Ok NV3 i'll ask again, any plans regarding vegetation ? .

I have built and operated model railroad layouts for almost 70 years. Model RR layouts are generally somewhat sparse on trees and other vegetation beyond what can be sprinkled on the ground. They also generally have short runs and limited real estate due to physical limitations.

Moving on to Trainz, model RR layouts such as Philskene's industrial routes have limited vegetation due to no room left to put them;). Use of Turfx grasses have enhanced his routes noticably. A seasonal tree here and there adds considerable interest.

Dangavel is modeling prototype routes without boundaries, unlike Trains MRR. These routes simply must have vegetation. Long ruins and hills and mountains, and trackside growth. The task may not have feasible solutions to stay prototypical. Not to mention frame rates. As an aside, I suspect that most that download a route don't know what the prototype flora is anyway. I have lived in Colorado for ages, and no one I have ridden with through the forest can tell a pine from a spruce from a fir. I myself know very few of the hardwood species. IMHO, the best one can do is pick vegetation, especially trees, that "don't look too awful":cool:

Some routes that do need good vegetation should not reflect negatively on the creator.
 
I went through the free add ons for Blender that someone else posted.. I didn't try the fantasy tree generator and the last one, I didn't see anything to install. The other two that requires downloading, did not install for me. That left me with the built in ad on, Sapling Tree Gen.
 
I have built and operated model railroad layouts for almost 70 years. Model RR layouts are generally somewhat sparse on trees and other vegetation beyond what can be sprinkled on the ground. They also generally have short runs and limited real estate due to physical limitations.

Moving on to Trainz, model RR layouts such as Philskene's industrial routes have limited vegetation due to no room left to put them;). Use of Turfx grasses have enhanced his routes noticably. A seasonal tree here and there adds considerable interest.

Dangavel is modeling prototype routes without boundaries, unlike Trains MRR. These routes simply must have vegetation. Long ruins and hills and mountains, and trackside growth. The task may not have feasible solutions to stay prototypical. Not to mention frame rates. As an aside, I suspect that most that download a route don't know what the prototype flora is anyway. I have lived in Colorado for ages, and no one I have ridden with through the forest can tell a pine from a spruce from a fir. I myself know very few of the hardwood species. IMHO, the best one can do is pick vegetation, especially trees, that "don't look too awful":cool:

Some routes that do need good vegetation should not reflect negatively on the creator.

The prototype does make a big difference in the amount and kind of flora we have on our routes as this can vary based on the era the route is depicting. Taking my area as an example, the very thickly forested Southern New England today, wasn't always thickly forested for a period of about 250 years due to farming, construction, and wood burning. What is covered with oaks, birches, and maples today right in my area, was completely bare to the ground right up until the 1930s. The area was farmed heavily even for New England. We had our hedge rows and forested fence and wall lines but there were many, many open pastures in a patchwork quilt type of setup with fallow fields separated by clear pastures for dairy cows and crops. The terrain is much like the Midlands and Cotswold's in the UK and these small farms with the patchwork fields are similar to that.

Pines, various spruce and New England hemlocks covered much of the area along with some large oaks and maples, and still do in some areas such as the tops of hills and around the city reservoir and park. Why only the tops of the hills? The reason is simple because this where it was most difficult to farm or clear the wood for anything else. The sides of our hills, while not mountains by any means, are quite steep, so no farms on top, therefore no lumber cleared, and the trees are left in place. This can be seen quite obviously on Google Earth and from the roads. Sadly, these stands of trees are now disappearing thanks to modern housing development, but these vestiges of the original flora are still around in some locations. What's interesting is the big conifers appear as a ring around the top of the wooded hills with lighter deciduous species such as maples, and oaks surrounding the conifers on the top.

Gone are the huge oaks, beech, and maple trees that once covered the landscape lower down except for those found in parks, and around the older Colonial and some Victorian homes. The rest of the huge trees were turned into furniture, houses, and sadly firewood as they were cleared to make way for the farms.

Overall, most of the once cleared pastures, now turning into housing developments, are covered with new growth forests that are at the most 80 to 90 years old. The trees are far smaller than the old virgin forest trees that once dotted the landscapes, and consist of the smaller species, such as birch, American black cherry, smaller oaks, sugar and swamp maples, alders, chestnut, and many locusts and Ailanthus. These trees are thin and many such as the cherry trees die off early on as the other trees move in. Like the birch, they are temporary trees that come in and start filling in the undergrowth of the forests before the rest of the threes take over.

The problem we have with Speed Trees and relations is they are not only too perfect but are also far too big for the modern times. These trees are great for parks, house lots, but then they're too large for those too, and for grand estates but do not work well for the forests of any area. There's no way unfortunately to get around this very well. The trees with the more natural branches, albeit billboards and flipboards, no longer work well even when used in the distance, and we're stuck filling forests with the Speed Tree monsters.
 
The problem we have with Speed Trees and relations is they are not only too perfect but are also far too big for the modern times. These trees are great for parks, house lots, but then they're too large for those too, and for grand estates but do not work well for the forests of any area. There's no way unfortunately to get around this very well. The trees with the more natural branches, albeit billboards and flipboards, no longer work well even when used in the distance, and we're stuck filling forests with the Speed Tree monsters.

Absolutely correct re size John also the sorts of routes i create are routes that often have just been built,or were only built a few years ago, in which case, there was a huge degree of damage done to the environment, the sides of the track were littered with stumps, dead tree trunks and trees that tilt, and have been cut down, the forest regenerates, but it takes a while and I've found 35metre trees are far too big for me to use, espaically in areasd with low rainfall,. in these cases, i rarely go past 15 metres , most of the time I need trees that are 4 to 10 metres . There are for instance masses of saplings that regenerate near the trackside, there aren't ANY that size on the DLS , I have managed to make EMT'S hemlocks get much smaller, but in most cases, the RMM and other items don't allow changes to be made to them, so I'm stuck with shrubs that wont tilt or allow color or size changes.

Ive had to make compromises a lot unless i make my own trees and have done so for the past few years, the pinyon junipers are all billboards and thus look weird among other better quality trees, Ive used ones that are close, but a lot of the speedtrees we have just look bizarre , often only roughly resembling their prototypes with oversize leaves and widely differing color schemes as well.

We have modellers who don't care much about vegetation at all and thats ok by me, but I happen to be a person who wants to get as close to the real thing as possible, AND put the end result out on the DLS, so I have to use assets that allow changes. My mentors are guys like Jango and Chrisger who don't cut corners or take the easy way out, no one can deny the quality of jangos routes and their authenticity,at one time he also made his own trees but no longer seems to do so, possibly due to changes in the difficulty in creating them , also Ive seen what has happened to a lot of good vegetation resources over the past few years and I foresee a dearth of decent trees in the near future unless some of us get our acts together and create them ourselves. I'm in touch with someone who is experimenting with the blender plugin and hopefully we might see some progress soon , if some people are against that for their own weird reasons, well that's too bad, at least we can say we tried if our attempts don't pan out.
 
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Development tools attract a lot of new customers, especially when they see the span of items a railroad scene offers to their talents and wallets. Graphic development is currently getting a lot of attention. So which offers the best source of revenue - graphics or a time-table?
 
@schweitzerdude, I do use rmm trees and there are a lot of good ones, especially deciduous. But I find the conifers lacking and the ones present have mostly poor form. That may be a lack of good templates for the source, I do not know, maybe well-formed conifers are just not available. A few poorly formed trees looks natural, but when it is ALL you have, it just doesn't look normal.
 
I agree - this is the place to look for realistic speed tree trees and shrubs. Just type RMM in the search window.

Very wide variety. I routinely use them. Some have dead branches which adds to the natural look found in forests or river bottoms. It will take a bit of time finding what you want because the tree name is in Russian written in latin script. But anyone who says they can't find good vegetation on the DLS should look at RMM's trees and shrubs.
I've been using them for years , but they cannot be modified in any way , the shrubs cannot be tilted so they don't work well on steep slopes . These are mainly European trees . You cannot change their size. You can of course mod them to suit your own routes but if you want to put a route on the DLS you can't use them if they have been changed. .
I realise that some people are happy with what they have , fine , stick with those trees , no one is forcing you to make or use any .
I fail to see why so many here are that darned NEGATIVE about this subject, there are very significant gaps in the vegetation collection particularly in convincing USA and Australian trees , it would be nice to fill them , if you aren't interested , don't bother to contribute to this discussion, just leave things as they are .We know nv3 isn't going to do anything significant and we no longer have any realistic looking tree being created, only billboards ,if you are happy with that who am I to say you are wrong, just don't tell me what to do, or tell me I shouldn't point out the current situation that we have many trees that currently look terrible in game and that no one is replacing them
 
I've been using them for years , but they cannot be modified in any way , the shrubs cannot be tilted so they don't work well on steep slopes . These are mainly European trees . You cannot change their size. You can of course mod them to suit your own routes but if you want to put a route on the DLS you can't use them if they have been changed. .
I realise that some people are happy with what they have , fine , stick with those trees , no one is forcing you to make or use any .
I fail to see why so many here are that darned NEGATIVE about this subject, there are very significant gaps in the vegetation collection particularly in convincing USA and Australian trees , it would be nice to fill them , if you aren't interested , don't bother to contribute to this discussion, just leave things as they are .We know nv3 isn't going to do anything significant and we no longer have any realistic looking tree being created, only billboards ,if you are happy with that who am I to say you are wrong, just don't tell me what to do, or tell me I shouldn't point out the current situation that we have many trees that currently look terrible in game and that no one is replacing them

Dan,
I'm trying to create Wiki page tutorial on how to make a Tree using Blender and the free built-in, add-on Sapling Tree Gen. I'm no artist and this is my first wiki page. It is a start, as the best I can say about it.
 
Dan,
I'm trying to create Wiki page tutorial on how to make a Tree using Blender and the free built-in, add-on Sapling Tree Gen. I'm no artist and this is my first wiki page. It is a start, as the best I can say about it.

That is very much appreciated, and that is really all I'm calling for, an investigation as to the possibilities of the software that might allow more of us to make trees .

It seems many of us just take them for granted as well as assuming the ones we have will continue to work in game, in many cases, we've found out they will not last the test of time, and if none of us ever explore new possibilities, we may well find ourselves with a big gap in resources we can use in a few more years time. We are already much reduced in comparison to what WAS around a few years back.

A point in example, McGuirrel made a lot of very good trees, but now most of them don't work in game anymore and they cannot be updated due to the terms of her license , most of JVCS trees still work and can be updated , but most now look pretty ordinary close up , as his work improved, later trees look much better then earlier ones , but sadly then they do not work all that well together . often sets are incomplete, or are very tall , and there are few really small, realistic trees out there to create forests that have been logged or cut down next to the track.

I don't know if its just me, but an awful lot of the vegetation we have looks pretty bad in the current lighting we have in game, at noon, grass is very dark , almost black on one side and bright green on the other. Ive tried to mod many of these old items so they look better in broad daylight and playing with lighting states, , but to little avail.

In TANE you could get away with using billboards, but increasingly the game parameters have expanded and now any of these items that are close to the track really look very ordinary, especially next to pbr textured rolling stock and landscape textures. if you can come up with a tutorial on creating better looking stuff I'd be forever grateful, the guy I am working with is looking into this area as well so we will report back eventually as to what he found was possible.
 
I think that you summed it up fairly well in an earlier post.

... these programs will either make assets that will have huge poly counts and thus unusable or they are too complex for anyone who hasn't got existing 3d skills ( me ) or they are too expensive. From memory, NV3 had a deal where they provided some asset makers with cheaper versions of the speed tree program, this all fell through for some reason.

That reason was because the copyright owner of SpeedTrees changed their license conditions which forced all licensees (such as N3V) to change to a newer SpeedTrees version that made all the previously created versions obsolete and unusable. If I can recall correctly, this occurred at about the same time as the arrival of TRS12 (??). It created a storm of complaints in these forums against N3V, who were completely blameless. But I will add that the newer upgraded SpeedTrees (the ones currently in use) were superior to the earlier version.

From this discussion, and other sources, creating "realistic" trees and vegetation is probably the most difficult of 3D modelling tasks. Trees have a largely random structure and, surprisingly, "random" can be very difficult to create in a visually believable manner. They have no "flat" surfaces like walls and roofs and the textures are rarely uniform, unlike a painted wall. It is therefore not surprising that we have more users creating houses than we have creating vegetation.

The simplest and easiest solution may be in using commercial "tree packages" but they will come at a cost ($$$) and a risk (as shown by SpeedTrees). Alternatively, free programs like Blender, could certainly be used and if they also come with "tree generators" then even better - but the cost here is the skill set required. I suspect that very few people who are interested in running a train simulator and have 3D creation skills will be interested in spending the time and effort in creating vegetation.

My thoughts.
 
Here's an example of one of the rmm trees, unfortunately these are precisely the ones I need to use on my current route as they are quite small and are native to the area, but, when silhouetted against light background, they become semi transparent .... now if others are happy to use these..........
E5DTH2z.png
 
Heres a simple blender tutorial for making trees,its relatively easy, even with my limited 3d knowledge I could make this .
BUT its not related directly to trainz, this is the main issue, finding specific information that relates to our particular niche , it looks good in the tutorial, but it might be unusable in trainz.
This is why I would have thought that NV3 might just investigate this for a few hours to see if we can use the software or not, one would think it would be in their interests to do so......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdTabPJuqdc
 
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Here's an example of one of the rmm trees, unfortunately these are precisely the ones I need to use on my current route as they are quite small and are native to the area, but, when silhouetted against light background, they become semi transparent .... now if others are happy to use these..........

Yes RMM trees are a problem. I was wrong when I recommended them without doing any research. Why?

I downloaded several that I thought looked good and planted them on my route. I saw the problem dangevel mentioned and also LOD distances that are too short.
They look good close up but not further away compared to other speed trees. The big problem with tree LODs is that different creators do LODs differently, so you are riding along, see a forest in the distance, and as you get closer, more trees pop up.

From what I can tell from poking around game creation forums, the day is coming when LODs will be done entirely by the game software. There is a name for this technique but I don't recall it. Until then, I think a solution is to determine which trees, no matter who made them, look the best together at various distances.
 
Yes RMM trees are a problem. I was wrong when I recommended them without doing any research. Why?

I downloaded several that I thought looked good and planted them on my route. I saw the problem dangevel mentioned and also LOD distances that are too short.
They look good close up but not further away compared to other speed trees. The big problem with tree LODs is that different creators do LODs differently, so you are riding along, see a forest in the distance, and as you get closer, more trees pop up.

From what I can tell from poking around game creation forums, the day is coming when LODs will be done entirely by the game software. There is a name for this technique but I don't recall it. Until then, I think a solution is to determine which trees, no matter who made them, look the best together at various distances.

Most of the the RMM's are usable at close range, and they are much better than a lot of other trees on the DLS, but unfortunately certain sorts of pines seem to have this transparency and also a blurriness even when close. As you say they often look like vague blobs at long distance . This issue isn't easily solved , shame JVC and McGuirrel gave up in this area.
 
Just caught up with this thread. I know the game needs to evolve but trees seem to be a particular issue. After transparency became an issue with older billboards, assets like the RMM trees became the essential go to. Is it reasonable to constantly expect asset creators some of whom may have left the scene or sadly passed away, to constantly chase and fix for changes in the core that mangles previously perfectly fine assets?

I was seriously considering finally buying into 22 if the Steam version gets a decent enough discount in the summer sale, but a bit off-putting if stuff which works fine in 19 becomes broken.

I guess for model style routes it's not such a big deal, just the principle that we have to constantly wrestle with this.
 
Just caught up with this thread. I know the game needs to evolve but trees seem to be a particular issue. After transparency became an issue with older billboards, assets like the RMM trees became the essential go to. Is it reasonable to constantly expect asset creators some of whom may have left the scene or sadly passed away, to constantly chase and fix for changes in the core that mangles previously perfectly fine assets?

I was seriously considering finally buying into 22 if the Steam version gets a decent enough discount in the summer sale, but a bit off-putting if stuff which works fine in 19 becomes broken.

I guess for model style routes it's not such a big deal, just the principle that we have to constantly wrestle with this.


The screenshot of the semi transparent rmm trees is actually from SP4 2019, I haven't as yet got round to using 2022. The distance that tree was from the track was only about 500 ft at most .I don't know if they were ok in TANE.
 
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