DVD version

Well of course companies fail and of course we have internet outages - last night I was without power and the internet for 6 hours as the result of a storm cell moving though, others are still waiting for their power to be connected.

How many of us depend on email, social media, search engines and web services (such as weather, news, sports apps, etc) for our day to day existence? How much of your "stuff" is stored on cloud servers? What would happen if Chinese/Russian/CIA hackers brought all of that to a grinding halt? How much work, how many hours would you lose?

N3V could go bankrupt. Facebook, Instagram, Google, etc could all be hit with massive legal class actions and crippling fines and go out of business or start putting up massive paywalls to pay their legal bills and try to keep out the "undesirables".

These are all arguments for never using the Internet. If any of the big Internet companies ever does go under then we would all be "up sh*t creek" (a local expression). When N3V does go under (as RRSignal pointed out, no one is immune from the laws of finance) we will all move on and take our Trainz experiences and knowledge in new directions. The thousands of hours that I put into developing software for the CP/M and MS-DOS operating systems were not wasted when I switched to Windows.

PC_Ace said:

RRSignal - #77 and #79 - I rest my case, m'Lud.

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Thank you, but the correct term is Q.E.D.

Pware, I really depend on very little of it in my personal life. Also, the internet is not the end-all, be-all of human existence that some seem to think it is. It's a tool. Frankly, one that's used completely incorrectly by most. Ironically, my job is to make that tool work a little less wrongly, and pretty much completely contrary to it's original design and purpose. It's my job to make a screwdriver into a bailing bucket.

In fact, my private cloud service suffered an outage yesterday when some fool in Philadelphia pulled out a Cogent fiber instead of his own. Today, the anti-spam service I use suffered a major outage that lasted several hours. Earlier this week, my home internet went out, and less than a day later, Comcast experienced a nation-wide email outage that lasted two days. This wrong tool is also not a terribly reliable one even in a fairly populous metropolitan suburb, and even the big boys have lots of problems.

That said, the night I was without internet at home was quite productive in working on my personal route without the distraction of the internet. Indeed, overall, I can say that even professionally, people might have been more productive before the advent of the internet, when there was no Facebook or espn.com for people to gaff off on when they're supposed to be working.

That's not to say the internet doesn't have its uses. But, life doesn't revolve around it, and I don't have the obsession with it many seem to have, despite it being a critical part of my profession. The world revolved before the internet, and it will continue revolving after it.

As for my thousands of hours of work, I don't need to let it effectively go *poof* with the when N3V ultimately shuts down its DRM server, regardless of when and why it happens. I'll enjoy it on my own with a copy of software that doesn't depend on that kind of planned obsolescence.

PC_Ace said:

Each to their own... that's the beauty of Trainz - there's so much choice available.
P
johnwhelan - As it happens, I create my own content for my own use locally and rarely, if ever, download any other routes or assets from the DLS.
I might purchase additional routes made by 3rd parties infrequently, but only if they are superior to the vast majority of those on offer.
That suits me - but may not suit others.
What I like about TRS19, is that the basic platform and bundled assets provided give me a platform for my own creative expression, which I don't try to inflict on others.

RRSignal - #77 and #79 - I rest my case, m'Lud.

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if you've purchased third party routes and have spent time creating your own assets I'm surprised that you are not bothered about not being able to use your own routes, sessions and assets when the servers fail to validate your installation. This would lead me to believe that you being very computer savvy know how to circumvent the DRM system produced by N3V.

Ken

PC_Ace said:

Why do people need these outdated drink coasters, I wonder?
Cannot think of a single good reason - apart from nostalgia for ancient technologies...
As long as you have a good, steady Internet broadband connection and plenty of backup SSD/ HDD backup space, there's nothing better than the standard digital download.
DRM is a complete non-issue for those who are happy to pay for their non-pirated stuff...

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Basically because NOT everyone has a proper Internet connection, or is unstable.

And for the piracy, Auran has one of the strongest anti-piracy systems, as it forces the users to buy first-hand legal copies of Trainz to participate in the forums and download "toys" from the DLS, as long as you have a serial number. Otherwise you won't have these rights.

I find it strange, all this discussion about "when the N3V DRM servers [permanently] fail" and users are no longer able to use their Trainz routes and creations. To me the very obvious solution is to stop using Trainz right now and avoid all the future pain and frustration. You could also argue that it would have been even better to have never started using Trainz in the first place. Oops, too late!

Its a bit like the argument that you should never get out of bed in the morning because you might get struck by lightning once you step outside your house - and that was a real possibility here 36 hrs ago.

This and other DRM threads have already covered all the possibilities and their consequences (to death IMHO). I don't believe that the vast majority of Trainz users really care and the issue does not seem to have affected N3Vs sales which, according to Tony, are exceeding all expectations. So what is the point of these "doom and gloom" posts?

If they (the anti-DRM posters) are attempting to badger N3V into changing their minds and dropping DRM, then they need to come up with an alternative that will keep the DLC and built in content creators happy. As has been discussed here and in other threads, those creators are the driving force behind DRM - the extra coding and the servers would be a cost burden for N3V that they would be happy to drop if they had something better that everyone, especially the creators, liked. The need to register their copy of Trainz to access the DLS and support is an important but not a sufficient security tool. There are users who refuse to download anything from the DLS and use third party sites only.

So here is a challenge to the anti-DRM posters. Instead of these endless "gloom and doom" posts that really go nowhere except around in circles, come up with viable security alternatives that everyone can be happy with. And I am seriously hoping for something other than the "chirping of crickets" here.

ajrf - Yes - I acknowledged that point in my subsequent post above:

pc_ace:

As I understand it, the DVDs will be great for those who need an installation disk method alternative when their local Internet services are either non-existent or laboriously/ painfully too slow.
And some people like physical, tangible trophies to go up on shelves for displays. I get that.​

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Why would your own routes be unable to be used ? I would think that only server installed DLC, the CM, and the DLS would be affected ?

cascaderailroad said:

Why would your own routes be unable to be used ? I would think that only server installed DLC, the CM, and the DLS would be affected ?

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Because you would not be able to use the game at all after thirty days.

cascaderailroad said:

Why would your own routes be unable to be used ? I would think that only server installed DLC, the CM, and the DLS would be affected ?

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The issue is, and the anti-DRM posters are correct here, that your DRM copy of Trainz needs to "phone home" to the DRM servers once a month. Now I am uncertain of the exact sequence of events or the consequences of one single "failure to connect" here but without that contact your copy of Trainz will eventually cease to work. I do recall (and my recall here may be faulty) that it was stated that a single "failure to connect" will not terminate your copy of Trainz.

In all the years that DRM has been operating in Trainz and with the Internet outages I have had over those years I have never encountered a problem. But of course there are those who are using Trainz, for whatever valid reasons, on computers with no internet access. Obviously with no internet access the DLS (through CM) and DLC would be unavailable.

When I was using the special DRM free version of Trainz the only problems I encountered was when I switched on the Trainz Settings option to connect to the Internet (an option found only in the DRM free version) then I had to wait ... and wait ... until Trainz had verified my very limited list of DLC assets. Since I was using the DLS a great deal it eventually became obvious to me that the DRM free version was more trouble than it was worth so I dropped it.

Maybe this whole thread should be moved to the Suggestion Boxcar. There should be a failsafe if the 'What If' ever happens and the N3V servers fail for whatever reason. IE they go bankrupt for example.

I have no problem with the phone home idea, but that leaves us with a gigantic 'What If'. DRM or no DRM, 30 days and it don't work is a poor business model. I have downloaded and archived all the installation files for all the versions of Trainz that I own (purchased online). I have also downloaded massive amounts of user created content (not belonging to N3V per se). If they fail to work after 30 days, because of no internet access, then I would say that the maker of Trainz, N3V, failed in their licensing agreement with me, and I may have recourse?

Christopher824 said:

Maybe this whole thread should be moved to the Suggestion Boxcar. There should be a failsafe if the 'What If' ever happens and the N3V servers fail for whatever reason. IE they go bankrupt for example.

I have no problem with the phone home idea, but that leaves us with a gigantic 'What If'. DRM or no DRM, 30 days and it don't work is a poor business model. I have downloaded and archived all the installation files for all the versions of Trainz that I own (purchased online). I have also downloaded massive amounts of user created content (not belonging to N3V per se). If they fail to work after 30 days, because of no internet access, then I would say that the maker of Trainz, N3V, failed in their licensing agreement with me, and I may have recourse?

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See post 51 where Tony H says

We will reaffirm out commitment that, in the highly unlikely event of the demise of N3V, we will do our best to provide access to the various Trainz versions that exist at that time. (The reason I don't give a cast iron guarantee is that one of the currently more likely events that would cause this scenario is that all the Trainz team are killed in plane crash for example - that would really kill our development potential!).

Also, I can confirm that there will be at least one more public updaate for TANE and support for TANE will be extended beyond 2019, probably for another year or two.

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Good enough for me however I am not suffering from paranoia over N3V going bust which the same tiny number of people have been predicting for many years. N3V is not Auran which may have folded due to a non Trainz related failed game however Trainz survived and grew.

pware, it's clear that you are deliberately and intentionally trying to confuse the community by conflating the DLC-level DRM system with the whole-game DRM system, even though they are separate.

Again, I (and probably most of those of use who are opposed to DRM, certainly all that I talk to) don't really care all that much about DLC. It's the whole-game DRM, THE ONE THAT WILL ACTUALLY DISABLE THE ENTIRE GAME ITSELF, that is the subject here. That is the version of DRM that will, DISABLE THE ENTIRE GAME. Including OUR OWN CREATIONS, as well as any non-DLC content we've paid for.

Once again, even N3V has made the distinction because T:ANE came with a DRM-FREE VERSION WITHOUT WHOLE-GAME DRM but still had DLC DRM in all versions, and this has been discussed in dozens of past threads.

Frankly, even the content/DLC-level is probably unnecessary, although many if not most of us had long-ago figured out its true purpose: To create a tightly-controlled subscription system. However, DLC-level DRM isn't and hasn't really been the topic of most threads, and since you are clearly trying to conflate the two separate DRM systems, let's leave it out of the discussion.

As for doom-and-gloom, again, please stop deliberately focussing on the "what if N3V goes out of business" aspect. For the umpteenth time, that's only one of many possible things that can go wrong with whole-product DRM. Frankly, the list of companies who are still in business, who turned off their DRM systems and left their customers with worthless, unusable products, is at least as long, and we've cited a number of examples in this thread alone.

pware said:

Its the same everywhere. If you don't like something and feel powerless to stop it then you will drag up any arguments, regardless of their relevance or accuracy, in an attempt to bolster your support. While I understand the anti-DRM point of view (it is a less than perfect copyright protection method but we live in a less than perfect world) I agree that the arguments are often misinformed and often stretch credulity.

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I think one point we have not covered is the expectations of content creators who create meshes etc. Reskins are nice but do not take as much effort as an original mesh created in Blender. I think it is reasonable that someone who spends a great deal of time creating free content should be able to run it. Are they expected to create content for a version that might not run in the future?

Thanks John

clam1952 said:

See post 51 where Tony H says



Good enough for me however I am not suffering from paranoia over N3V going bust which the same tiny number of people have been predicting for many years. N3V is not Auran which may have folded due to a non Trainz related failed game however Trainz survived and grew.

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You are assuming that the internet will always work everywhere and anywhere from this day forward. Again, not a good business plan. The Titanic was unsinkable.... LOL

Christopher824 said:

I have no problem with the phone home idea, but that leaves us with a gigantic 'What If'. DRM or no DRM, 30 days and it don't work is a poor business model.

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It is an area that is poorly explained (mostly rumour, speculation and "the like" in these forums) and poorly documented. I just did a search of the Trainz wiki for "DRM" and it came up blank. I am certain Tony has made some posts on the issue but running a short keyword post search using "DRM" is useless. I eventually did find some references to DRM-free version in the MyTrainz Knowledge Base but nothing that explained how DRM will affect the operation of Trainz. As a result of this lack of information, so I believe, we frequently get these "wildfires" over the issue of DRM and, from my recent searches for DRM, that is also true of the whole copyright issue itself.

What is needed is a clear statement of the facts in a place that everyone can easily access. It won't stop the dislike of DRM or the criticisms of it, but it could go a long way to toning down the speculations.

Christopher824 said:

If they fail to work after 30 days, because of no internet access, then I would say that the maker of Trainz, N3V, failed in their licensing agreement with me, and I may have recourse?

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Probably not. First of all, you'd have to read the EULA, but it's extremely unlikely. Among other things, they say right in the system requirements that an internet connection is needed, so they've covered their behinds. Moreover, this kind of thing has happened many times before. I only know of one example of a company "making things right", and that was when Adobe pulled the plug on their activation servers for their CS2 and CS3 line of products. They made downloads of CS2 available that not require online activation.

However, in most cases, software publishers make no effort whatsoever to make things right, and some (like Corel) deliberately use DRM to obsolete old software.

RRSignal said:

Probably not. First of all, you'd have to read the EULA, but it's extremely unlikely. Among other things, they say right in the system requirements that an internet connection is needed, so they've covered their behinds. Moreover, this kind of thing has happened many times before. I only know of one example of a company "making things right", and that was when Adobe pulled the plug on their activation servers for their CS2 and CS3 line of products. They made downloads of CS2 available that not require online activation.

However, in most cases, software publishers make no effort whatsoever to make things right, and some (like Corel) deliberately use DRM to obsolete old software.

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I probably knew the answer, just wanted someone else to say what what I was thinking. The EULA is always the users demise.

And now TRON comes to mind...

pware said:

It is an area that is poorly explained (mostly rumour, speculation and "the like" in these forums) and poorly documented. I just did a search of the Trainz wiki for "DRM" and it came up blank. I am certain Tony has made some posts on the issue but running a short keyword post search using "DRM" is useless. I eventually did find some references to DRM-free version in the MyTrainz Knowledge Base but nothing that explained how DRM will affect the operation of Trainz. As a result of this lack of information, so I believe, we frequently get these "wildfires" over the issue of DRM and, from my recent searches for DRM, that is also true of the whole copyright issue itself.

What is needed is a clear statement of the facts in a place that everyone can easily access. It won't stop the dislike of DRM or the criticisms of it, but it could go a long way to toning down the speculations.

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Good suggestion. I'm willing to bet that most Trainz users do not realise that DRM will stop the entire game from being used in both TANE and TRS2019 if the servers do not validate their installation. This may be why you have difficulty finding an explanation from N3V.

Ken

KenGreen said:

Good suggestion. I'm willing to bet that most Trainz users do not realise that DRM will stop the entire game from being used in both TANE and TRS2019 if the servers do not validate their installation. This may be why you have difficulty finding an explanation from N3V.

Ken

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It only stops if you cannot log in for 30 days after the last time you logged in, tested here on a DRM'd digital TANE on a disconnected from the Internet PC. The requirement is to login once every 30 days, not every day, obviously the DLS won't work without an internet connection.

See this post from Tony H https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?147852-TRS19-FAQ-Thread&p=1698136#post1698136

Can I play TS19 offline, or do I need an internet connection? (didn't dig thru all the pages here, might have been answered...)
>>
Internet connection is only required to activate the product, then call home once "every month or so".

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