TANE: Track direction, is it still important?

parsifal300 said:

I am laying double track but as two single tracks laying parallel to each other. The track is TANE Trk Concrete <kuid2:523:19723203:2>.

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That is single track. That you have two tracks alongside each other does not make it double track. For single track you can assume that the track direction is the direction you lay it in - there could be exceptions, but that would be unlikely. To check your direction of track place a track direction marker - it will default to the train direction. Buffers do the same thing. Signals and switches can be configured as left- or right-handed, so are less useful for indicating track direction.

parsifal300 said:

When I get to laying dbl track I assume I should be able to identify its behavior by finding something in its name or config.txt file that states ++ or +-. You mention the way it works had changed for newer multiple track. Can the newer track be determined by Trainz version #?

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That will work if the content creator has followed a sensible naming plan. It can't be relied on. You can check double track by laying a scrap section and placing trackmarks on each track to check which way it has been configured.

There is no easy way to determine whether double track follows the new style or not, other than looking in the config file. Anything above 3.5 should be the new style, but I suspect that it wasn't actually enforced until 4.0.

parsifal300 said:

If a section of single track is pointing in the wrong direction then do all sections that are pointing in the wrong direction need to be deleted before correction will hold? I've attempted to delete a section between two spline points and then re-layed the track in the correct direction just to have the track marker indicate it is still pointing in the wrong direction.

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In my experience laying a new section of track will not affect the direction of existing sections, so each incorrect section would need to be re-layed.. There are cases where the direction of existing track does get changed, but they are very specific to the items involved. Track direction markers are not related to track direction in any way at all other than that track direction determines the default direction for a new track direction marker when it is first placed on the track. I don't know what you are referring to about spline points affecting track direction - I made no comment about that.

parsifal300 said:

3) You mention the correct way to lay multiple track is to use a dummy invisible spline and attach each track to that spline. Then the config file would determine the direction.

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That comment was about creating multiple track, not laying it. You lay multiple track in exactly the same way as you lay single track. But because of the way it was created (if it is the new style) the different tracks in a multiple track asset might have different directions. Obviously, that is not relevant for single track.

philskene said:

"The answer to the question is yes, it's still important."

Nope. It aint. Unfortunately this thread just perpetuates the myth.

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Track direction is important. It determines the default direction for many items placed in Surveyor, including signals, buffers, switches, track direction markers and, of course, traincars.

If I have a westbound yard, I lay all my tracks westward, and versa visa' an eastbound yard ... I just do it because I am obsessive compulsive ... I hate when I press "W" and my train runs in reverse ... I only run AI on long distance, from one end of the route, to the other terminus of the route ... I never ask AI to do complicated switching maneuvers

Hi Dan --

OK -- I think, maybe, this discussion actually depends on how we want to define "important".

I might be in a minority here, but the side of the track (left vs right) that switches appear when placed in Surveyor is just a minor irritant. It's just a matter of rotating the switch to the desired side. Likewise when spotting locomotives and rolling stock.

But when it comes to rouge AI, I've never noticed any difference. When AI misbehaves the real reasons are much, much deeper (and sometimes almost insoluble).

Phil

philskene said:

Hi Dan --

OK -- I think, maybe, this discussion actually depends on how we want to define "important".

I might be in a minority here, but the side of the track (left vs right) that switches appear when placed in Surveyor is just a minor irritant. It's just a matter of rotating the switch to the desired side. Likewise when spotting locomotives and rolling stock.

But when it comes to rouge AI, I've never noticed any difference. When AI misbehaves the real reasons are much, much deeper (and sometimes almost insoluble).

Phil

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Yup. I too have never noticed AI doing anything else but being AI and usually the problems are self-inflicted. Over the years of route building, I have learned to anticipate what the AI might do given a particular track layout. In most cases my anticipated track layout is spot on and I've been able to avert odd AI behavior in that spot. Then there are other times, when the all elusive AI do what they want anyway, and in these cases it's due to my own doings like directing the AI to the wrong track mark, or sending then to a track mark they can't get to due to a reversed direction marker.

JCitron said:

Over the years of route building, I have learned to anticipate what the AI might do given a particular track layout. In most cases my anticipated track layout is spot on and I've been able to avert odd AI behavior in that spot.

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AI in general follows the direction controlled by the track attachments, not the track. So if you lay the track the wrong way, and then adjust signals as they are placed, AI will mostly work as expected. But it's not guaranteed - there are some functions that can be used by AI that rely on track direction. That includes certain search functions. That can mean that, for some rules, searching occurs in the track direction rather than the signal direction, and that could create unexpected behaviour when the signals differ from the track. Of course, it's usually not possible to distinguish this behaviour from the many other AI oddities that can occur, so it is difficult to say how often it can occur or the extent to which getting the track direction right helps ensure AI works as expected. It depends on which rules use the methods that rely on track direction, and how relevant those methods are to the AI operation.

But the real importance of track direction is in Surveyor, not AI. Getting the track direction right saves a lot of time and effort in getting the orientation of trackside objects such as signals, switchpoints, buffers, speed signs, catenary and track direction markers right the first time they are placed, and reduces the risk that they flip direction as track is edited.

BuilderBob said:

AI in general follows the direction controlled by the track attachments, not the track. So if you lay the track the wrong way, and then adjust signals as they are placed, AI will mostly work as expected. But it's not guaranteed - there are some functions that can be used by AI that rely on track direction. That includes certain search functions. That can mean that, for some rules, searching occurs in the track direction rather than the signal direction, and that could create unexpected behaviour when the signals differ from the track. Of course, it's usually not possible to distinguish this behaviour from the many other AI oddities that can occur, so it is difficult to say how often it can occur or the extent to which getting the track direction right helps ensure AI works as expected. It depends on which rules use the methods that rely on track direction, and how relevant those methods are to the AI operation.

But the real importance of track direction is in Surveyor, not AI. Getting the track direction right saves a lot of time and effort in getting the orientation of trackside objects such as signals, switchpoints, buffers, speed signs, catenary and track direction markers right the first time they are placed, and reduces the risk that they flip direction as track is edited.

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Maybe I've been lucky, or maybe it's because I use the KISS approach and have never used some of the more complex rules and controls on my AI, such as path-controls for example, to control how my AI operate. I work with track marks and direction markers for 99% of my driver commands and have only resorted to other more complex rules and commands only if needed, and those cases are pretty rare.

Yes, absolutely, having the track laid down in the direction of travel really does make things a lot easier to ensure that everything is on the same playing field to start with, and for placing signals and other track objects. I've done this right from the get-go since I first started using Trainz 14 years ago this month. I found it so much easier even in my early days to lay the track so that the track marks, and other track objects all faced the right way and fell on the proper side of the track as I placed objects. When the track is laid down this way, a stretch of track can be laid down quickly with all the objects in place since less time is spent flipping things around.

That old object flipping which used to occur before doesn't seem to be a problem anymore - perhaps it's just luck in my case, but in the old days that was one awful problem - that and objects moving down the track when a spline point was inserted.

I've laid a lot of track, installed lots of signals, trackmarks, triggers and other track related accessories and I never pay much attention to what direction I am laying the track. I've created many AI commands that do simple running to complicated switching. I have encountered problems with using the correct driver commands in the proper sequence, or not using trackmarks in the proper locations for flawless navigation, but I have never encountered a problem that appeared to be related to track laying direction.

Yes, the direction that track is laid does affect the direction that some assets face when initially installed, but they are easily reversed with a mouse click.

The myth that track can be laid in the wrong direction is exactly that - a myth.

Some people believe in unicorns,mermaids,fairies,dragons,minotaurs,vampires and track direction...But it's still a myth.
And Santa,...awww....No...He will still come on the 24th/25th of december
chooo chooo peace and love people

Regardless of the alleged mythology, can N3V produce a ______ to allow the customer to set track direction. Could it be as simple as placing a new type directional trackmark which would set the direction in the config or wherever it is hidden. Once set, there would be an option to erase all direction markers or retain them as clutter That is of course, if N3V agrees that some conditions make track direction an issue. Some issues cannot be resolved with reality checks, and their time/cost. Simply allow the customer to set the direction post-install should they feel it is needed. Then move on to discuss the next pressing issue.

Dick

I would say this only matters if you want to just place all your trackside objects in the running direction right off the bat and not have to flip their direction. However, I think that the direction a train is placed on the track in Surveyor is determined by the track direction when there is not a direction marker in place. When there is a direction marker in place on the track, the train will face in the direction that the direction marker is pointing. Otherwise, the direction you place track is not important. The AI will change the facing direction of a consist depending on which direction it needs to go to get to its destination.

Dap said:

Yes, the direction that track is laid does affect the direction that some assets face when initially installed, but they are easily reversed with a mouse click.

The myth that track can be laid in the wrong direction is exactly that - a myth.

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If track direction "does affect the direction that some assets face when initially installed", then it is "REAL thing, and is not a "Myth", or "Urban Legend" at all

If one does not care to lay track in the right direction, or take the care to lay things consistently ... Then continue to do so

The earth is flat, The Moon is Swiss cheese. I have been laying track for years and never paid attention to direction and never had a problem, It does not matter the direction of the track until you put a direction marker on it.

JEB114 said:

It does not matter the direction of the track until you put a direction marker on it.

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Track direction does matter. It determines the default direction for many items placed in Surveyor, including signals, buffers, switches, track direction markers and, of course, traincars.

Placing a track direction marker does not change the direction of the track. The two things are not related (other than that the track direction determines the default direction for a track direction marker when it is first placed).

After reading all the opinions, I decided to perform an experiment (its my science background).

On a blank baseboard I laid a straight length of track perpendicular to the western edge, towards the eastern edge.
I then laid an identical length of straight track alongside the first but in the opposite direction.

I placed three different signals, a track buffer, a trackmark and a locomotive on the first track.
I repeated this, with the same items, on the second track.

I edited the radius of the trackmarks to 5m to reduce their visual footprints.

The result is shown below with arrows added in a graphic editor to show the direction of track laying.



The conclusion is obvious but what practical difference this makes, beyond having to flip signals and buffers, and reverse train headings, I do not know. As far as AI was concerned, the track direction made no difference.

pware said:

As far as AI is concerned, the track direction made no difference.

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It's not possible to make a blanket statement such as this. AI is a collection of rules, each one designed to do a specific task. What is correct is that most AI rules do not use track direction as part of the processing because (a) it isn't relevant to what they need to do and (b) there are only a very small number of routines available that use or reveal track direction. Track direction is a Surveyor feature. It is accessible to AI, but it isn't really relevant to it (which was the point made several times already).

So let's get past that the track direction matters to almost nobody on this forum... This is what I have found and have problems with.

As I stated in post #17 of this thread there is a problem with track direction, link to the problem HERE.

Forget the track direction markers, which only show you which way the track is facing, if you rotate them they don't change which way the track is facing...

If i build a route where there are 2 different paths to a destination, and one path has track facing the wrong direction, the AI will always choose the route with the track facing the correct direction.

If I insert some of the XING's or Bridge's with double track, on some Tracks, it will change the track direction of the track you attach it to, for 3 segments. Where before you insert the asset the double track had each track facing opposite directions. After the insert both tracks face the same direction.

What does this mean to most people here? Nothing. What it means to my AI, before I inserted the asset (XING or Bridge), the AI could make it to the destination, after the insert, AI complains, 'Can't find route to destination'. So it must mean something, to some of us. Just saying... If i fix the track before and after the inserted object (see post #17 of this thread), it then can make the destination again. Or am I just imagining this? I did a lot of stuff back in the 60's and 70's so my mind my be corrupted... LOL

Christopher824 said:

If i build a route where there are 2 different paths to a destination, and one path has track facing the wrong direction, the AI will always choose the route with the track facing the correct direction.

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Are the two different paths exactly the same length? Is the AI merely choosing the shorter of the two paths?

Perhaps someone might try an experiment on this as I will be away from my computer for the next 8-9 hours.