yep, because i want my route to be available on the DLS as freeware, I had to replace a number of 2016 Tane based aspens which aren't transparent with others that are because these trees are payware and no longer available. I ended up using some birches which aren't native to that part of the country because they look similar and are more solid looking, The old trees were very good at one point, now, not so hot if they are silhouetted against the sky. it now wont look anywhere near as good as it did. I cannot understand why NV3 don't negotiate with creators to update these items so they can continue in game ,surely it would be cheaper to pay them to update then to employ someone to do it.
NV3 whats the future of Trees and shrubs for Trainz?
- Thread starter dangavel
- Start date
yep, because i want my route to be available on the DLS as freeware, I had to replace a number of 2016 Tane based aspens which aren't transparent with others that are because these trees are payware and no longer available. I ended up using some birches which aren't native to that part of the country because they look similar and are more solid looking, The old trees were very good at one point, now, not so hot if they are silhouetted against the sky. it now wont look anywhere near as good as it did. I cannot understand why NV3 don't negotiate with creators to update these items so they can continue in game ,surely it would be cheaper to pay them to update then to employ someone to do it.
FootplatePhil
Trainz Tragic since 2002
I preferred the old gums... they looked more drought weary, less cartoonish, and the colouring of leaves and trunks was much better. I wonder if it would be possible for NV3 to 'plug the hole' that made them all opaque. That would be great! I understand that there are performance advantages to the speed trees (and you've gotta love those foot long gum leaves), but hardware is improving all the time, so it would be nice to have the choice.
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Can't get billboard trees to look any good if they are just crossed planes, jankvis's drop in replacement meshes for billboards with the adjusted normals work well in TANE as used by hminky (Harold) not good in TRS19 though unless you turn the Sun down in Environmental settings to near black, total black kills the shadows. Should work on Harolds updated Trees as well.
Example My TS12 FR route in TRS19 with the Sun set at nearly black, using my billboards which are multi plane twisted affairs not crossed planes.
Can't get billboard trees to look any good if they are just crossed planes, jankvis's drop in replacement meshes for billboards with the adjusted normals work well in TANE as used by hminky (Harold) not good in TRS19 though unless you turn the Sun down in Environmental settings to near black, total black kills the shadows. Should work on Harolds updated Trees as well.
Example My TS12 FR route in TRS19 with the Sun set at nearly black, using my billboards which are multi plane twisted affairs not crossed planes.
I've used Harolds trees where I can , but they aren't the best fit for Colorado and new Mexico when its arid territory. Your TANE bushes are very good ( i've used them as low scrub oaks on the Uintah), but they seem to be getting slightly less solid as each version of TANE is introduced , or am i just imagining they are ?.
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That's been an issue with TANE and TRS19 and I would imagine worse on a Mac due to having to use OpenGL which never has worked well with Trainz when we had the option in Windows.
@dangavel:
I had to replace a number of 2016 Tane based aspens which aren't transparent with others that are because these trees are payware and no longer available. I ended up using some birches which aren't native to that part of the country because they look similar and are more solid looking,
I use the birch mostly in place of aspen. I think you would have to squint to tell the difference. i like to run trains, not design perfect landscapes. But to each his own. Birch are famous for having bark that peels back like paper; aspen bark does not peel. Whereas aspen leaves are perfectly flat, birch leaves are slightly "V" shaped and more elongated than Quaking Aspen leaves.
I had to replace a number of 2016 Tane based aspens which aren't transparent with others that are because these trees are payware and no longer available. I ended up using some birches which aren't native to that part of the country because they look similar and are more solid looking,
I use the birch mostly in place of aspen. I think you would have to squint to tell the difference. i like to run trains, not design perfect landscapes. But to each his own. Birch are famous for having bark that peels back like paper; aspen bark does not peel. Whereas aspen leaves are perfectly flat, birch leaves are slightly "V" shaped and more elongated than Quaking Aspen leaves.
I don't think post processing helps, I have it on the lowest setting in TRS19 as you can't get rid of it any longer.
As I said there are other products, but they don't quite fit the bill for what we need.
X-Frog, by far, as the best looking still models.
http://xfrog.com/
The program its self costs $200 or thereabouts. The tree libraries are extra. These trees are physical models used for architectural rendering and not for on the fly real-time use.
The other is Digital Element.
https://www.digi-element.com/products/
This company has two products that might work, however, they exist as plug-ins for other programs. You need to check with the company to find out if they are compatible with anything else. The underlying technology comes out of their World Builder product.
World Builder Pro has an L-Systems based tree generator which allows for on the fly generation of models that can be saved into libraries. This system allows for cross-breed (yes!) of tree species and the generation of random seed tree sizes, parent-child-sibling relations, densities, and other parameters.
Perhaps N3V could contact this company about a plug-in for Surveyor that would be a wholly-owned license that allows Trainz users to generate their own trees for their routes and for upload to the DLS. This would need some kind of development and of course funding to do so, but it's something for them to consider.
X-Frog, by far, as the best looking still models.
http://xfrog.com/
The program its self costs $200 or thereabouts. The tree libraries are extra. These trees are physical models used for architectural rendering and not for on the fly real-time use.
The other is Digital Element.
https://www.digi-element.com/products/
This company has two products that might work, however, they exist as plug-ins for other programs. You need to check with the company to find out if they are compatible with anything else. The underlying technology comes out of their World Builder product.
World Builder Pro has an L-Systems based tree generator which allows for on the fly generation of models that can be saved into libraries. This system allows for cross-breed (yes!) of tree species and the generation of random seed tree sizes, parent-child-sibling relations, densities, and other parameters.
Perhaps N3V could contact this company about a plug-in for Surveyor that would be a wholly-owned license that allows Trainz users to generate their own trees for their routes and for upload to the DLS. This would need some kind of development and of course funding to do so, but it's something for them to consider.
A very good idea, I find it discouraging that The company hasn't replied in more depth about this topic, there needs to be something that is an alternative to speedtree , that has a relatively simple learning curve which can be used by amateurs.
They won't work either, not for games. There is a similar program to SpeedTree that also does animated trees with lod etc and is just about as expensive, I forget what it's called for the moment, everything that's free I've tried and non come anywhere near SpeedTree.
There was a freeware program called Tree(d) which does work for things like small trees and bushes however it seems to have vanished, got it here somewhere, only exports as obj though so needs importing in Blender Max etc
Pretty full list of available "tree" options here with their limitations http://vterrain.org/Plants/plantsw.html list looks a bit dated though.
Treeit seems to have improved since I last looked at it would you believe 6 years ago! (date I downloaded it) in that it now exports to fbx and has lod http://www.evolved-software.com/treeit/treeit
I think the actual problem is the SpeedTree creators we have tend to make them for their own areas, we don't have for example a UK SpeedTree Creator.
There was a freeware program called Tree(d) which does work for things like small trees and bushes however it seems to have vanished, got it here somewhere, only exports as obj though so needs importing in Blender Max etc
Pretty full list of available "tree" options here with their limitations http://vterrain.org/Plants/plantsw.html list looks a bit dated though.
Treeit seems to have improved since I last looked at it would you believe 6 years ago! (date I downloaded it) in that it now exports to fbx and has lod http://www.evolved-software.com/treeit/treeit
I think the actual problem is the SpeedTree creators we have tend to make them for their own areas, we don't have for example a UK SpeedTree Creator.
Interesting links, thank you.
In some ways we run into the same issue across the pond. The trees we use in-game are pretty generic oaks, birch, etc., but they are not the same as we have in our region. The RMM trees are nice, however, they are Eastern European and Russian and not North American, or western European species. Granted they're all from the northern hemisphere, but not quite the same. The birches, for example, while having the typical white bark with black and brown patches are not small and thin like ours.
The other problem, as we've been discussing, is we are currently stuck with the whims of a third-party company IDV who no longer supports the current version we have of their tree engine. If someone were to make their own trees in V8, they won't work because there is no backwards compatibility, and if N3V should decide to upgrade again when newer technology comes out, we'll be back at square one all over again. IDV's Speed Tree technology, while suited for the computer gaming industry and multimedia, is very version specific. If N3V was like other game developers and didn't allow for a longevity of their product, this wouldn't be an issue.
The answer then is have a built-in tree and plant generator similar to the Clutter-FX, but instead of using fixed objects, the user can easily create their own trees if they wish using a procedural graphics engine. The trees and plants can then be shared, added to libraries, and distributed without the licensing required by a third-party company.
I know this is all air-talk, but it's something that N3V as well as the community should consider and will most likely require some kind of funding to get the project off the ground. I know for sure I'll throw more than a few pennies into the pot to support this kind of project.
In some ways we run into the same issue across the pond. The trees we use in-game are pretty generic oaks, birch, etc., but they are not the same as we have in our region. The RMM trees are nice, however, they are Eastern European and Russian and not North American, or western European species. Granted they're all from the northern hemisphere, but not quite the same. The birches, for example, while having the typical white bark with black and brown patches are not small and thin like ours.
The other problem, as we've been discussing, is we are currently stuck with the whims of a third-party company IDV who no longer supports the current version we have of their tree engine. If someone were to make their own trees in V8, they won't work because there is no backwards compatibility, and if N3V should decide to upgrade again when newer technology comes out, we'll be back at square one all over again. IDV's Speed Tree technology, while suited for the computer gaming industry and multimedia, is very version specific. If N3V was like other game developers and didn't allow for a longevity of their product, this wouldn't be an issue.
The answer then is have a built-in tree and plant generator similar to the Clutter-FX, but instead of using fixed objects, the user can easily create their own trees if they wish using a procedural graphics engine. The trees and plants can then be shared, added to libraries, and distributed without the licensing required by a third-party company.
I know this is all air-talk, but it's something that N3V as well as the community should consider and will most likely require some kind of funding to get the project off the ground. I know for sure I'll throw more than a few pennies into the pot to support this kind of project.
Now that is a very worthwhile suggestion John.
While it would probably require a significant investment in time and effort (and funds) by N3V, it would put the development of tree assets back into the community where, I believe, it should belong. It would also take it out of the control of 3rd party developers such as IDV. Yes, there will be a steep learning curve for Trainz users, but many of us are used to that. I currently know nothing about developing clutter and TurfFX but I have reached a point in my current project where I will have to throw myself, with some trepidation, into the deep end of clutter and TurfFX.
Addendum: A complication I just realised is that TurfFX is an NVidea product, not N3Vs, but I don't know about Clutter (possibly NVidea as well).
While it would probably require a significant investment in time and effort (and funds) by N3V, it would put the development of tree assets back into the community where, I believe, it should belong. It would also take it out of the control of 3rd party developers such as IDV. Yes, there will be a steep learning curve for Trainz users, but many of us are used to that. I currently know nothing about developing clutter and TurfFX but I have reached a point in my current project where I will have to throw myself, with some trepidation, into the deep end of clutter and TurfFX.
Addendum: A complication I just realised is that TurfFX is an NVidea product, not N3Vs, but I don't know about Clutter (possibly NVidea as well).
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Great idea ! If it were available, I'd invest time in creating vegetation and share it.
......and additionally it doesn't work for Macs , ideally, they really need to get something that is cross platform.however its a good idea but from what Tony said, he really wants the users to take steps to rectify the situation ......
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In the same vein but not necessarily the same, although that would work. From what I've read, the ClutterFX technology works with AMD cards now, but still doesn't work for the Mac yet.
I agree it would take both of those things to make it work, but isn't that the case with a lot of good things!
fant_autentico
Well-known member
I didn't know the history of speedtrees and I really think Dangavel is right and also John, aka Jcitron, when he says that trees are missing for western Europe. For example, there are no good (non-wild) cultivated fruit trees such as olive, orange and lemon trees, almond trees, etc. Some time ago I created some multifaceted trees with a number of bearable polys without lod, placing 2 lod would be good for performance and I also have some similar bushes. It could be said that they are in beta phase and I have thought to send them to two colleagues here in the forum so that they can see and tell me the pros and cons they find.
On seasonal issues, during the isolation of the pandemic I have developed a comprehensive system, I could say. I have called it TSS or "total seasonal system"; It is not a software but the development of an idea, it is laborious but the results are very good and it can certainly be an improvement for Trainz fans.
Next week I will introduce you.
Regards, Javier
On seasonal issues, during the isolation of the pandemic I have developed a comprehensive system, I could say. I have called it TSS or "total seasonal system"; It is not a software but the development of an idea, it is laborious but the results are very good and it can certainly be an improvement for Trainz fans.
Next week I will introduce you.
Regards, Javier
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Tony_Hilliam
Trainz Plus - enjoy Trainz from just 20 cents a da
None that you really want to hear. If we concentrate on trees, we'll be accused of being a "vegetation simulation", and we certainly won't be working on other things that people are wanting.
So let's try and narrow down the exact issue.
Currently for TANE and TRS19 there are well over 1,000 different trees and bushes:
520 trees by Auran
756 x "st_rmm_xxx" trees by rmm
51 x pgtree9_xxx trees by pofig
49 x M:xxx trees by mcguirel
Plus stuff by jankvis, RoysTrainz, Gawpo and others.
Given that variety, it sounds like we need several thousand more options. Then using lots of different speedtrees is going to hurt performance.
If it was easy we'd have done it already. So for now, I'm sorry to say, trees sit below many other TO DO tasks on our list.
If the situation was as great as you portray it Tony we would not be raising concerns. Many of these trees ,grasses and shrubs date back a decade or more . Many are payware or no longer available because game changes have made them obsolete or so transparent they might as well be obsolete. Many are not optimised to work well in game and result in slow frame rates .My main concerns is you no longer seem to have anyone like JVC making trees. Is there anyone in the pipeline who might take over? without his work, and him allowing people to update his creations once they hare no longer available as payware, there really would not be much vegetation out there.
It seems to me one of your biggest advantages ( many free assets ) is slowly being undermined because many of them no longer work very well in game or cannot be easily found anymore ,as external sites that they are hosted on close ,or creators die and their assets cannot be updated. if I were you , I'd spend a bit more time working on this area , as many of us are losing a lot of the enjoyment derived from the hobby as we struggle to make routes that meet our standards or that can be shared on the DLS. I could have had Timber Ridge update online weeks ago if i hadn't had to struggle to get vegetation to use in its creation. I'm seriously thinking about not bothering to get the Uintah route shared on the DLS due to the time consuming uploading process , the endless searching for items on third party sites and the difficulty in getting appropriate vegetation assets on the DLS (that aren't becoming more and more transparent) to make it look good enough for me to want it on there.
Looks like the only option is to commission trees or make them ourselves.
If anyone is interested PM me and perhaps we can do something to fill in the ever widening gaps. If JVC had access to suitable software and possible an advance payment , perhaps he might be persuaded to reenter the fray......