Content Creation 'Guilds'

[EverTrainz]

Hello,

I would just like to take a moment to ask this question on behalf of many other aspiring content creators. Remember, back in the Elder days, where many could group together to produce one large result, better than all other smaller results combined? Neither do I.

But, N3V has given the key to content creation to us, the community. Perhaps, just maybe, we could get along and collaborate without much fuss over 'rights' and 'distribution'? Assembly line fashion, anyone? Suppose a group of 5 working on a locomotive. That's 5 times more accurate, faster, and thorough, than if a single person was creating it. Some people working on each piece, and it'd be over before you knew it.

You may be asking, if one needs help, why not just ask in the forums, rather than obliging 4 others to do what he should've been able to do himself? The answer lies in simple psychology. People are always needing help, no matter what the case. We're just too ashamed, arrogant, or haughty to admit it. Does someone just go into a project with a set of drawings saying, "I know all I need to know before starting this. I can shut off the internet for a solid month and come out with a bang-on model." (and succeed)? No, never, not going to happen.

It's still going to take a while to build it, even if most information is at-hand. If we band together, we can shrink that 6-month build period into 1 month, and still get better results. However, we as content creators, have evolved to be independent of others. Should this idea take off, we must only rely on others for knowledge, and information. Building meshes and scripting locos could also be thrown about the hands, but only to a certain degree. We have full time jobs, yes. But, we could spend the same time out on a 90%-sure-to-end-up-as-vaporware project as we could building and being productive together.

Most-likely, this is me out on one of those high-time whims I get, but it's a good idea nonetheless. If anyone is interested, for my period (BR pioneer diesels) please let me know soon. It's an opinion, all right, but if everyone cooperates, we can match the content palette of the TS series in no time.

Much regards, Ron

 

[Dinorius_Redundicus]

Elder days and guilds - sounds a bit like living in Skyrim. Several guilds already exist - Jointed Rail, RRMods and others. Being an outsider, I'm not sure if they divide the work up among several members as in a commercial production line, or if they are more like a group of creators who help each other out by sharing knowledge. Either way, a potential member would probably need to first establish their credentials as an individual artisan before anyone accepts them into their secret lair. Working in a group might have advantages for the individual creator (shared knowledge, software, ideas) but it may not be for everyone due to the usual human group dynamics - differences in work ethics, ego, personality clashes etc.

 

[VinnyBarb]

My thoughts are, if one is a (reasonable) good content creator, he/she will always go alone to create whatever. Hence no hassles with other members, of waiting for progress/finish of other members parts, some members creating wasteful performance/polygon wise and being different constructed/build than other members of such group might do, etc., which might need extensive reworking If you work alone on a project, it is YOU ALONE being responsible for its creation. You either live with it or you die with it.

If a group of inexperienced people go together, well, what would one get? Quite a bit of experience is missing in the group, hence one still needs to ask outside (forum etc.) for help. As I personally would think, a very experience builder in such a group is wasting his/her time by explaining, correcting, reworking, whatever, because the rest of the members are somewhat inexperienced and might not create up to scratch. Plus I can see, if allocating different tasks to different people, especial if these are not yet fully experienced, sooner rather than later one might/will say, this is way over my head, I would like to try something else.

It might work OK if such an experienced member in such a group is prepared to spend his/her time explaining, teaching, correcting, rebuilding but isn't it every one's idea of content creating to create as much as possible, the best and correct way one good content creator knows how to do this? Meaning, then not "wasting" his/her time getting slowed down in such a group and thereby losing his/her goal of content creating. That is why I NEVER create in conjunction with someone else on a project and I guess, I am not alone in my thinking.

IMHO, the other thing to consider is, just because, say, 5 members are in a group, hence such a project might get finished 5 times as fast as if one content creator might create that item alone. Reality is quite different, believe you me, I, being 75 years of age and being a business person in my working life's past and there employing quite a few people at given times and expecting if say, 2 people share a project, this might be done in half the time. Not so.

Anyway, it is worth a try for you and good luck with this.

My opinion

VinnyBarb

 

[VinnyBarb]

I forgot:

But, N3V has given the key to content creation to us, the community.......

Have they really? Open your eyes, they have AFAIK only ONE resident content creator named Rob, an excellent creator. He might not even be a member of N3V anymore after the recent purge when even James Moody was dismissed after some 10 years service to N3V. Hence N3V Games solely rely on us "dumb" for FREE content creators to create FREE CONTENT for Trainz. Once uploaded such FREE CONTENT to the DLS, it is NOT FREE anymore for us, as said, "dumb" content creators like me or you, as N3V can DO ANYTHING with our free created content once uploaded by us to the DLS. They can use such FREE, by us "dumb" content creators created content, place such into PAYWARE routes or wherever they might use your or my FREE content and charge for such.

What would you get for all this FREE content creating? In my case, I got forcible locked out of the AURAN/N3V forums for a certain period each time for telling here as things really are. Not a nice reward if one wants to create content for Trainz. You might ask, why am I still here creating, well, often I ask myself the same but I will tell you. I create content as a hobby, it keeps my brain active, I love it, as well as to see any of my creations getting d/loaded by others and sometimes/often praised for creating my creations by forum users. What did N3V Games ever give me for enriching their developed Trainz and thereby making Trainz a viable project as it is solely the content on the DLS which is important for Trainz's survival. I know that, YOU know that but apparently N3V does not give a fig about us content creators.

Just read the forum of HOW MANY TIMES have we asked over the years for N3V to create certain utilities to help us in content creating. How many utilities have they made for us? NONE AFAIK, other users did this but it should not be their job. We asked repeatedly, the current TrainzWiki is a PITA, search only works if asking the EXACT right word to search for. Most of the time one doesn't even get a correct answer as this what one is looking for is STILL missing and now we content creators are even SUPPOSED to update this TrainzWiki. FAT CHANCE, how would we do this as N3V creates the code and develops Trainz, N3V knows the code and the tags and configurations to make tis all work correctly and we DON'T. BUT DO THE GIVE US content creators such necessary informations, even when asked or searching in that infernal TrainzWiki? No way, unless one probes and almost kicks some of their "supposed gurus" for help.

As I had to do when Rob gave us a couple of spline meshes to study from of how to create bridges and tunnels for Trainz. But forgot to tell us, by using NEW TAGS for these new spline meshes no one even knew at the time how to configure these.

I could go on and on and on and on but just read the content creators forum and you will see how frustrated we content creators often get when NOT GETTING meaningful answers from N3V Games. Don't they realize, WITHOUT us creating content, they might as well close the doors, turn off the lights and go on to some other people punishing projects, as long this is NOT Train Modeling.

My serious opinion

VinnyBarb

 

[davesnow]

I wholeheartedly agree with Deane and Vinnybarb.

I create my sloppy creations because I like to, and I like to because there's no pressure. No one's twisting my arm. I do what I want to do. If someone suggests something and it strikes my fancy, I might do it.

I love my freedom.

Cheers,

Dave Snow

 

[wva-usa]

Back several decades ago, there was an S Scale (3/16" = 1') "association" that managed to put out a series of brass kits that allowed one to build a variety of complete steam locomotives, which included the NKP, C&O, VGN, & PM 2-8-4 steam locomotives. The parts for these kits were made by a number of different persons, who contributed the original parts that were used as patterns to make lost wax castings. If I remember correctly, in exchange for making a part, the person received several (lost wax cast) copies of the part.

The complete kit for the 2-8-4 locomotives sold for $100, which even at the time was a remarkably low price considering how well-detailed the parts were compared to the HO scale brass models of that era. Many of the patterns produced in this collective effort are apparently still around today, and are either separately or as part of various "kits" offered for sale.

One of the primary reasons this project succeeded was due to the efforts of an S Scale magazine that supported the concept, promoting it in nearly every issue. I remember reading the magazine's articles over the period of several years, that highlighted the new parts that had become available that month, and looking at photos of the parts produced and example of various steam locomotive "kit bashed" used the parts that represented a wide variety of prototypes. All of that helped, as did the willingness of a number of talented people to join together in a "common effort".

 

[mjolnir]

... <snippage> ... [N3V has] AFAIK only ONE resident content creator named Rob, an excellent creator. <more snippage> ...

I think you are overlooking Zec.

ns

 

[martinvk]

Hello,

I would just like to take a moment to ask this question on behalf of many other aspiring content creators. Remember, back in the Elder days, where many could group together to produce one large result, better than all other smaller results combined? Neither do I...., Ron

An admirable idea BUT...
As several have also said, not as practical as it might seem. Just the coordination required to keep everyone on the same track, so to speak, would be a full time job. And that's assuming everyone has all the talent, skill and time to do their part. Which brings the question, why are they not all creating on their own if they are so good?

Back in the olden days, and today too, new content creators would work on a project until they got stuck, then ask here online for help which was and is freely given and then continue until the next question or until their project was complete. That's how I started, ask and learn.

 

[n8phu]

I have to agree with Deane, Vinny, and Dave.

I make what I want, when I want, with no deadlines.

Also, support goes both ways......Perhaps this point is being driven home by the lack of newer content due to the lack of information needed by content creators...

 

[nicky9499]

Here's another perspective on the whole "help each other out" angle. Content creators in Trainz can sometimes be outright caustic in their overzealous "rights" protection, highfalutin "EULAs" and whatnot. The end result is everyone does everything by himself. We already have 5 different models of bogie X but I've to make my own one because nobody's willing to share. You get my point.

Take a leaf from the truck sim modding community. Oh, you need some tires for your new truck? Here take mine and include them in your mod, just credit me. Oh, you need some transmission ratios for your new truck's gearbox? Paul's got some real good ratios he got from real world units, go ask him he'll be glad to share. So we don't waste time creating things that are already in Trainz. This is an attitude the Trainz community could really do with. So create your own locomotives or rolling stock or whatever. But when you need something that's already been done (couplers, trucks, parts), you shouldn't have to waste time on double efforts.

Essentially, all the content creators are one big guild.

 

[narrowgauge]

nick9499

I think you are a little off the track. You cite bogies as an example. You are wrong. Above all else, bogies are the most shared items via the DLS. If you are thinking of things like couplers, it becomes more complex, something made in GMax is no use to a modeller working in Blender. I have asked for couplers in the past and never been refused.

You also forget that nearly every Trainz model is a one-off so commonality/usability between individual components is unlikely.

The DLS is probably the best sharing system going, if you consider the complexities of the alternatives.

Peter

 

[Vern]

Speaking from my experience, most of my route building is done as a lone wolf. In effect - N3V snatching aside - the DLS is kind of a content creators' guild where the route builder can call it up and usually find something they want.

I have worked as part of a group twice - both commercial projects for MSTS. It wasn't a bad experience but while the motivation to keep going was getting paid at the end it didn't stop little squabbles or differences in creative opinion getting in the way. At least one of the people who subsequently joined the group was a bit of a prima-donna and started throwing his weight around and trying to influence the person in charge, even though I was lead builder on the project.

So far as freeware is concerned, as said I like to work alone though that doesn't preclude a loose association with artists etc. who might be willing to help with asset creation. Another factor is that once you start working as a group, it becomes much harder to drop a particular project in favour of something else which would be a huge disappointment for those helping you.

 

[EverTrainz]

Excellent points, everyone, as I know that many people don't want to oblige to their hobby. But, as stated by Nicky, we want to be in solitude, protection of our content. We don't exactly trust each other that much, per se. To those who said that they don't wish to collaborate, keep in mind that the whole this idea revolves around being independent and dependent simultaneously.

The 'assembly line' was just an idea. I mostly meant that people would group together to support each other, and should a problem arise, the mesh, script, etc... could be passed on to another member, knowing that it is in safe hands. But the only problem here is time.

I make what I want, when I want, with no deadlines.

This shows how badly people want to avoid turning an enjoyable hobby into work. If a member finds his group's model to be daunting, he could drop out, right? Not set in stone, not written, no contracts, but just for plain enjoyment. If only we could learn to be patient for people to finish, on their own schedule, we'd bode well as a community.

 

[Zeldaboy14]

"something made in GMax is no use to a modeller working in Blender."

That's where you are somewhat wrong. If you have the right tools and programs, you can convert exported gmax files to .obj, and use them in blender. It's a common thing I've learned while being part of the RCW, as dragon makes his loco's, sometimes he wants me to finalize them in blender for reasons like lowering poly count and such.

 

[ATSF854]

I make what I want, when I want, with no deadlines.

I just want to know, who here even works on strict deadlines? I have almost never seen it.

This shows how badly people want to avoid turning an enjoyable hobby into work. If a member finds his group's model to be daunting, he could drop out, right? Not set in stone, not written, no contracts, but just for plain enjoyment. If only we could learn to be patient for people to finish, on their own schedule, we'd bode well as a community.

as far as i know, nobody in the trainz community (with the exception of a few i haven't talked to personally) make trainz content strictly as work. I mean it can be profitable and you could do it to help earn a living, but it's hardly "work" if you are doing it as a hobby. Which is what trainz is, a hobby. There aren't any contracts, and nobody is forcing you to finish anything, ever.

 

[Vern]

Well you kind of set yourself a timescale and milestones when starting any project, in the case of a route my general rule of thumb is around a month per 20 miles or so of linear length. This is particularly key to avoiding inertia or distraction or even getting over ambitious. The latter is particularly important for route builders as few prototypes are closed circuits and all too easy with the aid of Transdem to find the little 12 mile branch line has turned into a 50 mile behemoth after thinking, "I'll just add a bit of the main line either side."

It is important to remember it is a hobby and if you start getting sick of the sight of it, take a break - do some gardening or decorating or watch all five seasons of Babylon 5 then go back to it. However not so easy to do that if you have contributors or partners on your back asking why work has paused.

 

[martinvk]

Here's another perspective ...We already have 5 different models of bogie X but I've to make my own one because nobody's willing to share. You get my point.... .

Actually, when you think about it, the DLS is one big sharing box for parts. If someone has already made the exact bogie you need, just include it as a reference in your model, no need to create another one. Same for engine specs, sounds, pantographs and any other part that exists as separate kuid. Of course if you want it slightly different you'll have to negotiate with the creator of the part and not everyone is willing to accommodate but that is often because time constraints. This is a hobby after all for the vast majority who would rather spend available time on their own projects.

 

[n8phu]

I just want to know, who here even works on strict deadlines? I have almost never seen it.

I will shoot you some of the gimmie pig emails and PMs I get......

The point is, I refuse to allow this to turn into work. I do my thing when I want to and I am beholding to no one.

My Point still stands.

EDIT: As for the sharing bit.....

I think you would find that a few people and groups do share their stuff and allow others to use the stuff from the DLS..usually as long as you give credit as to who made the original, you are usually good to go.

Its been a few individuals who don't have enough common sense or respect for others that has screwed that up in the past.

 

[Falcus]

@OP
I like the idea of what you're suggesting. But I think many of the responses here speak for themselves.....

Another issue I'd raise, is that of the work that *could* be divvied up, each individual bit of it has gotten so large we already have people working each bit of it as their own specialized areas already. For instance, back in TRS'04, it was too difficult to make a Box, slap the same picture of XYZ Building on it 4x times, find a grainy black texture for the roof, upload it, and have universal love sent your way..... Today though, between night modes, alpha channels, high res texturing and where to obtain them, multifaceted high detail expectations, etc etc, just making buildings for this sim is such an intense process there just doesn't seem to be that many people doing it..... And usually the only ones that are are folk that have already proven themselves on what most here would consider the more interesting tasks such as locomotive/rolling stock creation. Once a creator makes a couple locomotives, thats all people ever want them to make, and often as not from what I've seen what the creators themselves want to make.

Another for instance, highlighting what others here have mentioned. I've been working on a route from the area I live in yea? Awesome right? Well, I'm one of about 6 people working on a map for this area..... Most of us are either essentially working on the same area, or include similar areas in what we want to do. So why don't we work together? Because none of them want to (Bar one, but his primary focus is much further south then most of us). Further, Route Creation is hard to do as a collaborative effort. Really what it comes down to is every change you make on a route makes that route unique and different from every other route out there, and there is no way of sharing those changes real time. Ultimately what you end up with is one master route, on one computer, where generally only one person can work on it at a time. So even if the 6 of us collaborated, and 1 of us was going to actually build the route, who would it be? What are the other 5 going to do? Ok, a few could do research... Maybe a couple could learn making buildings? But those tasks aren't what drew any of us here.... And so far of those I've asked, only 2 have gotten into content creation, and entirely for their own ends without a care or thought to what anyone else could use or want (And thats not a complaint, just an observation).

So again, I like the idea, but I'm at a loss as to how to organize such an effort or keep it moving without an outside organization of folks with dedicated talents and focus varied enough to cover the different tasks that would be most beneficial to whatever task we're trying to accomplish here.....

-Falcus

 

[martinvk]

@Falcus, that sounds just how Toronto Rail Lands was made for TRS2006. One worked on the map placing track,another few made objects, while another did research.