shaneturner12
Tutorial Creator
post removed as no longer relevant
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A humble request for the staff to rethink how they handled the situation
- Thread starter jadebullet
- Start date
jadebullet
might be back?
Well it is good that the user in question has been banned. Quite frankly, said banning probably should have come sooner based on the timeline given. Quite frankly, it is still quite apparent that there was a breakdown in moderation that resulted in the forums users themselves having to escalate things to a level where moderation would actually be taken. I don't know why this happened, but it shouldn't have happened. Quite frankly, I am surprised that it happened because the moderation on this forum has been pretty good about keeping things civil in the past, without going overboard and ruling with an iron fist. With how many moderators there are, and the reporting function, this should have been dealt with at the start. As such, it worries me that there may be some truth to the accusations of favoritism, just my opinion though. The fact that things escalated to the point where an outside authority had to potentially be contacted is pretty sad for an official forum. The further handling of the situation misses the point entirely and has made the sim community here, as well as the company look bad. It has also pushed existing customers away from the product as well as potential new cusrtomers.
As for me being a moderator, I am too biased to take a neutral view in certain situations so I politely decline from volunteering.
As for me being a moderator, I am too biased to take a neutral view in certain situations so I politely decline from volunteering.
amigacooke
Well-known member
The modern disease, everyone wants to criticise, no-one wants to take responsibility, always the fault of somebody else.
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What about you then, good sir? Your pot looks shiny enough.
amigacooke
Well-known member
amigacooke
Well-known member
Ah but there's the rub, opinions differ on what's right.
jadebullet
might be back?
Actually, I am taking responsibility. I know that I could potentially have issues with remaining impartial in certain scenarios, so I wouldn't be a good moderator. That doesn't change the fact that there was an obvious breakdown in moderation that resulted in a bad situation. Then it was further made worse by an action taken that solves nothing.
Also, I urge you to be careful. While your post would have been fine before, it technically could be viewed as not only a criticism of me and my decision not to become a moderator, but also a personal attack under the new CoC. Not that I care or anything.
Which brings me to the other reason I don't want to be a mod. The new CoC opens up the community for petty reporting over stupid "he disagreed with me" bullsh*t, which adds more crap to the pile that the mods have to deal with.
Also, I urge you to be careful. While your post would have been fine before, it technically could be viewed as not only a criticism of me and my decision not to become a moderator, but also a personal attack under the new CoC. Not that I care or anything.
Which brings me to the other reason I don't want to be a mod. The new CoC opens up the community for petty reporting over stupid "he disagreed with me" bullsh*t, which adds more crap to the pile that the mods have to deal with.
jadebullet
might be back?
For further illustration, I give this example of why the way the situation was treated is bad.
You have a town. One day a member of the town begins to go around and punch people in the face that he disagrees with. People go to the police but nothing is done about it. Said town member had recently donated a bunch of money to the construction of city hall, so people are suspicious. The man continues to punch people, so a group of people form to oppose him, since if he is above the rules, why aren't they. This group also threatens to call the governor. Hearing this, the mayor decrees that everyone in town has to spend two days in jail so that the laws can be changed. When the town gets out of jail they discover that the new rules are basically martial law and you can't even have opposing opinions.
You have a town. One day a member of the town begins to go around and punch people in the face that he disagrees with. People go to the police but nothing is done about it. Said town member had recently donated a bunch of money to the construction of city hall, so people are suspicious. The man continues to punch people, so a group of people form to oppose him, since if he is above the rules, why aren't they. This group also threatens to call the governor. Hearing this, the mayor decrees that everyone in town has to spend two days in jail so that the laws can be changed. When the town gets out of jail they discover that the new rules are basically martial law and you can't even have opposing opinions.
I think the situation that kicked off this incident could have naturally diffused itself if N3V didn't make one fatal mistake. Tony, in what I am sure was a well intended gesture came to the person in question's defense using the reasoning that he was not a native English speaker. His posting history showed enough of a command of the language to hurl abuse and insults. Also using the person's status as a content provider and KS backer as some sort of mitigator did not help matters.
jadebullet
might be back?
Yeah... That's really bad and pretty damning. Quite frankly that goes beyond bad moderation, but bad company PR management. It's no wonder people were bringing up favoritism and the Kickstarter backer status if the CEO of the company was defending the guys actions. I personally don't feel empowered to give more money to n3v because of this situation, and I am one of the people who doesn't have much of an issue with Tane, probably because I have been through several trainz edition before so my expectations weren't too high. Basically it is another trainz with a few improvements. At least they didn't break trees this time, but the new content manager blows.
But, because of sh*t like this i have lost consumer confidence in the company, and quite frankly, n3v is just lucky there isn't an alternative train sim that isn't good.
But, because of sh*t like this i have lost consumer confidence in the company, and quite frankly, n3v is just lucky there isn't an alternative train sim that isn't good.
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So what exactly is the purpose of the CoC then?
amigacooke
Well-known member
I take your personal attack and raise you with hidden swearing (not very) and commenting on moderation decisions.
This is a fun game
Being a content provider never helped me much in disagreements with N3V (or Auran before that). I don't believe that's ever taken into consideration.
jadebullet
might be back?
Isn't it though. Really though, I do hope that you don't feel like my comment was anything more than tongue and cheek as well as making a point about the current stricter CoC guidelines.
Which, btw, seem kinda pointless since if you make content, paid money, and speak English decently, but not have it as your first language, the CoC apparently won't be enforced as per CEO decree. Funny, I must have missed that Kickstarter backer package. Shame. I would have pledged my tenbux for some CEO backed dickery.
And once again, I don't blame the moderators, because it looks like there might have been more going on behind the scenes based on Tony's defending post. Gotta say it is kinda dickish of him to scold the entire forum and make us think about what we have done, when he was defending, and not taking action against the problem in the first place.
Which, btw, seem kinda pointless since if you make content, paid money, and speak English decently, but not have it as your first language, the CoC apparently won't be enforced as per CEO decree. Funny, I must have missed that Kickstarter backer package. Shame. I would have pledged my tenbux for some CEO backed dickery.
And once again, I don't blame the moderators, because it looks like there might have been more going on behind the scenes based on Tony's defending post. Gotta say it is kinda dickish of him to scold the entire forum and make us think about what we have done, when he was defending, and not taking action against the problem in the first place.
Hi everybody.
Jadebullet, great analogy there at #72 of this thread which I think was brought forward on the back of my posting at #58 of this thread. In that posting I stated that mistakes had been made by the N3V management but I believe that the decision to close the forums, rewrite the code of conduct and then reopen the forums was a sound and professional decision by Tony Hiliam.
I would further concur with your criticism of the N3V management over the way they had handled matters with regard to their customers on this forum over a much longer period of time. However, as I stated a member of the forum on Saturday, 14 August was (rightly in my opinion) looking to provoke a reaction by the management which may well have escalated the problems within this forum and its members to an outside body for judgement.
Therefore, two matters then have to be brought into consideration in my humble opinion. If the alleged protection of one particular forum member in regard to severe posting infractions had brought about or could have brought about a situation where that member would be treated differently despite the code of conduct than another member carrying out the same severe infractions, then there would be little any member can do but look to an outside body for resolution
However, if the company management recognise that an injustice has occurred (even of its own making) in the treatment of one forum member with regard to another and is prepared to redress that situation then that can be considered a reasonable and professional outcome.
In my experience, when any situation escalates outside of the control of an organisation or company management, no one ever knows where it may then end. On this forum there are many older retired members where Trainz is more than a hobby it can become almost a way of life due to the mobility problems etc. Along with them there are the bulk of members like myself on returning from work of an evening just like to spend an hour or two relaxing building routes in a hobby that means so much to us.
In the foregoing, would the vast majority of the above members wish to put their hobbies at risk when a resolution of the situation was brought about without the need to refer the matter to any outside body. Many forum members may feel that the closure of the forums was an injustice to them and an unsatisfactory managerial experience.
However, the resolve to correct the situation came from within the forum and the resolution was accomplished internally within the organisation by management action. As stated in my experience all problems are always far better resolved from within any body or organisation when contained within it.
The above is why I stated that I believe that Tony Hiliam acted in a sound professional manner once confronted with the situation that arose very quickly on Saturday. In the end we still all have our Trainz simulator, we still all have our forum (for better or for worse) and most of all we still all have our hobby which has not been put in jeopardy.
Bill
Jadebullet, great analogy there at #72 of this thread which I think was brought forward on the back of my posting at #58 of this thread. In that posting I stated that mistakes had been made by the N3V management but I believe that the decision to close the forums, rewrite the code of conduct and then reopen the forums was a sound and professional decision by Tony Hiliam.
I would further concur with your criticism of the N3V management over the way they had handled matters with regard to their customers on this forum over a much longer period of time. However, as I stated a member of the forum on Saturday, 14 August was (rightly in my opinion) looking to provoke a reaction by the management which may well have escalated the problems within this forum and its members to an outside body for judgement.
Therefore, two matters then have to be brought into consideration in my humble opinion. If the alleged protection of one particular forum member in regard to severe posting infractions had brought about or could have brought about a situation where that member would be treated differently despite the code of conduct than another member carrying out the same severe infractions, then there would be little any member can do but look to an outside body for resolution
However, if the company management recognise that an injustice has occurred (even of its own making) in the treatment of one forum member with regard to another and is prepared to redress that situation then that can be considered a reasonable and professional outcome.
In my experience, when any situation escalates outside of the control of an organisation or company management, no one ever knows where it may then end. On this forum there are many older retired members where Trainz is more than a hobby it can become almost a way of life due to the mobility problems etc. Along with them there are the bulk of members like myself on returning from work of an evening just like to spend an hour or two relaxing building routes in a hobby that means so much to us.
In the foregoing, would the vast majority of the above members wish to put their hobbies at risk when a resolution of the situation was brought about without the need to refer the matter to any outside body. Many forum members may feel that the closure of the forums was an injustice to them and an unsatisfactory managerial experience.
However, the resolve to correct the situation came from within the forum and the resolution was accomplished internally within the organisation by management action. As stated in my experience all problems are always far better resolved from within any body or organisation when contained within it.
The above is why I stated that I believe that Tony Hiliam acted in a sound professional manner once confronted with the situation that arose very quickly on Saturday. In the end we still all have our Trainz simulator, we still all have our forum (for better or for worse) and most of all we still all have our hobby which has not been put in jeopardy.
Bill
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MeowRailroad
CKRail
This is true. At least the forum wasn't permanently shut down. It makes me so concerned how much arguing goes on sometimes.
jadebullet
might be back?
I do agree with you on your points, and they are pretty good point. Really, it shouldn't have gotten to the point that it did, and the situation seems to be exacerbated by Tony, the CEO of the company, openly defending the actions of the troublemaker in the public forum. Quite frankly, it makes his downtime message about us "thinking about what we did" very disingenuous and makes it seem like the entire forum should feel shame about people getting upset when a troublemaking user was allowed to continue to ignore the CoC.
In any case, the public execution approach would have been much better than the blanket ban of all users for 48 hours. This approach is, as its name implies, very publically banning the offending individual and the apologizing for it not happening sooner, as well as apologizing for the defense of him by the CEO. You don't throw out your entire refrigerator just because a piece of cheese gets moldy,you just throw out the piece of cheese. Of course, you probably shouldn't keep the cheese in there because that mold will surely spread.
In any case, the public execution approach would have been much better than the blanket ban of all users for 48 hours. This approach is, as its name implies, very publically banning the offending individual and the apologizing for it not happening sooner, as well as apologizing for the defense of him by the CEO. You don't throw out your entire refrigerator just because a piece of cheese gets moldy,you just throw out the piece of cheese. Of course, you probably shouldn't keep the cheese in there because that mold will surely spread.
cascaderailroad
New member
Not caring anymore
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