N3V Needs to support pre-SP1 users with DLC
- Thread starter nathanmallard
- Start date
Definitely more than enough people and a lot of talent, so it could easily survive. I'll stick with Trainz to the bitter end, whether the company itself (N3V) goes under or stays afloat.
KingConrail76
Active member
I agree with BOTH of you, but I also agree with RRSignal...
Anything POST-SP1/DRM-tied would be useless, but everthing PRE-SP1 would live on WITHOUT N3V. Just look at the Trainsim.com/MSTS community.
-Though Trainsim.com is getting a bit stagnant, keep in mind that Microsoft abandoned that franchise some 10-11 years ago.
I also want to emphasize some points made earlier about "Piracy"
-The "allegedly/appearently pirated" versions of Trainz that are showing up lately are 2006, 2009, and a rare 2010...SP1/DRM will do NOTHING to curtail this activity.
-Someone mentioned that because of the "type" of community surrounding Trainz and it's "concentrated" DLC/DLS content, that "pirates" are more likely to end up purchasing a legit copy to gain access to the DLS...I only know of ONE such incident, within the past three weeks, and due to COC restrictions, I dare not mention the "boy's" name, but Nintendo fans will know who I speak of....I think he may have even set a record for the most posts in one day, last week.
--I think it is HIGHLY unlikely that N3V's attempts to stop piracy in a "low income" situation by implementing DRM/Internet requirements will actually pan out, as the case above is the exception to the rule, so to speak.
Most thieves steal by choice, not out of need, and as such, would never chose to pay for something they just downloaded for free via torrent files, or otherwise...there is simply too much free content all over the internet to justify buying a legit version just for access to the DLS. In fact, MUCH of what is on the DLS is ALSO hosted elsewhere, usually by the creator on their own web site (weebly/mediafire/etc.etc.)
In the end, I think N3V will realise that their attempts to prevent theft (by use of invasive DRM/Internet requirements) just reduced legitamate sales and made people angry, rather than actually boosting their income, or reducing their losses.
--MANY purchases of "Trainz for PC" were "boxed" versions, intended as "gifts" for young children, un-able, or not allowed, to have internet access.
jjanmarine3
Active member
I will also stick with trainz as long as there is still an asset that moves. But don't be like a certain electricity company that has not done it's homework , sells electricity to users and then has the cheek to tell them when to use it and how much to use.
Give credit to the content creators who fix the fux and find a happy solution
Give credit to the content creators who fix the fux and find a happy solution
Quite a few of you seem to missed a pretty good point here. I will use JointedRail as the example. All of you are whining about the DRM for any DLC content post SP1. Not one of you has mentioned the way that JR do things. Any content they put up as DLC from the start of SP1 will obviously have the DRM code added but here is the point all of you are missing. That same payware content created by them is also available with no DRM from the JointedRail website. I would assume that is how all payware creators will work in future.
Regards
Peter
Just wondering, are you an authorized rep of JR, or one of the many who sling around JR banners pretending to be part of the crew. Just wondering.
Assuming your statement on behalf of JR is accurate, it's really not an issue: I'll buy my content straight from JR, as I've mostly done anyway. However, your policy statement has zero whatsoever to do with N3V official DLC as well as the game itself. Right now, all new N3V DLC will be DRMed. There are no alternatives. All pre-SP1 DLC is still available (AFAIK) in DRM-free or DRMed mode, depending on whether or not you have SP1 installed. The game itself will almost certainly be DRMed*. Then whatever JR or anybody else is pointless.
*I base that prediction on my private conversations as well as my business and technical experience. Just to stave off critics who might say I'm paranoid or who will say, "you have no proof of that." I ask that those of you who feel this way to also help out Mr. Ogymbe Motubo, this really nice African prince who just emailed me and just needs some money to get $50billion his country is holding for taxes...
Then you/Gawpo are poor representatives, especially since you seem to sling about misinformation, which is what I was getting at previously. That's not meant to be mean, but JR should do a better job of vetting who represents them. That's a concern for any business.
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Just keep up the personal attacks then cause that's all you have. Or are you a little bit jellycause you cant have a good sig too.
Cheers Mick.:wave:
You're really the last person who should be talking about personal attacks; many if not most of your posts consist of such.
More important, you can't understand the major holes in Gawpo's arguments, so you resort to your attacks.
KingConrail76
Active member
Peter, not sure why you quoted me on this one, as I NEVER mentioned Payware Vendors (or 3rd parties of any other sort) being solely available on the DLS/DLC in my Post.
-If you re-read my post, I am pretty sure I spoke of much along the same lines as-yourself, that most DLS content IS available directly from it's source, be it JR, SoCal, N8Phu, TrainzDepot, and on and on.
-This is another comparison with Microsoft Train Simulator (MSTS) and the "Trainsim" community; They have survived MANY years WITHOUT Microsoft; albeit without "support/updates", but the members stepped up, and 95% of MSTS content is POST-MS.
--One difference is that the "community" drives the Payware market, not the "Maker of the Sim/Game".
I'm not offended that you misunderstood my position and "understanding", but I wanted to be clear that I DO understand quite well; If N3V continues to alienate the PC user, I am very OK with that, as I can get what I need elsewhere, and MUCH of it "legally" for FREE.
It's the weekend folks, let's all just relax a bit, understand that it is WE the Buyers/Users who have the final say (no matter what your "say" is) in N3V's financial future, and try to ACT like the "community" we are suppossed to be.
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If I may present my point of view with regards to the DLS, specifically, the following statement and similar opinions:
When I first started with TRS2006, being young and without convenient online spending sources (ie. own credit card), many things were off limits to me, such as payware and FCT. The 100mb limit and crawling speeds pretty much meant almost all my content came from 3rd party sites. Having experienced this method of content acquisition first-hand, I can tell you that it is quite a nightmare as compared to having DLS access. Virtually every route you download will have lots of dependencies on the DLS. Same goes for rolling stock. I remember having reached the download limit and needing stuff that was on the DLS, I ended up swapping couplers, enginespecs, hornsounds and lots of dependencies around to make content work, including Frank'd (Sporbust) locomotives and still had thousands of assets with missing dependencies totaling tens of gigabytes.
3rd party sites are very nice, yes. They are a viable option for content creators who seek an alternative to the DLS. However, the DLS should not be dismissed as irrelevant or unimportant because of the fragmented and disorganized nature of hundreds of third party download sites. Therefore I maintain that the DLS is a deterrent to Trainz piracy as it is an important part of the Trainz experience, the lack thereof gives the pirate great inconvenience.
When I first started with TRS2006, being young and without convenient online spending sources (ie. own credit card), many things were off limits to me, such as payware and FCT. The 100mb limit and crawling speeds pretty much meant almost all my content came from 3rd party sites. Having experienced this method of content acquisition first-hand, I can tell you that it is quite a nightmare as compared to having DLS access. Virtually every route you download will have lots of dependencies on the DLS. Same goes for rolling stock. I remember having reached the download limit and needing stuff that was on the DLS, I ended up swapping couplers, enginespecs, hornsounds and lots of dependencies around to make content work, including Frank'd (Sporbust) locomotives and still had thousands of assets with missing dependencies totaling tens of gigabytes.
3rd party sites are very nice, yes. They are a viable option for content creators who seek an alternative to the DLS. However, the DLS should not be dismissed as irrelevant or unimportant because of the fragmented and disorganized nature of hundreds of third party download sites. Therefore I maintain that the DLS is a deterrent to Trainz piracy as it is an important part of the Trainz experience, the lack thereof gives the pirate great inconvenience.
KingConrail76
Active member
I don't want to sound wishy-washy, so let me say; DRM/DLC/DLS affecting the "legitamate" use of Trainz, and it's future for PC based versions is a COMPLETELY seperate issue from DLS/DRM/DLC preventing "Piracy" for me, and when I posted about Third Party "availability", I was speaking more towards the FUTURE of PC-based Trainz...
If N3V decide to, or are forced to, drop support for PC-based versions, the DLS as we know it will cease to exsist. Apple based, and Android based "Games" would still have access to a repository, I'm sure, but it would be a greatly streamlined and limited access system, I'm also sure.
-In such a case, MUCH of those "Dependencies" WOULD find their way to the third-party sites, "Legally" in very short order. Keeping in mind, the DLS is used now for it's convienence...if it did not exsist (N3V goes belly up), the content would assuradly re-appear elsewhere, provided by the original creators.
-Those items that are "Auran/N3V" owned would be replaced by community members...all we have to do to confirm this is look at MSTS and Trainsim.com
I do whole heartedly agree with you that the DLS system IS a deterant to piracy from a stand point of the "lazy kid" who just wants something for nothing, but it really IS NOT a deterant for a specific, unnamed, cross-section of a "low income market" that N3V is aiming to protect itself from.
-In the second situation, we are talking about a NETWORK of a LARGE NUMBER of individuals working TOGETHER to reduce the total expediture of the GROUP...think organised crime.
--They are able to "pool" their funds, buy one legitimate copy, and then "share" that one legitimate copy, and with it, gain access to the DLS/DLC/DRM protected content.
One person can get a FCT and download a whole bunch of stuff, then distribute it for the cost of a $4.00 USB stick...in these cases, the DLS does NOTHING to prevent piracy.
Also as was mentioned, there are quite a few "professional" "coders" in that community/organisation that DO have the ABILITY to break the DRM protection.
Hi KingConrail,
You bring up good points, especially prospects in future, that have not previously occurred to me. I agree with you and stand corrected regarding the DLS. I have at one point thought about a few people pooling some resources together to download the entire DLS as an effective backup should anything untoward happen.
You bring up good points, especially prospects in future, that have not previously occurred to me. I agree with you and stand corrected regarding the DLS. I have at one point thought about a few people pooling some resources together to download the entire DLS as an effective backup should anything untoward happen.
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cascaderailroad
New member
The entire DLS is huge (I once enquired about this) and was told that it would take lots of hard drive(s) space.
jacksonbarno
Alco Spoken Here
I agree with KingConrail in the sense that the action that N3V is taking is only alienating PC users. By cutting off pre-SP1 users, they just eliminated 95% of their DLC customers, not to mention the support issue (cough*spellingerror*cough). If N3V thinks that this new way of approach will possibly force or persuade people like me to update, they have another thing coming. They seem to not realize that they do not control the only way of getting content, and by implementing the DRM has only made it harder for legitimate users to use the sim. If N3V should go under, I don't want my game and/or content to go with it. Also, the DRM really hurts people who have an unreliable internet connection or no internet at all. All in all, the decisions that N3V has made regarding SP1 and the DRM have made the game go in a direction that RW went a long time ago, and it has plagued that game since.
KingConrail76
Active member
I don't disagree one bit with the enormity<sp?> of the DLS, however, lets keep in-mind that a good percentage of the DLS is redundant/out of date/obsolete for the majority of users.
-Yes, there are a few, and maybe QUITE a few folks still using early Tainz and 2004, and a bit more using 2006 and UTC, but I would venture with confidence that the majority of DLS users are running 2009 and up versions, so not the ENTIRE DLS would need to be "re-released" via 3rd party sites.
-By "redundant" I don't mean the affore mentioned out of date/obsolete items, but the large amount of items which are significantly similar to others.
--Generalized example; 19 repaints of a UP SD40-2 loco, or 16 versions of Route "X" just so "joe schmoe" can say he uploaded something.
In some peoples OPINIONs, much of what is on the DLS is trash, and only there because Auran/N3V once thought that including EVERYONE was a good thing.
As for an after-life for PC based Trainz; It would only take one person with the financial means to create a "File Library", like what is at TrainSim, that would rival the current DLS...just sayin.
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