why we talking about TS 14 when TS12 still has major problems

[WindWalkr]

I feel that Chris did not make clear why N3V are not financing this project from there own funds. Surely if they believe they can create something truly great the reinvestment capital can be raised, placed into the project development which at its conclusion (being such an awesome piece of software) would undoubtedly sell at a top premium price as forum members and newcomers throughout the world fall over each other to buy it.

Sorry, I thought that was obvious in the context. We don't fund it ourselves because (despite what some people might like to imply) Trainz is not a massive cash-cow and while we are slowly branching out (mobile, mac, etc.) there is still a great disparity between what we could reasonably afford to do by ourselves, and what we can do if the community steps in.

He also advises that N3V will be paying the salaries of all involved during the development of the software. As the forgoing salaries will undoubtedly make up large percentage of the development costs it continues to beg the question, what then will the donations be used for.

You're misunderstanding that point. Consider the following approximation:

* Quantity x Quality = Employees x Time.

If you want to improve quality and/or quantity, you must be willing to either increase the number of employees and/or increase the amount of time that the existing employees are dedicated to the project. Both are expensive. I've never suggested that N3V will (from its existing funds) cover the cost of a revolutionary new project- that's what the Kickstarter is for. What I did say is that N3V will release a new Trainz version with or without the extra funding - but it's also clear that there will be a substantial difference in what you can expect if we have additional resources to deploy.

chris

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.
Once again I would like to thank Chris (Windwalker) for responding to my posting. Basically he advises that the donations will be used to hire new staff for the development of the project or to pay for extra hours worked by the existing staff. Therefore, it is now clear that the donators will be subscribing to the basic underline running costs of N3V throughout the development of the project.

I believe the foregoing would be much more acceptable if N3V were a full non-profit making voluntary organisation such as the UK Children in Need, or an amateur arts organisation who were part funded by such a body as an Arts Council. However, N3V unlike the forgoing is entirely a registered commercial organisation where at the conclusion of the development it will look to market all versions of the software with the aim of making a profit.

Only a few years ago it could be argued that simulation games where in a niche market, but that is no longer the case, proven by the fact that new gaming simulator software has come forward to the market on a considerable scale. N3V are involved with a number of these products with "Warehouse and Logistics Simulator, Airport Simulator, and Omnibus Simulator" taking pride of place on Simulator Central. Along with the foregoing Trainz is marked on simulator central as one of their "best sellers" to which I would congratulate them regarding both product and marketing.

From all the foregoing, it can be judged that N3V are a successful commercial company well able to fund itself and all its products in a world market. Chris in response to my posting advised that Trainz is not a "cash cow". The foregoing may be the case with trainz in its present unchanged state, but obviously as it is still on the market neither is it a great loss maker at present probably through the sale of first-class tickets and add-ons.

Looking at the above present position, senior management at N3V have obviously ascertained that in a growing market a completely reworked new version of the Trainz simulator will be a very good product and likely market leader with all the increased profitability such a situation could bring to the company. Therefore, it still begs the question why are N3V as a successful commercial company asking us as forum members to donate to the development of a new version of trainz when even on their own website they acknowledge the commercial success of the present version as the pinnacle sale of all the products they are involved with.

I strongly believe that N3V should be financing the development of any new version from presently held reinvestment funds or through commercial bank borrowing as all other companies do. Chris advises that forum members donations will make the difference between just another reworked version or something awesome. In answer to that I would most definitely say "go for the something awesome" as the more awesome the product is the more awesome the sales will be and foregoing will generate awesome profits for the owners or shareholders of the company.

However as stated, the financing should be done with N3Vs own cash as they will be by far the highest sole beneficiary of the development. It is very unclear what those through their donations will receive at the end of the project, for something awesome has to be in the eye of the beholder. Should it not be awesome in any donators eyes then he/she may feel they have lost everything given in their donation. In saying that N3V will have then lost very little as they never will have paid for the development.


Bill

 

[amigacooke]

I strongly believe that N3V should be financing the development of any new version from presently held reinvestment funds or through commercial bank borrowing as all other companies do. Chris advises that forum members donations will make the difference between just another reworked version or something awesome. In answer to that I would most definitely say "go for the something awesome" as the more awesome the product is the more awesome the sales will be and foregoing will generate awesome profits for the owners or shareholders of the company.

However as stated, the financing should be done with N3Vs own cash as they will be by far the highest sole beneficiary of the development. It is very unclear what those through their donations will receive at the end of the project. For something awesome has to be in the eye of the beholder. Should it not be awesome in any donators eyes then he/she may feel they have lost everything given in their donation. In saying that N3V will have then lost very little as they never will have paid for the development.


Bill

Bill, there are plenty of commercial companies using KickStarter to fund their 'video games'. N3V are not new in doing this, they are following a long line of other developers. As to plegers losing out, it is possible.

However, from my KickStarters I am at present:

Beta testing Godus (£15 pledged);
Beta testing War for the Overworld (think Dungeon Keeper 3, pledged £17);

Shortly expecting to test Elire Dangerous (pledged too much ;-), but only needed to pledge £20 for a digital copy of the game);
Shortly expecting to beta test StoneHearth (pledged $30);
Shortly expecting to alpha test Shroud of the Avatar (pledged $30);

And I have already received Smallworld 2 and LiveCode as a result of KickStarters.

In short, you don't need to pledge a fortune and it delivers results.

 

[Scitimar]

However as stated, the financing should be done with N3Vs own cash as they will be by far the highest sole beneficiary of the development.

Bill

Not in my eyes .. A couple of hundred $$ pledge ( a wager if you like, and I get far better odds than playing the rigged markets ) against what I see as personal enjoyment worth some where in the vicinity of $1MM, if I have to put a dollar value on things.

There's no way at all that I'm going to lose out on this deal if the Kickstarter is successful

 

[WindWalkr]

Chris in response to my posting advised that Trainz is not a "cash cow". The foregoing may be the case with trainz in its present unchanged state, but obviously as it is still on the market neither is it a great loss maker at present probably through the sale of first-class tickets and add-ons.

I would suggest that if you were to go to a business-savvy investor, and ask for a large amount of money to spend on a product which is "not a great loss maker at present", they would tell you to sod off.

That's exactly the reason for kickstarter. We're not looking for people who are "invested" because they want to make money. We're looking for people who are "invested" because they want to see the game of their dreams come to life.

If we make decent money off that, and get to grow the Trainz family in the future as a result, that's a win for both of us. If we don't, then at least the game's a lot more advanced than it would have been without the kickstarter.

kind regards,

chris

 

[wholbr]

Hi Everybody

~snip ~Bill, there are plenty of commercial companies using KickStarter to fund their 'video games'. N3V are not new in doing this, they are following a long line of other developers. As to plegers losing out, it is possible.~snip~

amigacooke, great to meet you again for discussion as I often feel we are the only two true gentleman remaining on the forum. Hope you are going along well.

With regard to your comment on commercial companies using kickStarter to fund their gaming software projects, it was a matter I was aware of. However, I believe that kickstarter came into being initially as a means of generating funds for new start-up businesses and young arts entrepreneurs allowing them to bring forward their ideas.

It is obvious that you are completely right in stating that plenty of established commercial companies are now using kickstarter for fund generation. However, in doing that they well may through increased competition on kickstarter deprive those young entrepreneurs of the funds they often desperately need while the established companies could well have funded their plans through normal commercial channels.

Perhaps the whole concept was too idealistic in the hard commercial world we both know.

I would suggest that if you were to go to a business-savvy investor, and ask for a large amount of money to spend on a product which is "not a great loss maker at present", they would tell you to sod off.

That's exactly the reason for kickstarter. We're not looking for people who are "invested" because they want to make money. We're looking for people who are "invested" because they want to see the game of their dreams come to life.

If we make decent money off that, and get to grow the Trainz family in the future as a result, that's a win for both of us. If we don't, then at least the game's a lot more advanced than it would have been without the kickstarter.

kind regards, chris

Chris, I have just sold my own business in order to retire after running that in what many considered to be a very successful manner for a considerable number of years. Therefore I am well aware of all that is involved in commercial borrowing and (using your literary skills) when you are likely to be told to "sod off". In recent months I have also become all too well aware of the problems people encounter when wishing to buy an established business. As stated commercial borrowing is no stranger to me

Along with the foregoing and with the greatest of respect, I feel the the section you took out of my earlier posting very much distorted my full point in so much as the matter I was stating. That section went together with the consecutive paragraph which gave forum readers my full position. My posting was only paragraphed on that position to enable improved read quality.

With regard to your statement that N3V could "make decent money" from the donations of forum members and in that there would be a win position for both Trainz users and N3V, then I respect that as a fair and honest point made. However, I would dare to suggest that N3V has very much more to "win" in this endeavour than any of its product users. N3V will have the guaranteed finances required without any of the normal risk involved with commercial borrowing. The forum donators having invested in the "game of their dreams" will have to await to see if the awesome trainz product promised does indeed live up to expectations. For as stated it in my earlier posting what is awesome is very much in the eye of the beholder.

Not in my eyes .. A couple of hundred $$ pledge ( a wager if you like, and I get far better odds than playing the rigged markets ) against what I see as personal enjoyment worth some where in the vicinity of $1MM, if I have to put a dollar value on things. There's no way at all that I'm going to lose out on this deal if the Kickstarter is successful

Scitimar, I could not agree with you more when you state that great personal enjoyment cannot be valued in terms of money. Tomorrow my wife and me along with a group of four friends are off to Manchester to watch ManU play Arsenal in the English Premier football league. I have been a lifelong supporter of Manchester United and there is no way that any price could be placed on the enjoyment they have given me over many years in my eyes.

Late Tomorrow afternoon we will enter one of the world's greatest stadiums with 78,000 others to watch two of the world's greatest club sides challenge each other gladiator style (in football terms) in one of the season's greatest fixtures. We will be there joining in the singing, chanting and camaraderie until the final whistle is blown. For the privilege of being part of the above our tickets have cost us each well over £100. However all of us would have gladly paid double the price for as you advised Scitimar great entertainment such as the foregoing is priceless.

Having said that, the owners of Manchester United have never asked for donations from the club supporters to enable the building of the stadium, the team or the management structure. Everything has been provided by the ticket admission paid by the supporters ,television sponsorship and commercial borrowing throughout the years .

As you may know the team this year has not played so far in the great manner of previous seasons. However, I would guarantee that the owners will not be passing the hat round tomorrow to enable the club to buy two new fullbacks. If the team of our dreams has to be rebuilt it will be through normal commercial channels which is as it should be.

Bill

 

[Sourdough]

OK, wholbr, so what are you hoping to accomplish with all these very wordy opinions? Obviously, most people won't choose to participate for various reasons, but there will be those who will want to kick something in.....does this bother you for some reason? All the years I've been here, it seems that every time a business decision is announced by Auran/N3V, some one doesn't agree with it, and of course, they were successful business people....so they know! It gets old. You obviously aren't in favor of the kick starter idea but it doesn't seem to be enough for you to simply not take part in it. Relax....don't worry so much about what some company that you have no say in does for creative funding or whether people donate or not. It's their business...not yours...really, it's not...

 

[WindWalkr]

With regard to your statement that N3V could "make decent money" from the donations of forum members and in that there would be a win position for both Trainz users and N3V, then I respect that as a fair and honest point made. However, I would dare to suggest that N3V has very much more to "win" in this endeavour than any of its product users.

Sorry, it seems I wasn't clear with this wording. There is little chance that the kickstarter pledges will put the project into the black. Large projects are very expensive. My point is that kickstarter plus our internal funding will allow us to reach higher goalposts, which may in turn lead to increased revenues.

kind regards,

chris

 

[simulatortrain]

Lol, that's the nature of DRM and cloud-based services.

I'd drop Trainz like a hot potato if it used Steam or any similar online method.

I'm sorry but does this have to be in every thread?

 

[H222]

Yes, because he's on an anti-N3V Scare Campaign. If you pay attention to him you're just as foolish as he is

 

[mikeaust]

In the 6 years I have been involved with Trainz I have downloaded a large amount of third party assets. These creators often ask for donations if their work is appreciated. I have donated a lot of money to these people though I am only on a pension, because I enjoy using their products.
Over the years I have purchased a number of versions of Trainz. So I feel I have been donating to Auran/N3V for an update of their product.
I have decided I am not willing to donate further after the fiasco(my own belief) of TS12 and the way users have been treated through the whole affair.
cheers,
Mike

 

[H222]

What fiasco and what mistreatment?

 

[amigacooke]

Hi Everybody

amigacooke, great to meet you again for discussion as I often feel we are the only two true gentleman remaining on the forum. Hope you are going along well.

I'm blushing.

With regard to your comment on commercial companies using kickStarter to fund their gaming software projects, it was a matter I was aware of. However, I believe that kickstarter came into being initially as a means of generating funds for new start-up businesses and young arts entrepreneurs allowing them to bring forward their ideas.

It is obvious that you are completely right in stating that plenty of established commercial companies are now using kickstarter for fund generation. However, in doing that they well may through increased competition on kickstarter deprive those young entrepreneurs of the funds they often desperately need while the established companies could well have funded their plans through normal commercial channels.

Perhaps the whole concept was too idealistic in the hard commercial world we both know.

As far as I'm aware, KickStarter gained traction from starting in the manner you described. However, their idealism doesn't stop them from taking a cut from every successful KickStarter project. Also, I only became involved with KS because Frontier Developments, an establlished developer, ran the Elite Dangerous project. I have since funded KS projects by one person outfits trying to get their first break.

I guess I'm trying to say that established developers can draw new people on to KS which increases the potential pool for the small guys and gals.

Scitimar, I could not agree with you more when you state that great personal enjoyment cannot be valued in terms of money. Tomorrow my wife and me along with a group of four friends are off to Manchester to watch ManU play Arsenal in the English Premier football league. I have been a lifelong supporter of Manchester United and there is no way that any price could be placed on the enjoyment they have given me over many years in my eyes.

Late Tomorrow afternoon we will enter one of the world's greatest stadiums with 78,000 others to watch two of the world's greatest club sides challenge each other gladiator style (in football terms) in one of the season's greatest fixtures. We will be there joining in the singing, chanting and camaraderie until the final whistle is blown. For the privilege of being part of the above our tickets have cost us each well over £100. However all of us would have gladly paid double the price for as you advised Scitimar great entertainment such as the foregoing is priceless.

Having said that, the owners of Manchester United have never asked for donations from the club supporters to enable the building of the stadium, the team or the management structure. Everything has been provided by the ticket admission paid by the supporters ,television sponsorship and commercial borrowing throughout the years .

As you may know the team this year has not played so far in the great manner of previous seasons. However, I would guarantee that the owners will not be passing the hat round tomorrow to enable the club to buy two new fullbacks. If the team of our dreams has to be rebuilt it will be through normal commercial channels which is as it should be.

Bill

I'm afraid that I think that Premiership Football is the most outrageous KickStarter ever . For the reward of watching 22 men kick an inflated bit of leather around you have the opportunity to give money to:

Enter the ground at a vastly inflated price compared to say non-league football;
Watch matches on TV;
Buy the club shirt;
Buy other branded goods;
Belong to the supporters club.

Clubs clearly pass the hat round every year when they ask supporters to buy season tickets. Pay now for non-guaranteed benefits that you will receive later.

Football can only be run as a business because supporters are prepared to donate in one form or another.

(Sorry about the rant, sadly top flight football is mostly about the money and very little about the football. Do I have to give my gentleman badge back?)

 

[Scitimar]

I'm afraid that I think that Premiership Football is the most outrageous KickStarter ever

Nice! I like it :hehe:

 

[wholbr]

Hi amiagacooke,symitar and everybody.

~snip~I'm afraid that I think that Premiership Football is the most outrageous KickStarter ever

amigacooke, that must qualify for a prize as the worst pun ever placed on this forum.

~snip~Clubs clearly pass the hat round every year when they ask supporters to buy season tickets. Pay now for non-guaranteed benefits that you will receive later..

Very true amigacooke. I can never understand why Chelsea, Liverpool and Manchester city supporters buy season passes in advance. However when us Manchester United supporters purchase our season passes we know that we are buying a ticket for a vehicle that will transport us through nine months of................. magnificence.:Y:

I will reply to the rest of your posting amigacooke tomorrow or Tuesday as we have only just got back to the hotel from Old Trafford after seeing the match. I am tired, very slightly inebriated, have a very hoarse throat from singing and chanting but over the moon at our win. Seeing as we did win I will allow you can to keep your gentleman badge on a three-month probationary basis.


Posted from the Marriott, Prince Victoria and Queen Albert hotel Manchester using my Sampson Galaxy tab, I think

Bill.
Edit, I have just told my friends of your "kickstarter" pun and everybody in the bar here is rocking about with laughter....... by tis could be a long night

 

[captainkman]

Hi Bill,

That would be a Samsung Galaxy tablet. You state of inebriation is showing, if I may say so. :hehe:

Back on topic.

I'll buy the next version. Whether I'll have a 64bit system on which to run it by that time I don't know. But I'll be supporting N3V by purchasing the new version. DRM or no DRM.

Kieran.

 

[wholbr]

Hi Bill,
That would be a Samsung Galaxy tablet. You state of inebriation is showing, if I may say so. :hehe:

Back on topic.
I'll buy the next version. Whether I'll have a 64bit system on which to run it by that time I don't know. But I'll be supporting N3V by purchasing the new version. DRM or no DRM.

Kieran.

Hi Kieran and everybody.
Kieran, thank you for pointing out my error and I think there were a few more in that posting which I cannot understand as I drank only two glasses of Shandy all evening:hehe:. Anyway, it certainly was a great night and that went with a great weekend which was capped by a great match.

Back to topic.
I am with you Kieran in the fact that I will definitely be supporting N3V in buying the next version. I have a system which is running Windows 8 on 64 bit so that should be all right. Whether I will donate to the project I am still thinking about.

I was definitely against it on the grounds that kickstarter was really meant for the funding of new business start-ups which had ideas. However, if other software gaming companies are using kickstarter to fund projects no doubt N3V would have to be in their if only on the grounds of competition on overheads.

There was also the amigacooke analogy of us football fans buying season tickets in advance which I thought was a good comment and which in several ways hit the nail of justification right on the head. To be honest I have never bought a season ticket for Manchester United as I have always worked long hours and could never be sure I could get to enough matches to justify it.

However, now I am semi retired I will probably buy one for next season. So, if I stomp up a couple of thousand pounds (which it probably is) for ManU in advance without knowing what I will really be getting, perhaps donating a few dollars to N3V could be justified as "running a balanced life" So, I have moved from definitely not donating, to at least thinking about it.

Bill

 

[amigacooke]

Hey Bill, I had a bit too much mulled wine on Saturday night at a fireworks party. Kept the cold out.

I thought about KS a bit longer and came to the conclusion that football supporters were the original crowdfunders.

Good to hear you'll check KS out,

Alan

 

[wholbr]

Hi anigacooke (Alan) and everybody.

Hey Bill, I had a bit too much mulled wine on Saturday night at a fireworks party. Kept the cold out.
I thought about KS a bit longer and came to the conclusion that football supporters were the original crowdfunders.
Good to hear you'll check KS out,

Alan

Well Alan, I'm glad to hear that I was not the only one "keep in the cold out" with a little light refreshment at the weekend. You have also hit the nail right on the head again in stating that football supporters where/are the original crowdfunderers and perhaps I can portray an experience of mine

The Manchester United v Arsenal match we went to at the weekend was a maximum capacity 78,000 attendance at Old Trafford many of whom had paid very high prices for their tickets. It was of course Remembrance Sunday and along with the chatter in the people carrier going up we had been listening to the remembrance service from the Cenotaph. We felt that there would be British Legion Poppy fund raisers at the ground when we arrived, and there where. However what we witnessed I would not have believed if I had not seen it with my own eyes. The Poppy fund raisers were being totaly overwhelmed by virtually everybody wishing to give as they approached the ticket barriers.

The police, ground stewards, car park attendants and what looked like the ground office staff had all pitched in to give a hand with buckets, bowls and even an old tin bath to collect the money that was being thrown in from all directions which was almost solely five and £10 notes, but that was not the end of it. As the teams came out onto the pitch for the start of the match to a deafening cacophony of cheering and singing the stadium address system called for a minutes silence to remember all who have fallen. Instantly huge crowd fell into total and absolute silence. The huge video screen to the left of us darkened and then came up with the words

"when you go home tell them of us and say, that we gave our tomorrow's for your today"

I can honestly say that minute was one of the most poignant minutes of my long life as it was for many many others. It certainly started off another round of giving with the British Legion collectors moving amongst the crowd throughout the first half and especially at half-time as we all headed for the catering to once more all give again. Football fans are often portrayed as mindless vicious idiots interested only in themselves. A small minority of the millions who go to matches throughout the world each week would certainly fit into the foregoing category. However, in all my years as a "footie fan" I have always found the vast majority of them to be much like everybody else in their normal lives but also very generous when asked to donate for causes at stadiums on match days.

I hope that the forum will forgive me for portraying the above as remembrance week had not been mentioned here in the community section and I thought I should give one forum members experiences of Remembrance Day, lest we forget.

Bill

 

[martinvk]

...

I hope that the forum will forgive me for portraying the above as remembrance week had not been mentioned here in the community section and I thought I should give one forum members experiences of Remembrance Day, lest we forget.

Bill

Nothing to forgive, thank you for sharing the day with us. It is good to occasionally step back and remember the really important things in life.