I caved, and I have a few remarks...

I caved... I am not a fan of Early Access titles, at all. Regardless of the company. It allows them to use the 'Well, its EA' excuse. It says you can't finish a product without having more money, so somewhere in dev cycle, something went wrong. Anyways, I caved. I couldn't take TS12 anymore and that hot garbage that it is in 2018. Software code that feels like its still Trainz 2004 and the year 2004. The lag, the skipping, the slow loading, just awful.

So I caved last night on TS19 after getting a little bonus, and despite all my hate for EA, i caved. Boy am I glad I did!

But....

Few things that are just making me SMH..

- If you are selling a product in EA phase, please, for the love of god, actually finish a route, with a little polish. If you want people to dish $70 out (insane btw, this isn't DCS World, This isn't a full sim, its a railroad management game. $70 is absurd for what the current product is, mentally insane.) finish a bloody route. I played Kickstater 2 last night for 2 hrs into wee hours of morning, and I cringed. No rotating textures when laying down ballast, no rotating textures when putting down lots of ground cover. Grass all over mainline tracks, Lighting looks terrible at its default time of day. Including non-PBR locos into the session. It's amateur hour. I was cringing the whole time when going down the line and seeing them just click textures or a big copy and paste job. No rotating textures ANYWHERE. This is Route Making 101 that N3V preaches and every community member. Yet you are selling it in this state? I'd be embarrassed to show off this route. Yet KSC2 is your 'show off' route of new assets... Yikes!

- Content Vault... I caved for the $15 a month to test it out, and also to take the 25% off and use it to buy TS19 (I hope you can do this) and then cancel next month. The vault does not appeal to me at all, and I'm wondering why you are putting FREEWARE into a PAID CONTENT VAULT. I cringed again when I went to go pick my 5.... Why in gods earth are you offering CR SD60 as PAYWARE in a pick list, when its free off JR.... The BNSF SD70MAC H3, is also Freeware.....The ECML route...is previous T:ANE... why is this on content vault for a price... Shouldn't TS19 owners be getting T:ANE routes anyway for free, some downloaded when I first booted up TS19. (Also can i delete those? I could care less for anything UK and all it does is just fill up HDD space and useless assets). Your prices in the vault are higher MSRP then you even sell for. Example: NS SD60 Vet unit, is $12.99 yet in vault you make it seem higher like you getting a deal.... its listed as $15.99 crossed out.

- It says I own T:ANE Dlx now, where are the Dlx routes? Seems you give us the bonus routes upon login, but what about the DLX ones, are these later?

I didn't even select anything because nothing is worth even for free. Why would i go and pick old assets from T:ANE and have to go in and re-do all to bring up to TS19 standards. I thank you for the content, but with a big leap as TS19 is from TS12 and I skipped T:ANE, that be like buying a Tesla and keeping it in garage and only driving the 98' Honda Civic... But that could just be me and a personal thing IMHO.


Overall, easily 7/10 for TS19, blown away and how much TS12 looks like a hot steaming pile of garbage compared to 19.

It loses 3 points easily for the $70 price tag. I know that's gonna get lowered after Early Access, I'd bet $100 on it. $70 is too high for this, its not a full blown sim. You also justify the $70 by including a 90 Day FCT, take that out for 30 and charge $60. Kinda shady of ya N3V. Then $15 a month, this isn't an MMO. Only way this is even slightly justified is, if you pump out new content monthly. And no, Content Vault does not count as 'content' IMHO when the new standards for TS19 are higher. 14 day preview and early access to Trainz feature that everyone else gets is not a selling point. I'd love to see the internal stats and see how many monthly subs you are actually keeping, vs how many just are using it to test TS19 and then go nah. Again, then you see $70 and almost want to go nah too. Especially after what I saw in KSC2... BIG YIKES! But the upgrade alone from TS12 to 19... is how you sold me. T:ANE to me now just looks like a sad bandaid fix of a game of TS12. TS19 actually looks like we got something new here, and thank you! Despite my concerns and negative points!

Cheers

The marketing of the new product does need a bit more thought. I said shortly after using TS1,9 with all the flashing trees, that $70 was not purchasing value. Considerable cash was used to adapt to the new graphics system. That needed a recovery path. I have my own assessment of the value received. I may file my taxes this year with a deduction for $30 of charitable giving.

Most of us who caved and paid the $70 (£55 GBP) did so after the initial reviews which were still quite favourable and it was only after a bit of extended play the warts started to come through, like the massive issue with lighting and shaders on older assets.

N3V reversed the trend with their early access policy. Normally you get the game dirt cheap at the start and the later you buy in, the more it costs until the full release RRP is reached. As you say kirbe, N3V probably do it the other way round and I do honestly wish I'd waited for it to hit Steam where it almost certainly won't cost more than $50 or £40. There is much to like about TRS2019, but not $70 worth. The recycling of really ancient content into "new" is particularly insidious as we are seeing with Sebino. Nice route, but locos and rolling stock using Trainz CE sounds and cabs is a disgrace - N3V are quick to point out how well TRS2019 is selling (though I bet a few subscriptions are being cancelled or downgraded) so pull out the wad and pay to update your *default* content.

IF only for N3V who always ignore my comments.

Far, far too expensive for what it is - not value for money. I shall be very cross when the price drops and will sulk for at least 5 minutes.

BUT I am not too interested in buying completed routes I am really only interested in building routes of some significance to me with as much accuracy as I can achieve.

Eyesight problems prevent me doing very much myself but I have got much support from the excellent, kind and supportive community.

I spent 1,000 years working on TANE in beta which was a painful experience and I really hoped for a mega cost reduction when I moved forward. I was gobsmacked when I eventually worked out what I was required to pay.

N3V, that has left a nasty taste in the mouth'

There are faults in TRS19 but it is a strong enough product to be just about defended.

No point in blathering on about the faults which are many -its all part of the fun to work around them.

Just buy it when you feel the price is right and enjoy. If you just stick to the basics it will entertain you for ever.

Vern said:

Most of us who caved and paid the $70 (£55 GBP) did so after the initial reviews which were still quite favourable and it was only after a bit of extended play the warts started to come through, like the massive issue with lighting and shaders on older assets.

N3V reversed the trend with their early access policy. Normally you get the game dirt cheap at the start and the later you buy in, the more it costs until the full release RRP is reached. As you say kirbe, N3V probably do it the other way round and I do honestly wish I'd waited for it to hit Steam where it almost certainly won't cost more than $50 or £40. There is much to like about TRS2019, but not $70 worth. The recycling of really ancient content into "new" is particularly insidious as we are seeing with Sebino. Nice route, but locos and rolling stock using Trainz CE sounds and cabs is a disgrace - N3V are quick to point out how well TRS2019 is selling (though I bet a few subscriptions are being cancelled or downgraded) so pull out the wad and pay to update your *default* content.

Click to expand...

Steam is what is making me hold off on the full purchase. I have a very strong feeling as you do it sounds that it will be reduced to $60 on Steam or even $50, without a FCT or only a few day one. Plus I enjoy all my games in one place, and I don't mind the TS19 launcher, but it still 'another' launcher. If N3V stick to Q4 as they say, then that is before Jan 1st in most Q4 terms. I can MAYBE justify another $15 a month til the Steam release. Maybe. But at that point I rather use the 25% off code and get it even cheaper than probably be steam (if it hits $60). Its a tough choice for sure, but we shall see.

gch said:

IF only for N3V who always ignore my comments.

Far, far too expensive for what it is - not value for money. I shall be very cross when the price drops and will sulk for at least 5 minutes.

BUT I am not too interested in buying completed routes I am really only interested in building routes of some significance to me with as much accuracy as I can achieve.


There are faults in TRS19 but it is a strong enough product to be just about defended.


Just buy it when you feel the price is right and enjoy. If you just stick to the basics it will entertain you for ever.

Click to expand...

Same, I know more routes are due up to standards of TS19, but I still can't see it being $70... I also don't care much for completed routes, as I mostly enjoy making my own and merging others to a mega one. Which makes the $70 hurt more. As I am paying for a lot of stuff I just don't give two flying pans about, aka UK stuff, no offense.

SADLY, As you say it has it faults, its Early Access and does feel like a true beta, I will give N3V that. BUT, I my hunch is the community will give them a pass for a few things they shouldn't. Just due to TS19 is so many steps and leaps forward from TS12 and T:ANE that looking back those are such flawed and less superior products compared to TS19. That excuse I feel will go for a while "well, it still better than previous ones...so we suck it up". That even goes for price

Still, love it, and can't even be bothered to load TS12 to get my content over or my routes built. I much rather start ground zero then even work for another 2 secs in 12.

Your comment about textures. Route Making 101 needs updating to Route Making 102 -- "Thou shalt not rotate PBR textures." If you do, you don't get the full 3D effect.

In the comment about textures not being rotated are PBR textures only for close up effect or general use
Look at the mountains in pic in post number 5 in Sebino Lake
the light colours look like they've been printed onto the mountain compared to the other textures

https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?149141-Sebino-Lake-Italy-is-here

Kilrbe3 said:

Still, love it, and can't even be bothered to load TS12 to get my content over or my routes built. I much rather start ground zero then even work for another 2 secs in 12.

Click to expand...

You only have to start Content Manager to export your TS12 stuff

Also, what price do you put on a product that is much better in so many ways? The good news is that it is the support of people like yourself "taking the plunge" that will ensure things will only get better in the future.

If TRS19 is a commerical success, then I'm sure we will be able to reduce the prices in the future.

big_b said:

In the comment about textures not being rotated are PBR textures only for close up effect or general use
Look at the mountains in pic in post number 5 in Sebino Lake
the light colours look like they've been printed onto the mountain compared to the other textures

https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?149141-Sebino-Lake-Italy-is-here

Click to expand...

Pbr textures are a general purpose texture, however, they do lose effectiveness with distance and larger scaling.
As to the price of TRS19, N3V have given several options for payment and even at a flat $95AUD it's cheaper than or comparitive to most of the current games in other genres. But, thats the price, take it or leave it. Whining about it will change nothing and why Methuselah would expect a discount for being a beta tester is beyond me. I too am a beta tester and my expectation of reward was simply a better game. By the way the latest beta is the best yet. Very close to being ready for prime time.
...meanwhile at the Trainz News Network (Trumps most hated source of FAKE NEWZ)...
N3V has hired a professional team of sanders (SWB Partners) to remove the shine off a number of asset types, to keep busy whilst on their gap year. Cricket balls are apparently a specialty! In true Aussie tradition, one will be working while the other two tell him what to do.
cheers
Graeme

philskene said:

Your comment about textures. Route Making 101 needs updating to Route Making 102 -- "Thou shalt not rotate PBR textures." If you do, you don't get the full 3D effect.

Click to expand...

Yikes! I tested that more today in surveyor and uh... PBR is lovely, but my various ways of trying not to see a pattern going alone a road bed was uh, triggering my OCD a bit. That's pretty big IMHO. My eyes see the pattern forming very easy with the correct placement and full use of the PBR... Hmm... Not a fan atm...

Tony_Hilliam said:

You only have to start Content Manager to export your TS12 stuff

Also, what price do you put on a product that is much better in so many ways? The good news is that it is the support of people like yourself "taking the plunge" that will ensure things will only get better in the future.

If TRS19 is a commerical success, then I'm sure we will be able to reduce the prices in the future.

Click to expand...

Not $70 worth Tony. You made leaps and bounds, but not $70 worth when you are now charging more than any other game and the other guy saying there is other trains sim out at $70 price, I'd love to see your links. (dont worry, there is none). It's still Early Access and a few things atm are making me go "nope not 70" I.E. Washed out colors, which seems a big complaint around here, now PBR ground having to not be rotated triggering OCD. Sure you can make pretty graphics, but at the core the game is still Trainz from 2004. You just added various GFX improvements, some great, others eh. Software wise you are at 2018 standards. Trainz 2012 wasn't even close for 2011 standards. Which was just basically 04 code still. With the worst UI/UX possible. Yet I threw countless and countless hrs into route making my area.

I took the plunge to see your product, there is no open beta sounds like anytime at all, so only way to try before buy in 2018 Game Industry standards is buy into Early Access. So I had to. Glad I did to see the difference from 12, but more I been playing, I'm not sure its worth the full 'plunge'. But the UI and UX improvements keep me going "shut up kilr, just be happy" but then I keep remembering "kilr this cost you $15 a month and thats insane" or "kilr this is $70.. thats more than a DCS World Full Fidelity plane module with fully working systems.." Also the fact that 4/6 routes you offering in TS19 is EU/UK, that's another point off for me. I just want the base code and framework upgrades, not paying for routes. Offer something like that for $40 and call me sold. Till then I will support til least Jan 1 with $15 a month, see if the game actually gets some color its very VERY washed out for me, even resetting environment. Certain times of day are just disgusting looking. If Q4 comes and goes and still EA, then I'll drop it and say "GJ kilr, you fell for another Early Access title!"

But at the end once again, I'm still very happy I at least gave $15 to buy a beer or two and to try it. Now question is, do you convince me to drop more money than any other title I've bought... GL. Back to enjoying 19 I know such mixed feelings haha

Kilrbe --

The trick with the PBR textures is a bit like Impressionism. Blobs. Different but complementing colours. Not too much overlapping. Applied firmly as a base. But a light brush over with another texture is permissible.

If you do want to try a layout with full PBR textures, see here:

https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?148885-New-TRS19-layout-the-Phootnote-amp-Fourword





It only requires a few downloads from the Download Station. Very quick to install. Loads in micro-seconds. Compact. Meant to be fun. Not to be taken too seriously. Couple of sessions too (more will follow).

Phil

I have been eyeing your work for quite some time lately, so thank you very much for a quick little tutorial! I totally forgot to get your route after I got 19, you were one of the reasons as I saw it on DLS! I got all hyped up in 19, I forgot to go back to the DLS lol

Will give that a try texture trick a try tomorrow, and also your layout, thank you! How are you tackling the lighting not being so 'white/grey' washed out? I been messing with settings and ToD settings in enviorment so much, yet I can only get solid deep colors at high noon. Any other time, a washout appears and really ruins a scene. Even with NV Digital Vibrant on.

Also finally picked my 5 content for the month.. yeah, its hard to go back and play the T:ANE routes.. TurfFX and grass and the roadbed make me really want to work on a new 19 route ASAP soon as I get a few more assets in. Though I am finding myself sticking to CSX built in only, because those PBR textures are so drooling. DCS:World 2.5 when they gave us PBR as well, made me drool. So much so I can't even use most of my NS locos anymore as the quality is just not there anymore in 19 engine.

Any other time, a washout appears and really ruins a scene

Click to expand...

Are you updating the nodes at these other times?
If you make 12 o'clock look just right, then add another node next to it/. (This will create an almost identical set of parameters).
Now use the move too and move it to 7am.
Now 7a.m. has almost identical settings to midday (except the sun is also lower on the horizon creating longer shadows).

Follow this guide: http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/How_to_Use_Environment_Tools
Ans this tutorial: https://n3vgames.typeform.com/to/y4J2Rl

Washout? Ever tried looking in the direction of the sun (eg west after 3pm). I think it approximates the effect very well. Get out in the real world a bit more.
cheers
Graeme

"How are you tackling the lighting not being so 'white/grey' washed out?"

Suggestion -- download the layout and Session 2.
Jump into Driver.
Go to the top left of the screen - Window Menu / Session Options.
Change the time - morning, noon, evening, and in between.
Does it look OK (it does to me) at all time settings?
Of course, the best lighting effects are early morning and mid afternoon.

If you like it the appearance, exit and go into - Edit Route / Edit Environment. Check to see what the colour dial settings are at all the time points on the clock. And the brightness slider to the right. And the fog setting.
Use this is your route.
Comment -- the dial settings were exactly the ones when I imported the layout from T:ANE where, from memory, they were the default.

Tony -- those dial settings and brightness slider are so damn crude, particularly in instances like this. Having a numeric display would assist enormously.

Phil
_____

Edit --

One comment about applying the PBR textures.

Just like an Impressionist artist I first apply a primer to the canvas. It's the texture that I think will be the most dominant in the particular area. For instance, in yard areas the ballast texture, PBR Gravel 2. In other areas from memory I think it was PBR Mud Dry 1. Close to and under the track use the minimum scale settings for all PBR textures. In other areas generally (but not always) the maximum.

Once the primer is applied add the other textures firmly, full density, no rotation. Then finally some textures can be added as a wipe over, for example, the cobble stone texture.

Once the tress have been positioned, a dob of darkish green underneath helps the overall effect. In general, consider making the spurs and ridges a slightly lighter colour and re-entrants a darker colour (or the opposite, whichever you prefer).

Good luck.

Kilrbe3 said:

Steam is what is making me hold off on the full purchase. I have a very strong feeling as you do it sounds that it will be reduced to $60 on Steam or even $50, without a FCT or only a few day one. Plus I enjoy all my games in one place, and I don't mind the TS19 launcher, but it still 'another' launcher. If N3V stick to Q4 as they say, then that is before Jan 1st in most Q4 terms. I can MAYBE justify another $15 a month til the Steam release. Maybe. But at that point I rather use the 25% off code and get it even cheaper than probably be steam (if it hits $60). Its a tough choice for sure, but we shall see.



Same, I know more routes are due up to standards of TS19, but I still can't see it being $70... I also don't care much for completed routes, as I mostly enjoy making my own and merging others to a mega one. Which makes the $70 hurt more. As I am paying for a lot of stuff I just don't give two flying pans about, aka UK stuff, no offense.

SADLY, As you say it has it faults, its Early Access and does feel like a true beta, I will give N3V that. BUT, I my hunch is the community will give them a pass for a few things they shouldn't. Just due to TS19 is so many steps and leaps forward from TS12 and T:ANE that looking back those are such flawed and less superior products compared to TS19. That excuse I feel will go for a while "well, it still better than previous ones...so we suck it up". That even goes for price

Still, love it, and can't even be bothered to load TS12 to get my content over or my routes built. I much rather start ground zero then even work for another 2 secs in 12.

Click to expand...

For us old timers, Heaven forfend, I'm sorry to say that Ican draw really close paralleis between Microsoft and TRainz. I haven't got the energy to write the full essay but when you look at Windows ME as possibly the worst o/s known to man and with varying degrees of dreadfullness of other systems, it makes you think how in God's name did we survive.

Windows10 is pretty good for me and I am going to pretend/hope that TRS20 will reach that standard

gch said:

I am going to pretend/hope that TRS20 will reach that standard

Click to expand...

You mean to tell me that I will have to buy TS19, and then TS20 too ?

Tony_Hilliam said:

You only have to start Content Manager to export your TS12 stuff

Also, what price do you put on a product that is much better in so many ways? The good news is that it is the support of people like yourself "taking the plunge" that will ensure things will only get better in the future.

If TRS19 is a commerical success, then I'm sure we will be able to reduce the prices in the future.

Click to expand...

Tony,

I can't argue with your fiscal logic.

I don't mind paying "top dollar" to be in at the outset . I find it impossible to wait for prices to come down.

However, I do resent being squeezed and my sense of your price is that I am being squeezed really quite hard.

After what seems like forever working with the beta testing on Tane, I also thought that a modest "team player" discount might have been a possibility.

Apparently not.

I pray for success because I think we are really going somewhere these days and I just can't wait for the next version or the next but one where we get my much desired proper lighting and the magical effect that real ligting has on simulators.

cascaderailroad said:

You mean to tell me that I will have to buy TS19, and then TS20 too ?

Click to expand...

It happened before... TRS2010 was supposed to be an extension pack for TRS2009 and ended up with all the extra bits morphing a fully fledged full price "new" version of the game in its own right.

Of course TRS2010 was probably the best ever incarnation of the programme, relative to its time. So if history was to repeat itself, does that mean TRS2020 could be the best ever Trainz for the subsequent 5 or 6 years?

Vern said:

It happened before... TRS2010 was supposed to be an extension pack for TRS2009 and ended up with all the extra bits morphing a fully fledged full price "new" version of the game in its own right.

Of course TRS2010 was probably the best ever incarnation of the programme, relative to its time. So if history was to repeat itself, does that mean TRS2020 could be the best ever Trainz for the subsequent 5 or 6 years?

Click to expand...

AS they say, you don't have to be a Rocket Scientist to answer that one.

Would I pay a bit more??? Not now UNLESS it was a pretty major change for me.

This might include the infamous twinkly lights and I would pay more for animated objects and people which are needed to bring things to life

I can see that the swashbuckling, epic, spendiferous layouts and scenes are nice but they are only one part of the picture, and a pretty small part at that for me at least.

Ditto the much advertised superb detail on carriages and locos.

Alrighty as far as it goes but I think we have plenty of that now.

I am a big kid at heart and I would love some real lighting, some animation and possible REALLY get excited by snow falling properly and changing the scenery (just like the real World).

Probably all far too difficult to achieve or 5 years down the waiting list.

Come on boys, give me some hope, let me see your passion
a