Getting Trainz to look and feel more realistic? Ala MSTS/Railworks? HOW?

[Davie_UCF]

I've been using Trainz since the first version.. I love the functionability it has, for example I finally got my route to the level where I can feel its finished enough to set up AI for and i've spent weeks setting up automated schedules to bring it to life.

But one thing Trainz lacks that really grinds my gears compared to MSTS & Railworks is the realism.

Granted Railworks has near none of the functionability of Trainz.. Its just pretty and I guess good to drive in.

Thats my problem, why is Railworks so more immersive? Why does it feel like you're in that Black 5 or whatever loco of choice.. Why when you're on a platform does it feel like that beast of a locomotive is really there and is bigger than you?

On trainz locos still feel small, no matter how greatly modeled or textured. I've scratched my head over this for a few years now and I feel strongly this is one of the things Auran needs to sort out in the next version.

I'd like to hear your opinions on why Trainz still feels like a model railway where as Railworks & MSTS have that bit of realism and scale to them.
Is it to do with the camera field of view for example..


Heres two albeit bad examples of Trainz next to Railworks

Better pic

Any tips on how to improve the realism & immersion factors in Trainz would be great...

 

[mezzoprezzo]

Hi Davie_UCF,


You’ve not said which is which?


Both examples aren’t the best for a fair comparison (sorry ). Edit: Since replaced with new Trainz image - better angle, but that sky doesn't look good. Cloudy grey, like the top shot would look so much better.


Top picture is taken showing the loco at a low angle. That’s good, and makes the loco look bigger – more as you would see it standing at ground level.

Unfortunately the trees have vastly overscaled leaves, which make even the best presented model look like a toy. That’s why those barfy Speedtrees have to be set at the middle to far distance in any screenshot where they are/have to be presented. They still don’t look right yet – though I suppose they will someday!


The lower shot is viewing the rolling stock from too high an angle. The sky is also overstated – again making the shot look unrealistic.


I think we need to see a comparison of the two sims with just one loco at the same viewing angle and similar plain skies – and preferably with Tundra trees!


Cheers
Casper

 

[Davie_UCF]

Someone else should supply a screenshot from Trainz to match the Railworks one then... I know its not a good comparison but I was pushed for time

I'll give it another go later on

 

[LieLestoSbrat]

2 reasons in my view

1) Camara views

2) Model/texture quality.

Looking at point one, it can be harder in Trainz to get that low down shot like in railsim, due to how the players viewport behaves. A good example is when your in free roam view and you want to get a load down shot in a cutting, its almost impossible to get the view point to head level at the bottom of the cutting. The view point feels like an object the size of a battleship. Another factor against the viewport is the inability to zoom right up close to a selected item, the closet you appear to be able to get to is about 20m's away. Another point to remember is in Trainz the field of view is different in Surveyor compared to Driver.

Point 2 is slowly being addressed in 2010 and by content creators. The more people that are making content to 2009+ standards the better. Locos and rolling stock will look more impressive and the world around them will feel more realistic. This though will take time.

And 2 screens which I think shows Trainz does have a fighting chance.

Rob

 

[mezzoprezzo]

Here's one of my earlier ones.

TRAINZ

Cheers
Casper

 

[stovepipe]

I agree with Caspar, a poor example from both sims.

Why RW is considered more immersive based on that shot I really don't know. The loco has no headcode lamps or steam escaping anywhere. There is no boundary fence or telegraph wires, the ground textures are basic and the track is just "OK". If you could hear the loco, you know it would sound pretty poor. That said - it is nice looking model and maybe, ultimately, that is all that matters to some...

Edit: nice shot ^^

 

[BobCass]

Hi All: It looks like to me the biggest thing is the depth of field..The 3D effect is not their, so it makes everything flat looking..I do believe that is true in Trainz..However, Trainz outclasses everything I have seen at this point, mainly because things that available from the DS..

 

[Davie_UCF]

Updated with a closer pic..

Why RW is considered more immersive based on that shot I really don't know. The loco has no headcode lamps or steam escaping anywhere. There is no boundary fence or telegraph wires, the ground textures are basic and the track is just "OK". If you could hear the loco, you know it would sound pretty poor. That said - it is nice looking model and maybe, ultimately, that is all that matters to some..

Well what I mean, removing all those little things like headcodes and steam escaping.. somehow it still feels real, the loco feels big and when you're in it you feel like you're in control of something big... On Trainz I rarely get this feeling..

 

[PerRock]

I think a fair bit of it has to do with lighting. RS/RW seems to have a better lighting engine then Trainz does. Things that are supposed to be shiny look more shiny then in TRS.

peter

 

[Dermmy]

There is definitely 'something' about the lighting in RW that looks fantastic. Don't ask me to quantify it and on the whole I believe Trainz beats RW into a cocked hat, but there is still 'something'...

Andy

 

[paulhobbs]

It's the lighting. Trainz models don't cast shadows on themselves which RW ones do. The new materials in TS2009/TS2010 help but its still not as good.

Paul

 

[mezzoprezzo]

It's the lighting. Trainz models don't cast shadows on themselves which RW ones do. The new materials in TS2009/TS2010 help but its still not as good.

Paul

There may not be solid shadows, but there is a marked difference in the reflections on Trainz models depending on time of day.

Try standing on the south side (northern hemisphere) of a loco, then swing the clock around. The difference is very noticeable - the reflective highlights move around the model very effectively. Isn't this a form of shadowing?

Casper

 

[Davie_UCF]

There may not be solid shadows, but there is a marked difference in the reflections on Trainz models depending on time of day.

Try standing on the south side (northern hemisphere) of a loco, then swing the clock around. The difference is very noticeable - the reflective highlights move around the model very effectively. Isn't this a form of shadowing?

Casper

I have noticed this, but maybe its not as good as what the Railworks engine has..

Plus I think Lielestosbrats thought might be it, something to do with the view anyhow..!

 

[trainzamtrakfan]

its the fact that these other railway simulators focus on the " tallness of a locomotive" and other things that trainz doesnt, trainz is the easiest simulator in the world ( My opinion) and i do believe trainz is better than msts by ALOT but trainz focuses more on routes and trainz then just looking good, trainz could of sucked and still sold more than any other simulator

 

[RRSignal]

It has long bugged me that even MSTS' lighting is better and more realistic than Trainz'. RW also has better lighting (and effects derived from it), based on those screenies.

 

[505657j]

check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYH_0GqeYKM

 

[Vern]

Possibly the fact RW is a newer graphics engine? I don't know whether Kuju started from the ground up or used their existing technology but I guess it was optimised from the start to represent the real world.

Trainz started off primarily as a model simulator and despite the overhauls of Jet and the great leaps in artistic creativity it can't, at times, shake that off.

I do know what the OP means though. A classic example for me are the RWSO Chinese diesels. Look good in TS2010 but the similar modelsfrom the same artist in RW are magnificent and just overpower you.

To get Trainz to look more realistic would I'm afraid probably require a rewrite of the core and graphics engine. The priority if Auran want to do anything though is to update the track placement so that points and switches automatically render with frogs and checkrails. That to me is the biggest single drawback that Trainz carries with it, bearing in mind that MSTS which pre-dated Trainz by a few months managed correct looking pointwork.

 

[mezzoprezzo]

Thanks Jeremiah for the YouTube link to the Railworks video in your post #16. Very informative.

Lots of heads above the Railworks parapet. The crew there seem to be very enthusiastic. A great piece of communication. HD too! A well produced video which, on the face of it, implies a potentially good product.

However, it poses more questions than answers:

World Building? There was none (well not much) shown. Can you do textures, landscaping, add assets and build like Trainz? If you can, why isn’t this shown more fully? Is it because it’s not as good as Trainz? I’d have thought that this is a key feature required for any keen route builder. The “artists” just seemed to concentrate on loco design, or very basic route creation.

Those track textures below the ballast – what an awful looking pebble effect. In fact there seemed to be a distinct lack of good ground textures. Just lots of plain green with track overlaid, for the most part, which simply does not look real. Where there are bursts of under-track texture it looked too spread out.

40,000 polys for one loco! What spec PC do you need to run these heavyweights?

Is there a Railworks equivalent of the Download station?

If so, is it extensive and easy to use? If not, how easy is it to get 3rd party stuff?

I didn’t like the way of adding the splines, e.g for track and fences. Much better Trainz style where you can see exactly what you are adding and where, rather than laying some wire frame shape before seeing the result.

The trees don’t look real. Even when pushed into the background they make the locos and rolling stock look toy-like. Can billboard type trees be used?

Can you get buy a boxed set from a local store and play without being logged in to Steam?


Cheers
Casper

 

[nfitzsimmons]

Sniper297 (Jim Ward) can offer some input on this. He's worked with extensively with MSTS, RW, and Trainz.

Jim, ya there?

 

[sniper297]

No no no no yes no maybe no

Not necessarily in that order. Well, some of this is opinions, I personally think Railworks LOOKS realistic, but that's all it has going for it. The 40k polys observation is also a factor, fill up a yard with 200 highly detailed freight cars and you'll need Alienware to get 3 frames per minute. Draw distance in RW is a lot lower, about 2000 meters max, the procedural flora looks yummy up close but fades out at 30 meters. Freight cars with 3D ribs look great close up, but the LOD makes the ribs "pop" in and out too close.

Question quotes;

World Building? There was none (well not much) shown. Can you do textures, landscaping, add assets and build like Trainz? If you can, why isn’t this shown more fully? Is it because it’s not as good as Trainz? I’d have thought that this is a key feature required for any keen route builder. The “artists” just seemed to concentrate on loco design, or very basic route creation.

Vern and I disagree on this, I like Railworks "world editor" a lot better than Trainz Surveyor route editing, to me it's easier to lay better looking track, Trainz lacks the ability to tilt objects, and the terrain sculpting tools are a lot smoother, easier to blend terrain textures. Vern has a valid point about the time it takes - Railworks don't have the all-in-one copy and paste, and when you select something like a group of trees to paste on a hillside you have to unselect and reselect what you pasted before you can level them to terrain. Vern has been telling them for years that it needs some type of automatic leveling and they just give him a hard time.

Bad news is the scenario editor - it's a ridiculous Rube Goldberg contraption, unnecessarily complicated and clumsy, ridiculously limited as to what you can do with AI traffic, and buggy as hell. I told them three years ago they needed to rip the whole thing out and start over, instead they kept adding more complex workarounds to try to overcome some of the flaws which added even more bugs. I'm a stubborn bullheaded SOB, if the Railworks scenario editor and AI traffic weren't completely hopeless I wouldn't even be here since I never would have tried Trainz.


Those track textures below the ballast – what an awful looking pebble effect. In fact here seemed to be a distinct lack of good ground textures. Just lots of plain green with track overlaid, for the most part, which simply does not look real. Where there are bursts of under-track texture it looked too spread out.

I created my own terrain gravel textures to blend in with the ballast better, that's a matter of the creator of the route, not a limitation of the game.


40,000 polys for one loco! What spec PC do you need to run these heavyweights?

Actually Railworks runs smoother on my five year old Dell than TS2010 does, Railworks actually requires less horsepower.

Is there a Railworks equivalent of the Download station?

No.

If so, is it extensive and easy to use? If not, how easy is it to get 3rd party stuff?

There isn't much free third party stuff. Main problem is experienced freeware developers had been developing for MSTS and Trainz for over five years when railsim first came out - in order to grab all those people railsim needed to be not merely better than the other two, it needed to be spectacular. It came up very very very short of spectacular, there are many things MSTS and Trainz can do that Railworks can NOT do, even after three years of development.

I didn’t like the way of adding the splines, e.g for track and fences. Much better Trainz style where you can see exactly what you are adding and where, rather than laying some wire frame shape before seeing the result.

I didn't have a problem with that, and I liked the ability to "loft" things so they followed the curve of the track. Might be a newby thing, I've only had Trainz for a few months so I'm still getting used to the tools.

The trees don’t look real. Even when pushed into the background they make the locos and rolling stock look toy-like. Can billboard type trees be used?

Again a matter of taste, to me they look more realistic than Trainz, and you don't get that alpha sorting issue where the branches turn blue against the sky.

Can you get buy a boxed set from a local store and play without being logged in to Steam?

No, you can order a boxed set online, my preference since Nels Anderson has been around for a long time and has a good rep;

http://www.fspilotshop.com/product_info.php?products_id=2425

But last I looked they weren't selling in stores anyplace. "Play without being logged into STEAM", depends on what you mean - you can set it to play in "offline mode" and disconnect from the internet, but only after creating a STEAM account, downloading and installing the STEAM launcher and registering the game with STEAM. AFAIK the game itself won't run without the STEAM launcher, but it's set up to automatically log you into STEAM when you run the game. Obviously that makes for longer loading times even running offline, depending on the system it can take 3 to 5 minutes before you're actually driving a train. There is no non STEAM version.