidden
same view with a lil tweak (sended it to you some while back)
S2 tweak
how the context menu could be (pure graphic edit)
It shows best when you have to work on platforms and catenary
imported an older gotthard route in the new beta
s1
The circles are very helpful when do catenary and they help where I need to change the platform roofs
they show:
-white, not fixed
-yellow fixed and even show an up and down arrow
-red bad procedural junction
as asked before, it would be helpful if they can be optional in S2 maybe in context menu
s2
like John said, the too small icons and black dots are making working in S2 not a feast and you get tired real fast
even with my optimized computer glasses.
in your example you see a black dot on green grass spline, many items are dark grey and then the black dot does not stand out
I tried to select the roof but it chooses the platform
When you select an item, the over the top green color makes you just run away, please make it more subtle
only a cadre(the edges) will do.
the pics also show the difference of the actual work space you see, it really matters if the docking bars
could be truely hidden complete
s2 sidebars? could be hidden
same view with a lil tweak (sended it to you some while back)
S2 tweak
how the context menu could be (pure graphic edit)
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Hello All,
Just noticed that in latest beta build 121380 that some points (turnouts) seem to get locked with opposing AI trains "fighting" for access, with neither giving way. It seems to be a random thing, depending on when AI trains at meet. The AI trains just sit there waiting, waiting.....
Russell
Just noticed that in latest beta build 121380 that some points (turnouts) seem to get locked with opposing AI trains "fighting" for access, with neither giving way. It seems to be a random thing, depending on when AI trains at meet. The AI trains just sit there waiting, waiting.....
Russell
Tony,
A couple of comments. Some wide splines with uneven end points, (JVC(m) Grass & Shrub#33b Spline kuid 2:328583:3224:1 as an example), do not have the spline end dot really close to the spline end. In cases like this the dot is very hard to find with dark textures and lots of TurfFX. Its like looking for a needle in the haystack. This is true even if the spline is highlighted.
G.M.'s comment post 138 is also true. I have several routes that have catenary installed. It is much easier to edit using the classic surveyor versus S2.0.
I will agree that the black spline end dot is unintrusive in a lot of cases, but the larger yellow dot is easier to work with in many situations. An ideal situation would be to have an option to switch the larger spline end dot on when needed.
Thanks for looking for options.
A couple of comments. Some wide splines with uneven end points, (JVC(m) Grass & Shrub#33b Spline kuid 2:328583:3224:1 as an example), do not have the spline end dot really close to the spline end. In cases like this the dot is very hard to find with dark textures and lots of TurfFX. Its like looking for a needle in the haystack. This is true even if the spline is highlighted.
G.M.'s comment post 138 is also true. I have several routes that have catenary installed. It is much easier to edit using the classic surveyor versus S2.0.
I will agree that the black spline end dot is unintrusive in a lot of cases, but the larger yellow dot is easier to work with in many situations. An ideal situation would be to have an option to switch the larger spline end dot on when needed.
Thanks for looking for options.
