Ok NV3 i'll ask again, any plans regarding vegetation ? .

[dangavel]

I've decided that once a year, I'll pose the question to the NV3 team, do you have ANY plans to provide a way to make trees and vegetation that will look good in game ?

I know you didn't have any a year ago as you told us you did not, but with all this new terrain advances, PBR and other high quality surroundings, don't you think its all going to look pretty jarring if routes are filled with ancient trees and vegetation ? The vast majority of tree and shrub/ grass assets are build 3.5 or less .

As it is, some regions have no vegetation that is suitable to use at all , as the trees that were useful are now transparent or billboards that look pretty awful. You do have Turf fx, but mac users cant see any of that so routes made with this feature look terrible.

As far as I know, no one is now making realistic vegetation assets, so are you just going to let this situation persist, or are you going to do something about it ? if not , can you recommend ANY software we could use to make our own trees that will look good in Trainz that doesn't cost many thousands of bucks ?

 

[pware]

Personally, I would prefer that N3V concentrate on building software not pretty scenery assets - but that is just my opinion.

 

[johnwhelan]

They have enough to do on the software side.

John

 

[Forester1]

So you guys are saying that with all the investment and work they do to make the game better, it is still OK if it looks like crap?

 

[G.M.]

Have to agree with pware and john, let n3v do the basic game and we as community make the assets
There are many very nice trees available, but you have to search/filter and replace on older routes
just make a good picklist of your favorite trees.


Most problematic is the older pofig and spline trees,
never understood why we can't use splines any more for the newer trees.
the alternative is copy/paste a group, in S2 the new scrapbook or place one by one.
greetings GM

 

[JCitron]

I agree with dangavel. I understand that N3V should concentrate on the game engine, and all the new fancy schmancy stuff but the problem is they break what was working before in the name of all the new doodads and crap and leave us with the situation we have now while coming out with something else that will never be finished. I said this before, I feel like Trainz, whatever version it is - pick one, is like a house that's been under renovation and construction since it was purchased. The owners put in a new pool, but never updated the wiring. They have new wallpaper in the parlor, but the roof has leaks. When asked about these, they say the house is a WIP. I know house ownership is like this, but kidding aside, a computer program doesn't have to be a WIP.

There was no reason to break the older billboard trees why? I agree that many looked terrible from the get-go, but many also looked great and worked well. Like much content we need to pick our poison, I mean assets carefully. The problem is we are now stuck with horrible looking billboards that once worked perfectly fine or use picture perfect Speed Trees that never quite look right in a natural setting because they're meant for parks and landscaped gardens. In other gaming worlds, their giant equivalents are used for those ethereal worlds filled with gnomes and dragons. To make matters worse as users we can't even create new trees because the version used in Trainz is no longer supported or available, and if we were to purchase the new version to create trees nothing would work due to the old version.

I know that splines are poor performers and always have been due to their very nature. Grass splines especially can be bad due to the number of coplanar faces, texture mapping, and repeated polygons. They are not perfect but used judiciously and carefully, they can do a great job. The problem with the new procedural grass, besides not being fully compatible across both platforms, is the grass is too perfect. Nowhere, even with the most manicured lawns, in the world is thick straight grass that stands up like soldiers. But, like the billboard trees, we're stuck with grass that looks like cardboard cutouts no matter what we do to hide that, or worse grass that's invisible just like many of the billboard trees.

I know the argument can be made that this is a train simulator and not a world simulator. If this is so, why give us the tools to create "realistic" worlds to operate our trains in?

 

[pitkin]

I agree with dangavel. I understand that N3V should concentrate on the game engine, and all the new fancy schmancy stuff but the problem is they break what was working before in the name of all the new doodads and crap and leave us with the situation we have now while coming out with something else that will never be finished. I said this before, I feel like Trainz, whatever version it is - pick one, is like a house that's been under renovation and construction since it was purchased. The owners put in a new pool, but never updated the wiring. They have new wallpaper in the parlor, but the roof has leaks. When asked about these, they say the house is a WIP. I know house ownership is like this, but kidding aside, a computer program doesn't have to be a WIP.

There was no reason to break the older billboard trees why? I agree that many looked terrible from the get-go, but many also looked great and worked well. Like much content we need to pick our poison, I mean assets carefully. The problem is we are now stuck with horrible looking billboards that once worked perfectly fine or use picture perfect Speed Trees that never quite look right in a natural setting because they're meant for parks and landscaped gardens. In other gaming worlds, their giant equivalents are used for those ethereal worlds filled with gnomes and dragons. To make matters worse as users we can't even create new trees because the version used in Trainz is no longer supported or available, and if we were to purchase the new version to create trees nothing would work due to the old version.

I know that splines are poor performers and always have been due to their very nature. Grass splines especially can be bad due to the number of coplanar faces, texture mapping, and repeated polygons. They are not perfect but used judiciously and carefully, they can do a great job. The problem with the new procedural grass, besides not being fully compatible across both platforms, is the grass is too perfect. Nowhere, even with the most manicured lawns, in the world is thick straight grass that stands up like soldiers. But, like the billboard trees, we're stuck with grass that looks like cardboard cutouts no matter what we do to hide that, or worse grass that's invisible just like many of the billboard trees.

I know the argument can be made that this is a train simulator and not a world simulator. If this is so, why give us the tools to create "realistic" worlds to operate our trains in?

Well put, John. Seems to me this an issue where the first candle in the darkness makes the largest difference. The developers should pick maybe half a dozen representative trees and some grasses and put them out there. You start to walk without having to run a marathon.

 

[Cayden]

[FONT=&quot]The challenge is that their is probably a lot of expertice out there that has never been shared. For example, how did Jan (jankvis) make his excellent vegetation and when he was unable to continue for what ever reason what happened to that expertise? If creators don't share, advancements will be slow. It's one thing to fight fires on the forum, that is, to answer specific questions on immediate issues a creator is having, and quite another to share the more extensive knowledge many creators have. The forum doesn't seem able to do that. What would happen if we were able to put our collective knowledge to the test and see what we could come up with even if it is to only identify the limitations. A quick surfing of the Internet shows that there are several programs that can generate vegetation, many even free or available for a small fee. Blender even has a built in tree generator, Sapling. If some billboards trees are better than others what makes them different?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As a creator I spend a lot of time recreating the wheel, often by laborious reverse engineering of assets on the DLS, which are not ideal because few creators are willing to share their files, e.g., Gmax or Blender.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What is needed is an ongoing sharing of information, what works, what doesn't. And if after the subject has been thoroughly explorered both through discussion and experimentation, what do we need to ask N3V to add to their program so the desired end result can be achieved by content creators?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Cayden[/FONT]

 

[Paul_Bert]

I agree with John's post 6.
I have been routes in TRS2004. Some of current routes were first created in TRS 2004. I still have that version up and running on my computer. On one issue that John raises regarding Bill Board trees. Some looked really good in 2004. I'm not a programmer so I don't know all the issues on why they were not deemed feasible for latter versions. Another irony is that I find the sound in TRS2004 much superior to the sound we have in recent builds. The sound does not drop out when multiple trains are running.

But on the more important issue of completing one version before you launch out on a new version. For example, I now use v 2.0 in surveyor for most of my work. I occasionally go back to the classic version for some work. It has been known for a year that s2.0 needs some additional work to make it a finished interface. There has been much discussion over the past year on several forums on things that need to be refined. Yet most of these have gone unaddressed as work on HD terrain is now underway. It doesn't address any of the short comings of S2.0 but this new HD version will simply perpetuate these issues. Plus, we now lose the ability to to use the classic interface which addressed some of the issues faced in S2.0 (Finding the end points in splines where there are many in one area is just one example where I use it a lot).

I am sure that the HD version will be a wonderful addition to the set of tools we have to build and enhance routes in the future. I hope N3V takes a breather after this update to go back and work on refining the work they have already created. This may be an unfair assessment, but I don't think the program developers spent a lot of time developing and running routes. (Thats not their job). But on the other hand, I think they should listen more carefully to those who do create and run routes, because these are the people who best know the issues and the irritants of the game.

 

[wilts747]

Trainz is as good as its weakest aspect. Whether its the routes, traction, scenery, reliability and so forth, like many things it gets judged on what doesn't work or is perceived not to work, not on what does, unfortunately that's human nature. A review on YouTube of a number of railway simulators marked down TRS19 because fast access to web content was on subscription (i.e. First Class Ticket). Each version of Trainz needs to be a viable and desirable self contained game/simulator, which they are, preferably enhanced by the addition of downloadable routes/assets etc. Rely on the non-contracted good will of others to produce and maintain a portion of future Trainz would be courting disaster and a first class ticket to the job centre.

As for vegetation, I think there are already some very realistic animated trees and bushes available for download from developers such as RMM. Ground textures need to be mixed and combined with the likes of turf effects and ground clutter for the environment being modelled. Hopefully the new displacement mapping for HD terrain will make this easier. I only wish that the Download Station was multi-lingual, as I know I'm missing out on some terrific assets. Peter

 

[dangavel]

I get that some here don't care about vegetation , but I note none of them are making vegetation themselves to fill the ever widening gap that now exists since no one is actively making new trees.
The arguments of "let the community make their own" fall flat if no one is active making new vegetation assets , so can anyone here mention a tree maker who is currently active and who has made new trees within the last three years ?Anyone selling third party trees ? Sgt sapper has made some pbr trees but each one around 100 megs from memory, you can't fill a forest with 100mb trees.

Those of you who are perfectly happy with the present situation, can you direct me to software that will make efficient realistic looking trees in trainz that costs under $ 1000 bucks ? I can make billboard trees myself and have done so , but they look awful in game if close up. If there was any software that I could use to make vegetation in trainz I'd use it, but the last time I talked to anyone about this, no one could come up with anything that I could buy that will work with trainz that was relatively cheap.

nv3 have also provided a basic range of trees , such as the hemlocks which do look reasonable , but eventually these assets will probably go the way of all the other realistic looking trees that we no longer can use and I would like to know how nv3 intend to deal with this issue in the future. I keep on looking for an easy tree creation software but so far I have found nothing that will work for this game that is affordable.

 

[dangavel]

Personally, I would prefer that N3V concentrate on building software not pretty scenery assets - but that is just my opinion.

Turf fx wasn't created by NV3 , and the speedtree software we used to be able to use wasn't either, I was asking what their plans were in this respect , not a demand for them to create software themselves for vegetation creation, you've happily used the pbr and turf fx they have provided you recently , don't you consider that these have enabled you to make "prettier " routes? .

Unfortunately, your routes with Turf FX will appear barren for any Mac users , its not nv3s fault as such , it's apples for being spiteful about nvideas products, but with no new software to create these sort of assets to fill the gap , the future looks bleak for Mac trainz users .btw I no longer use macs to make routes in trainz,but I still try and cater for those users so I am not using turf fx as I've seen how lovely looking routes transform into deserts when they are opening on a Mac as the turf fx disappears.

 

[grazlash]

There are payware and freeware Speedtree alternatives out there, although I have simply searched for them to present here with no thought for load on the game or even if they would be worthwhile. Just some food for thought.
These are a selection of freeware alternatives
Arbaro https://arbaro.sourceforge.net/
ngplant http://ngplant.org/
Powerplant https://sourceforge.net/projects/pplant/
Modular tree blender addon https://github.com/MaximeHerpin/modular_tree
Treeit http://www.evolved-software.com/treeit/treeit
As I have no modelling skills and no wish to learn, being much closer to "end of life" than the beginning, perhaps an experienced modeller could pass judgement on the usefulness of these tools.
cheers
Graeme

 

[Cayden]

There are payware and freeware Speedtree alternatives out there, although I have simply searched for them to present here with no thought for load on the game or even if they would be worthwhile. Just some food for thought.
These are a selection of freeware alternatives
Arbaro https://arbaro.sourceforge.net/
ngplant http://ngplant.org/
Powerplant https://sourceforge.net/projects/pplant/
Modular tree blender addon https://github.com/MaximeHerpin/modular_tree
Treeit http://www.evolved-software.com/treeit/treeit

cheers
Graeme

So, has anyone looked at these programs or several others out there that may have potential?

What would be an acceptable poly count for something up close?

Cayden

 

[pware]

A wide divergence of opinions here, a healthy sign.

The proposition (of N3V creating the new assets) has merit, I will admit. But it will come at a cost.

N3V could devote time, resources and personnel to make new scenery assets that are better suited for each new version of the game and make them in a wide variety of configurations that would suit all the different countries, regions, climates, etc that Trainz covers. But, of course, there would never be enough in some areas (or too many in others) and forum arguments will still ensure.

More time, resources and personnel allocated means, of course, higher costs and that would be passed on to the consumers. If we, the consumers, are happy with that then I am all for it. Going over to a subscription only model would probably provide enough extra cash to cover the costs and we would all be happy. For the record I am a subscriber so it would not worry me.

There are already resources freely available that will allow users to create the new assets themselves. A view that also has merit, but also comes at a cost. Time and lack of expertise being two of the downsides. The small size of the Trainz market is another drawback.

I do have a recent copy of Blender on my system and every now and then I fire it up. I take a look at the confusing array of menus and options, and then I shut it down. Maybe "next year" when I finish this never ending layout.

I have no easy, fast or cheap solution.

 

[dangavel]

There are payware and freeware Speedtree alternatives out there, although I have simply searched for them to present here with no thought for load on the game or even if they would be worthwhile. Just some food for thought.
These are a selection of freeware alternatives
Arbaro https://arbaro.sourceforge.net/
ngplant http://ngplant.org/
Powerplant https://sourceforge.net/projects/pplant/
Modular tree blender addon https://github.com/MaximeHerpin/modular_tree
Treeit http://www.evolved-software.com/treeit/treeit
As I have no modelling skills and no wish to learn, being much closer to "end of life" than the beginning, perhaps an experienced modeller could pass judgement on the usefulness of these tools.
cheers
Graeme

I have discussed the use of these and others about a year ago with the late Malcolm Jenkins and other modellers , their conclusions were , all are too inefficient to use in trainz or too expensive.

 

[dangavel]

So, has anyone looked at these programs or several others out there that may have potential?

What would be an acceptable poly count for something up close?

Cayden

When I talked to Malcolm Jenkins about possibilities last year , the conclusion was, these programs will either make assets that will have huge poly counts and thus unusable or they are too complex for anyone who hasn't got existing 3d skills ( me ) or they are too expensive. From memory, NV3 had a deal where they provided some asset makers with cheaper versions of the speed tree program, this all fell through for some reason.
JVC seemed all set to go making vegetation assets for 2019 and then stopped suddenly .
The fix that he and Harold Minky made to get billboards to look better can still be used, but in certain lighting in 2019, even those billboards look weird.
there is also the issue that any third party trees will not be available on the DLS and thus most people will never use the routes that contain them , and , if the third party goes bust, then the routes they were used in also would have to have them all replaced in the future, it would be much easier if we had a template for certain sorts of trees as we see with the minky items so we could make variations ourselves.

 

[Cayden]

...The small size of the Trainz market is another drawback...I have no easy, fast or cheap solution.

A cheap solution would be if more creators made content for the fun of it and shared their content and experience accordingly. Then the small size of the Trainz market would be of no consequence.

I've made this point in the past. I find it difficult to understand why monetary issues have to drive the hobby so much.

Cayden

 

[johnwhelan]

A cheap solution would be if more creators made content for the fun of it and shared their content and experience accordingly. Then the small size of the Trainz market would be of no consequence.

I've made this point in the past. I find it difficult to understand why monetary issues have to drive the hobby so much.

Cayden

That would be my thoughts as well. I understand some UK hedging is in the works so that might improve things a little.

Cheerio John

 

[pware]

A cheap solution would be if more creators made content for the fun of it and shared their content and experience accordingly. Then the small size of the Trainz market would be of no consequence.

In theory yes, but in practice the vast majority of freeware creators will understandably make content that suits their particular locality or region. The original poster made the valid point that some regions have no suitable vegetation that can be used, perhaps a result of no or very few creators from those regions.

In those cases either very altruistic creators with the time on their hands or payware may be the only solutions.

I've made this point in the past. I find it difficult to understand why monetary issues have to drive the hobby so much.

Unfortunately, that is what drives the hobby world today.