Trainz Content Creators, Trainz, and Online Bullying.

Yes, you read the title correctly.

** Warning... the following is an opinion piece written by a cantankerous former Sailor and current student in the school of hard knocks. Plain spoken language follows. No swear words were allowed out of their room for this though.


I sit here a bit stunned and disgusted, having read a list of reasons given by another content creator (who I can only wish I was as good as), who has decided enough is enough, I am done.


While I am sad that this has happened and that is the decision that was made, I FULLY support that decision and can fully understand the reasoning behind it.


I try to wrap my head around the fact that some people think that they can harrass, bully, intimidate, complain, threaten, whatever you want to call it, to make a content creator, especially a FREEWARE content creator, bend to their will.


Complaining, harassment, death threats. Death threats, really? Really?


Well, lets look at the scoreboard.... um, nope, that doesn't seem to be working. In fact, the track record shows that line of thinking leads to one thing, the loss of content creators.


Yes, you read that right, don't poo poo yourself saying that a little pressure is fine and think that it will be ok to continually ask someone when project xyz will be released. It isn't.


Don't like what someone has created because it doesn't measure up to your standards? News flash, it wasn't made to measure up to your standards.


I see a trend here, and it isn't a pretty one. I also have a theory or two, but that is just my suspicious side due to my military training.


So here are a few thought for some of you to ponder:


* What is going to happen when all of the freeware creators have had enough and quit, or go payware?

* There is a big wide world outside that front door. Yep, there really is. That computer also has an off switch. Nothing says anyone has to log in here or create content.

* Content creators have a life. Jobs, families, interests outside of Trainz.

* NO, you can not hide behind that keyboard and act like they biggest bully of all time. You can be found, it happens all the time.

* It is a computer simulation folks, for enjoyment. Quit ruining others enjoyment.

* Added: Also, making excuses once being called out about your violation of Wheaton's law is just stupid. (Oh, I have xxx and can't control myself.) If you can't act like a human being, stay off the keyboard.

* Added: Freeware content creators here NOT paid by N3V to create, they do it out of their love of content creation and this program.


I can hope that this will cause a few people to pause and think bout their actions and hope that things will change for the better, but life has a funny way of proving me wrong. Still, if you don't put it out there you can never hope to change things.

I would hate to think that this isn't just a few bad apples causing problems and that some one or someones would be doing this on purpose.....

Eh, there is that Military training kicking in....


Chris N8PHU

EDIT: N3V staff, if people get out of hand with this, absolutely feel free to lock this thread.

ADDITIONAL: In addition to the above, I think it is time that a few perma-bans be handed out to those who are willfully and flagrantly violating Wheaton's law , the TOS of this site, and having a general lack of respect for others.

n8phu said:

Yes, you read the title correctly.

** Warning... the following is an opinion piece written by a cantankerous former Sailor and current student in the school of hard knocks. Plain spoken language follows. No swear words were allowed out of their room for this though.


I sit here a bit stunned and disgusted, having read a list of reasons given by another content creator (who I can only wish I was as good as), who has decided enough is enough, I am done.


While I am sad that this has happened and that is the decision that was made, I FULLY support that decision and can fully understand the reasoning behind it.


I try to wrap my head around the fact that some people think that they can harrass, bully, intimidate, complain, threaten, whatever you want to call it, to make a content creator, especially a FREEWARE content creator, bend to your will.


Complaining, harassment, death threats. Death threats, really? Really?


Well, lets look at the scoreboard.... um, nope, that doesn't seem to be working. In fact, the track record shows that line of thinking leads to one thing, the loss of content creators.


Yes, you read that right, don't poo poo yourself saying that a little pressure is fine and think that it will be ok to continually ask someone when project xyz will be released. It isn't.


Don't like what someone has created because it doesn't measure up to your standards? News flash, it wasn't made to measure up to your standards.


I see a trend here, and it isn't a pretty one. I also have a theory or two, but that is just my suspicious side due to my military training.


So here are a few thought for some of you to ponder:


* What is going to happen when all of the freeware creators have had enough and quit, or go payware?

* There is a big wide world outside that front door. Yep, there really is. That computer also has an off switch. Nothing says anyone has to log in here or create content.

* Content creators have a life. Jobs, families, interests outside of Trainz.

* NO, you can not hide behind that keyboard and act like they biggest bully of all time. You can be found, it happens all the time.

* It is a computer simulation folks, for enjoyment. Quit ruining others enjoyment.



I can hope that this will cause a few people to pause and think bout their actions and hope that things will change for the better, but life has a funny way of proving me wrong. Still, if you don't put it out there you can never hope to change things.

I would hate to think that this isn't just a few bad apples causing problems and that some one or someones would be doing this on purpose.....

Eh, there is that Military training kicking in....


Chris N8PHU

EDIT: N3V staff, if people get out of hand with this, absolutely feel free to lock this thread.

Click to expand...

I totally agree, it is a shame that people are so mean

Sometimes I really wonder about what goes on inside people's heads. I can understand badgering (that's not the right word, but I'm sticking with it) a payware creator to a certain extent--if I'm gonna shell out my hard-earned cash for something, you better believe I want it to be absolutely perfect and right--but if someone is giving content away free, out of the kindness of their hearts, I daresay it's time to ease off a bit. I try to be neutral in things like this, and I can cite instances where a comment/post meant as constructive critisism have been taken the wrong way (to give the people Chris spoke of the "benefit of the doubt" if you will) but nevertheless, some have simply taken constructive critism too far.

In a way, I can understand it; I'm not shy about being a rivet counter, and half the reason the 2-3 routes I'm working on for release aren't out yet (a year and a half later!) is I'm my own worst enemy--IE I nitpick every little detail about its "Prototypical relevance" and what have you. But pages upon pages of "Is it done yet? Is it done yet?!" and "Can I have that?!?" gets annoying even to mister peanut gallery over here :hehe:

The point of this spiel is this; Patience may be hard to come by, even for me, but good things come to those who wait my friends.

Ignorance and stupidity follow every hobby sadly.

This is why we can't have nice things... quoting hert. (if he reads this)

Anyway, death threats can be reported and of course, your address isn't hidden to the police. It's something we get confused with, we are just typing and whatnot, but we have to realize we are talking to a person. We have to be very careful of what we say and plan everything. You cannot say what you want. Nor will you ever.

If you want it so bad, make it. You can't? Shame. That's how it goes sometimes. I want a C40-8M, SD75I, and GP40-2LW for CN. Do you guys see those coming out next from JR or RRMods? Of course not. They have their plans and they will stick to them. I respect that, and will have to.

Be nice to people and perhaps something might come back. Don't expect anything though. The minute you start expecting good things you will be let down. That's how things work. So I've learned to just take what you got and go on with it. Perfection is impossible and you'll find more happiness if you focus on what you have and what you can grasp... not what you might.

Cheers,
Joshua

Good Morning All
We do take bullying (and similar) very seriously, when we either see it or it is reported to us. We do rely on the community to help us with this, preferably through reporting posts. We do also monitor as many posts as possible (both so as to help prevent bullying, and to be able to assist where needed), however we do still need to rely on the community as well.

However, where emails are involved, there is limited action we can take, being a private medium. However, if you are receiving abusive emails, or being harassed via email, please take this to the relevant authorities (local police, or federal police), who do take online bullying/harassment very seriously. Where PM's are involved, you can report these to us using the 'report PM' button, however due to them being private messages, we may or may not be able to take action.

It should be pointed out that cyber-bullying and cyber-harassment are very serious issues, and are something that we will not tolerate on the forums.

Regards

Unfortunately the minute you decide to be "social" is the minute in which you invite the bullies. I have found that by limiting my social contact to a very small amount, I have avoided this. I also find that by maintaining a self depreciating image, few want to try to lower my self esteem, knowing that it's just not possible!

Hi n8- I have a feeling I might fit in here somewhere!

OK - I have suffered a series of sustained attacks on my web site. My hosts are mystified - there is NOTHING worth 'stealing’ on the site, there is nothing on it that you can't freely download, there are no credit card transactions, there is nothing worth the trouble, but the attacks are sophisticated enough to break a multi-digit alpha/numeric uppercase/lowercase password and username on a near weekly basis and leave a pretty good smokescreen on the attacking IP address.

The attacks have happened in the past (but nowhere near as aggressively) and generally coincide with the release of a new route. I have absolutely no basis in fact to conclude that the attacks are from a disgruntled Trainzer, but it seems likely or at least as likely as anything else.

The other stuff I alluded to in other threads are not really worth the trouble to respond to. I do get an occasional smack for not including some feature or other on a route and somebody did get very upset when I doubled the track on EK to ease AI traffic congestion. That sort of thing I accept as part and parcel of the game. It's the downside of all the thanks I get, and I learned long ago that there is no 'up' without a 'down'.

I have had a death threat over a refusal to make a blank DEM route on request, but that was from an utter loon and it did not worry me in the slightest.

I do currently have another nut repeatedly threatening to use his/her influence to have me banned from the use of DLS content, but that's also laughable.

The 'serious' stuff though does have a causal factor related to Trainz and freeware v payware, but I point blank will not get into a serious discussion about it in the forum (or outside!).

What I will say though is that I utterly abhor the concept of Payware Routes. A routebuilder does nothing but artfully arrange content created by other people. Sure there's a talent to it, and sure some folks do it better than others and sure I do it better than most. But I still only artfully arrange other people's content. There are near enough 1000 assets in the EVWR kuid table and there is no way I could hold my head up with a Payware route unless every one of those creators got a fair cut. Without those 1,000 assets, my route would be nothing and I got every one of those assets from every one of those creators free.

What I will do publicly though is throw down a gauntlet:

If you want to make or release a payware route, that's fine. Just make it better than mine. Because my routes are free and always will be....

Andy

I absolutely DO NOT like people on the forum saying death threats to other people at all. I remember there was somebody on here around a month and a half ago that was saying death threats about and to people over modified freeware and payware and I think that this person needs a perma-ban from the way he/she's acted in the past. It's a game and many people enjoy it. The forums are definitely not a place for people to act like that at all.

Zec Murphy said:

Good Morning All
We do take bullying (and similar) very seriously, when we either see it or it is reported to us. We do rely on the community to help us with this, preferably through reporting posts. We do also monitor as many posts as possible (both so as to help prevent bullying, and to be able to assist where needed), however we do still need to rely on the community as well.

However, where emails are involved, there is limited action we can take, being a private medium. However, if you are receiving abusive emails, or being harassed via email, please take this to the relevant authorities (local police, or federal police), who do take online bullying/harassment very seriously. Where PM's are involved, you can report these to us using the 'report PM' button, however due to them being private messages, we may or may not be able to take action.

It should be pointed out that cyber-bullying and cyber-harassment are very serious issues, and are something that we will not tolerate on the forums.

Regards

Click to expand...

Zec,

Thanks for weighing in, its good to see that in print.

Dermmy said:

Hi n8- I have a feeling I might fit in here somewhere!

OK - I have suffered a series of sustained attacks on my web site. My hosts are mystified - there is NOTHING worth 'stealing’ on the site, there is nothing on it that you can't freely download, there are no credit card transactions, there is nothing worth the trouble, but the attacks are sophisticated enough to break a multi-digit alpha/numeric uppercase/lowercase password and username on a near weekly basis and leave a pretty good smokescreen on the attacking IP address.

The attacks have happened in the past (but nowhere near as aggressively) and generally coincide with the release of a new route. I have absolutely no basis in fact to conclude that the attacks are from a disgruntled Trainzer, but it seems likely or at least as likely as anything else.

The other stuff I alluded to in other threads are not really worth the trouble to respond to. I do get an occasional smack for not including some feature or other on a route and somebody did get very upset when I doubled the track on EK to ease AI traffic congestion. That sort of thing I accept as part and parcel of the game. It's the downside of all the thanks I get, and I learned long ago that there is no 'up' without a 'down'.

I have had a death threat over a refusal to make a blank DEM route on request, but that was from an utter loon and it did not worry me in the slightest.

I do currently have another nut repeatedly threatening to use his/her influence to have me banned from the use of DLS content, but that's also laughable.

The 'serious' stuff though does have a causal factor related to Trainz and freeware v payware, but I point blank will not get into a serious discussion about it in the forum (or outside!).

What I will say though is that I utterly abhor the concept of Payware Routes. A routebuilder does nothing but artfully arrange content created by other people. Sure there's a talent to it, and sure some folks do it better than others and sure I do it better than most. But I still only artfully arrange other people's content. There are near enough 1000 assets in the EVWR kuid table and there is no way I could hold my head up with a Payware route unless every one of those creators got a fair cut. Without those 1,000 assets, my route would be nothing and I got every one of those assets from every one of those creators free.

What I will do publicly though is throw down a gauntlet:

If you want to make or release a payware route, that's fine. Just make it better than mine. Because my routes are free and always will be....

Andy

Click to expand...

Andy,

Good to hear that, don't let the ******* wear you down!

Maybe these people should think of the case in the UK the other day. A teenager made nasty comments about an Olympic diver on Facebook and was arrested by a SWAT team at 2.30 am and hauled off to the cooler. People are sick and tired of these people and so are the lawmakers.
Mike

I fully agree with the OP. It would be easy for any content creator to create objects for their own use only - I'm sure many do. I have made a few items with fantastic support from very knowledgeable modelers on this forum and, because of that, I intend to eventually release them to the DLS but I'm a bit of a rivet-counter myself and I want to make them as perfect as I'm able before I make them available. However, when I do I will make it clear that "What you see is what you get" and unless I become really proficient I will not be taking orders, however sensible suggestions for improvement should always be welcomed.

What I don't like to see in the forum, and I'm sure it causes a lot of the "When will it be ready?" scenarios, is the guy (or gal) who shows a photograph or a very basic mesh and tells the world what (s)he's making. The thread invariably dies due to lack of interest.

While I'm here let me thank all the content creators who share their creations and all the guys with various skills who go out of their way to help others.

Neil

n8phu and andy (dermmy),
Name and shame them, be it forum name or e-mail addy.
They obviously think they are some sort of judge and jury. What they are is just short of shambling pathetic imbeciles who think only of themselves and care about no one else irrespective of the damage they do. Gimme pig springs to mind but that's plain cruel to associate pigs with that breed of creature.
That's my ten pence/cents worth anyway, good luck to you both.

First of all, anyone who "threatens" someone on the forum about a model, freeware or not, should be banned indefinitely from this site. No questions asked. I am unaware of what situation you are talking about in the main post, but it sure as hell does not surprise me. The maturity level of some of the users on this forum is disgraceful. The PM's i receive on a daily basis consist of rude requests and poorly worded demands like: "Hey since you already made something thats being sold, You should make me this and that, and make it for free, don't be greedy!" Ummmmmmmm.......Excuse me??? Where do you get the nerve to just speak to someone like that and expect them to do what you want!!!!

I don't know how many of the users of this game have even a single clue what goes into making ANYTHING for this game, (making the mesh, making textures, mapping the mesh, exporting it, making a config file, testing in trainz, modifying, repeating until complete) it takes days, weeks, months, years! There's a post floating around that asked how old everyone is, I was SHOCKED to see how many users are 10, 11, 12, 13yr olds! As much as that sort of explains some of the lack of maturity being presented in some of the posts (not blaming everyone) there needs to be rules about the maturity of these posts. I was warned by my old modeling partner from 2005 about posting in the payware section, he told me that when you charge for something, EVERY single person will want to be a part of it and voice their opinion and you will go crazy....but you see, thats why I sell my models, if the some users on the forum want to whine and complain and batter my thread with all that, I will take with it a smile, because those that aren't complaining, are waiting patiently for the completion and a chance to purchase my final product and enjoy it forever!

Now when it comes to those badgering freeware threads (*cough* trainz pa K4 *cough*), the users on this forum have to realize, that these people don't have to do jack squat for any of us! They can just make their stuff and enjoy it themselves. But they choose to be generous and share it. Alot people like that may not take MAJOR criticism very well...and when someone has they're feelings hurt, which probably happens ALL the time when the giveme-pigs attack, they bail on the project and turn the computer off. And that's terrible.

So to everyone, please be mindful when posting on this forum, especially when someone is taking their time and effort to make something so you don't have to. Whether it be free or not, be glad someone is doing it. I waited patiently for years for models, but decided I would do it myself. I'm sure plenty of the users of this forum are capably of making plenty.

Just incase...here's the link to gmax, the trainz addon for gmax, and a list of tutorials to make stuff for trainz!
http://www.auran.com/trainz/contentcreation.htm

SteveLerro

Is is possible that the haters could possibly be some parties that are members of more than one train simulator?

I can lay track & signal but as far as painting scenery, I am all thumbs!

I have over one-hundred routes made as DEM's with Topo overlays, however without our Content Creators I'm sure they will never see the web...

backyard said:

Is is possible that the haters could possibly be some parties that are members of more than one train simulator?

Click to expand...

It is a thought.......

I am ALWAYS seeing things like "... you realllly need to create for xxxx simulator...."

backyard said:

Is is possible that the haters could possibly be some parties that are members of more than one train simulator?

.

Click to expand...

Worth considering.

Or how about people who have been banned from this forum and can no longer get on here to create problems or criticise people, think back to a recent now banned poster, blatently using a dodgy copy of Trainz and to certain threats made. I suspect N3V's security is probably fairly tough to crack, however a basic Website belonging to someone you have crossed swords with, is going to probably be easier.

Having said that, I'd add that we all need to man-up and resolve that no matter how many threads are posted about such matters will never make it go away!

When you see a thread contrary to the N3V Code of Conduct, there is an icon beside the link at the lower left side(Blog this Post), a caution sign. Hit it and give an explanation.

You may no stop the thread and/or there is such a thing as over-moderation, however I think it's like I read once on TrainzForums "You need to drink concrete, occasionally."

I is in our best interests to keep this Forum Community as clean as possible so that new members are not given a bad vibe!

n8phu said:

Andy,

Good to hear that, don't let the ******* wear you down!

Click to expand...

"Bastards" is not a bad word.
Definition (according to google): An unpleasant or despicable person.
But I totally agree with this thread and think anyone who makes death threats on the forums should be banned for life. I didn't like the Idea of payware, but once I read your explination, Steve, I really realized why payware is payware and that I really should thank our freeware content creators for what they do. If (once, hopefully) i start making content I'll do freeware, because I would make content mostly for my own use and release it if it was good enough.
I have a question that is sort-of on topic: to avoid badgering creators, If I want to ask if something will be Payware or Freeware, where should I do that?
You are right about there being no such thing as Overmoderation, and people who think our mods overmoderate, are probably members of other forums, because Trainz is one of the nicest forums in the world (I think).

I prefer the word "Dastard"...an evil, mean, sneaking coward...