Validating, why N3V keeps loosing customers, and what to do about it

[norfolksouthern37]

Sure, I can accept that. There are certainly flaws in the program that can be identified and pointed out. But all of that nonsense above over the course of 3 posts? c'mon. If he is such a seemingly savvy guy and a computer engineer or whatever his titles or friends titles are, he should know right off the bat the way to get them to listen, and it isn't by any of that... He wouldn't accept anyone coming in and and telling him those things, and I have told him that in the past. At this point, it becomes more about the attack than actually accomplishing anything by pointing out a flaw. Anyway, I said my bit. This thread wont be around much longer I am sure.

 

[jrfolco]

Actually....you don't speak for me nor quite a few others. I personally don't have any problems with TS12 or N3V personal.

So in conclusion, without even reading the mind-numbing posts above, in typical fashion Frank will complain things are not his way and that anyone who disagrees is obviously young and incapable of understanding him and constantly re-assert himself as 'software savvy', 'computer engineer', 'software expert' etc etc etc until he gets banned.

I have to say that I'm in complete agreement with gawpo50 and norfolksouthern37.

 

[j_maybury]

I really think, this is not the time to pick sides in a full out war of dragging people through the mud.
What we need now that sufficient people are listening are, the bear facts to what is occurring with our computers, not what we think maybe happening, but only the bear facts. We need people like Frank, with his knowledge of programing, he could find a common denominator, so could a lot of others, even those that don't seem to have this problem, because if they don't their must be a reason why they are not affected by this problem. If we do decide to pull together, I think we could get sufficient data to give N3V a clue where to look.
Can it be any worse than what we are doing at the moment?

 

[steamboateng]

I agree. He could be a valuable asset to the community, if he kept his ire in check and to some degree let sleeping dogs lie. He has a pretty good command of the spoken word; his points could be more to the point and less to the personality.
I think there are few of us, who have been around for a while, who hasn't been p.o.'d at somebody else on the Forums along the line, for some conceived slight; real or imagined. Generally we shut up, life goes on..............we get to post another day...............
I'm gonna miss ya' Frank............

 

[boleyd]

For me the big worry is that the new "TANE" thing will be more of a competitive game with scoreboards, etc. Second, if my fear is only partially true we are still left with the current TS12. See Frank's comments.

Customers spend a lot of their own time either with fixes or workarounds provided by NON-N3V staff. The customers keep this product alive not N3V. For someone who just wants to USE the program for their enjoyment is bound to be faced with technical issues. Issues that will never be fixed. If that part is wrong perhaps a vendor's spokesperson could speak up and provide a list of outstanding TS12 issues as they see them. Alongside that list there would need to be marks on those issues that are intended to be fixed. You will NEVER see that. Game vendors do not cater to customers. Instead they profit from the efforts of those who keep their product viable without compensation or recognition. Once a month the President of N3V should come the forum and thank those people.

Frank, you could have condensed it down quite a bit. I just began to skim after the first msg.

 

[nicky9499]

Which part didn't you like nicky9499

The part where you butt into someone's "I have a problem" thread and proclaim "I don't have this problem". This isn't the first time. Please stop doing that.
If you don't experience the problem, leave the thread.

 

[simulatortrain]

The part where you butt into someone's "I have a problem" thread and proclaim "I don't have this problem". This isn't the first time. Please stop doing that.
If you don't experience the problem, leave the thread.

What if you butt in and say "I have a problem with this guy not having a problem." That's just as irrelevant. So is this post!

 

[kd7eirjim]

I'm trying to understand all the animosity here. If you experience a problem that someone is referring to then share your experience. If you do not experience the same problem then share your experience. It's just as valuable to know how many people are not experiencing a particular issue as it is to know how many are experiencing it.

Both sides of this coin are entirely relevant. There is really no reason to attack someone because they do/do not experience a particular issue with TS12.

I think that part of the animosity may stem from what is perceived as taking too long to resolve a particular issue when qualified people are offering their knowledge and assistance. N3V does not hold the key to all TS12 development knowledge and they could certainly benefit by listening to others that do. At the same time, those that have valuable input need to find a more neutral way of presenting it. Something along the lines of ARCR - Action: Result: Cause: Resolution: This removes the personalities from the issue and just focuses on the code.

It is painfully obvious that we are suffering from personality conflicts here, and everyone just needs to get over themselves. Age has nothing to do with ability - I am 50 and I work with people half my age that can run circles around me, as well as some my age that cannot find the open end of a paper bag.

We are all entitled to our opinions, and we are all entitled to disagree with each other. But the ad hominem BS has no place in an environment where the ultimate goal of everyone is to resolve software issues. I seriously doubt that anyone here or at N3V enjoys having to deal with these issues ad infinitum. If we could pull together in a dispassionate manner and just offer to help and accept the help of others we could make some pretty decent progress, and possibly create friendships, or at least a mutual respect, in the process.

 

[jacksonbarno]

I agree with Frank on this one, although I think it is more of the way that N3V handles problems than the actual problems themselves.

 

[jrfolco]

I'm trying to understand all the animosity here. If you experience a problem that someone is referring to then share your experience. If you do not experience the same problem then share your experience. It's just as valuable to know how many people are not experiencing a particular issue as it is to know how many are experiencing it.

Both sides of this coin are entirely relevant. There is really no reason to attack someone because they do/do not experience a particular issue with TS12.....

I'm in full agreement with kd7eirjim. No one should be attacked because they dare say that everything is working well for them. We need input from both sides to determine how good or bad a problem is.

 

[Fabartus]

I'm more concerned about N3V's possible action towards him as a result of this thread... of his comments.Shane

Thanks for the concern Shane, but I so seldom post here it really wouldn't matter to me. Besides, Windwalkr knows that I'm trying to help, even if he doesn't like the public dressing-down. I do find it interesting he deleted his Wiki Talk page, kind of open and honest in reverse. Bottom line, N3V wants to control free speech. Moody made a wild claim he'd had to correct every other edit I made... Windwalkr felt he spent too much time looking over my shoulder. The FACT is they changed just three edits of mine afterwards that I've seen and noted a correction on-perhaps a couple more, and one of those was because they mixed up their own version release sequences with the Service Packs in TS2009/10. You'll note they changed their own pattern of incrementing versions with SP releases. BECAUSE OF THAT... I loaded and keep ALL versions and HFs now so can test and avoid that kind of trivial assumption-not the kind of care they demonstrate. A few other 'cosmetic or style changes." Point is the very few changes are expected and themselves questionable fiddles. You be the judge. Here's every 'page I edited' . Here's 'every page' where 'I edited the last change on' -- 481 as of the moment, the list has shrunk some since 3 months ago as others make changes. And Moody has the gall to tell me he's changing every other page I tweaked?

All Windwalkr's bann on the N3V wiki did was stop the progress I'd made dumbing it down enough to be comprehensible to the non-techie. This is the draft change that I started that set off Moody. When I returned to it expecting to overhaul that outline, I was banned. These guys are so classy, I had to inquire some days later having expected a notice. Hah. The way N3V communicates can usually be summed up as POOR to worse.

He claims there are eight insults in this lead. I still can't find one. NO question, the voice is more appropos on the Wikibook, not a company site, but reverting a draft takes 5 seconds. Banning your best editor gets you contempt until you grow up. In an email he says Chris made him do it. So, the wiki sits in it's wonderously embarrassing state, no links, poorly organized, unthreaded, a information resource to Content Creators and error fixing some of the time, and even then incomplete and bare of examples. Apparently Moody's prideful that some of his changes make some of what I said now only applicable to older released SPs or versions. His email was full of wounded ego stuff, well, I'm not going to sugar coat it. In my mind, given what this program might have become, Trainz 2010 and TS12 are pretty disappointing. My counterpoint is those software items are both still being sold AND more importantly still on people's computers to be taken up again at any moment... and retried yet again. You only get so many chances with a thing, but most people are smart enough to figure that there must be a pony somewhere with all the manure in the room, so reenter time permittting and hunt around some more. Some of them, like me, make it a passion once we catch on.

I went through THREE years of occasionally deciding not to delete TR04/TR06 before I actually became a progressing user... The learning curves on this package need a lot of motivation... or a printed manual, which toilet-time reading is what finally got me off the dime. Had I not printed that pdf manual one day... I'd never have tackled Surveyor, nor learned to Drive half-decently. I hesitate to confess how many times I carelessly derailed running that old Highland Valley Coal session--probably still a contender for my all time favorite when I want to drive. THAT experience is likely NOT UNIQUE. Read the reviews on Amazon.com and see where people think Trainz, any Trainz doesn't work at all.

N3V's (esp. Moody's and Chris's) WIKI focus is solely on TS12, mine is on ALL TRAINZ versions... so late at night, groggy, pushing myself to get started on beginner help (as I'd self-promised)... I composed that rough draft. SHOOT ME CHRIS, the joke's on the new user's community. Many wiki pages start as just stubs. A line or two. PLACE HOLDERS in fact. In the next two days I'd have put together a comprehensive set of articles and sections for the beginners off that start.

Three months later Tony Hilliam was trying to pick up the pieces with Surveyor introduction stuff... Oh, sorry, he did that on an entirely different page. THIS ONE'S STILL A DISASTER. Rah, rah, Chris! (Here's his comparable edit(s). See, these guys use about 4% of wikimedia software, and are clueless on most of its capabilities. Oh ho! Tony Has been Busy! Kudos, BOSS! There's a mysterious contributor doing HowTo pages as well. Clearly a hired hand--or Tony incognito, so N3V may be moving on fixing up the wiki. It'll still be a pale shadow of that excellent TRS2006.pdf manual. Not sure why they aren't updating using that as boilerplate, at least it's organized and cohesive. The mission Statement of the wiki by Hilliam and what he got are so dramatically different as to ensure this fiasco was a major disappointment to Tony.

Tony Hilliam;

TS2009 continues the tradition of providing the most flexible and powerful rail simulation tools ever created. In this latest edition ... 10K SNIP. Users can write their own blogs, find and chat with other users, add screenshots to their own gallery and share their experience through Trainz Journeys (stories written by Trainz fans about their experiences). Top 10 lists will showcase the best screenshots, movies, routes, downloads, and Journeys. Users will be able to vote on Daily, Weekly and All-time lists and filter by Region to find the best content from their favourite part of the world.
​

Once again, TS2009 will be a collaboration between Auran and the content creation community. This combined effort 10K SNIP, SNIP version of Trainz. Tony Hilliam/ CEO - Auran Games​

​

The lesson is this, IF N3V wants a wiki, THAT WIKI, they need to let the community manage it. NOT a COMPANY player that sees it as a tool SOLELY for content creators, and has had since 2008 to get something together. PEV/Andi06 is reluctant to put Asset-x and TARDIS on this thing, and I can't blame them. THAT's trust the site will last, right? Snigger. If I, or Shane or Pcas1986, Andi06, PEV, or Jumpin jack Flash make a mistake, someone will catch it soon enough THAT's What a Wiki is all about--not demotivating contributors... To assume bad faith and discourage edits with snide comments and try to control what the community tried to put up (The old CCG effort, Windwalkr was really out of line with many of his comments there. Somehow, in his mind there is no TRAINZ VERSIONS besides the one marketing is currently pushing. Funny I have loads of problems I need guidance on in older ones... and the Wiki should ignore THOSE (and my needs???). Get real.)

Windwalkr's pretty much repeated the sentiment over and over that route builders needs don't matter to him. We're unimportant. THAT's what outrages this businessman... who are the customers for all the content he hopes will be created for his interest -- meaning TANE. Our interests start with performance and time efficiencies. TANE, given the time it takes to switch around a view, or switch tools in surveyor is way down my list of priorities. WHY should I be happy to wait 5-7 seconds with each tool change going back and forth between tools F1--F4 shaping an area, moving or adding integrated scenery when that same sequence took maybe 20 seconds in TR06, but now takes over two minutes and involves repeated losses of concentration because hotkeys just... lag and HANG, and then when backing for a wider view, the whole center moves and I zoom to altitude when I merely want a bit more panorama to judge the area?

Further on TANE... Is the community aware that having movie like animation capable graphics is going to load processing dramatically over that abysmal performance? Some of the Alpha/Beta testers have found that they have to get new latest greatest PRICEYEST Gcards... anyone want to bet on whether it will work well with your current hardware? Do you really trust these guys? The question we all need to answer is why should we trust that they're new latest greatest will have better performance when they're not even juggling the current less complicated data sets effectively? Hmmmm? Do you have that trust? I can't honestly say I do (See this draft, warning, has some redundancies. It's a scratch pad some 'Pioneers' have asked me to put together.), their track record in setting priorities hasn't favored the user base needs. Whatever they come up may look pretty, but I'll wager it will be far more likely worse to world build than better.

 

[shaneturner12]

Interesting you mention a mysterious contributor - that's Paul Olsen who is one of the further up people at N3V (he usually crops up under the username n3vgames or n3vgamespaulolsen or similar. In terms of Wiki editing, I've now got a test Wiki system on my tutorial site (it's not actually linked to any of my pages or search engines but it does include ParserFunctions - send me a PM if you want to have a test of it). At some point, I'm planning to help sort out something on the N3V wiki on how to deal with certain technical problems - similar to what I do on my tutorial site.

I did ask an interesting question regarding DirectX recently in the Kickstarter forum and got an interesting response from Tony.

As a TPC member though, I should be able to see how things play out anyway with T:ANE at pretty much all stages. Hopefully I will be able to make a difference on that front - only time will tell. I know the other TPC members (as well as some of the TEG members) want to see an improved version just like me.

In the meantime though, we need to be careful on how we approach and comment about N3V as anything could happen, and I wouldn't want to see either of us getting the short straw.

In terms of the validation though, it may be a good idea if you can to put together a repro case on what may be causing the problem validations. I will help if I can.

Shane

 

[Fabartus]

I agree. He could be a valuable asset to the community, if he kept his ire in check and to some degree let sleeping dogs lie. He has a pretty good command of the spoken word; his points could be more to the point and less to the personality.
I think there are few of us, who have been around for a while, who hasn't been p.o.'d at somebody else on the Forums along the line, for some conceived slight; real or imagined. Generally we shut up, life goes on..............we get to post another day...............
I'm gonna miss ya' Frank............

Gee Thanks, Steamer. Hearts and kisses back to you too you ugly ole Sailor. '

To the rest of you, and perhaps especially to you Justin, THE THING THAT BURNS ME UP is the time wastes... every time... Name one other software package which asks the user to wait 6-8-10 hours while it reorganizes it's house? They make an FTP installer link, download new content, expand that, and replace the old. Done in a few minutes in one concentrated trackable operation. Maybe they ask you to reboot to initialize new DLLs.

In Trainz case, they'd ALSO simply need to filter local content for the NN items of type KIND XXXX and re-process those for a data change, provided they needed to tweak the way that Data Kind is processed on preliminary processing. Doubt many changes affect dozens of data KINDs, the needs are rather specific to the self generation of an asset... ALL THE OTHER entries could be unmolested, unaffected... and not cost users extra time checking nothing that will change.

You folks have been victimized repeatedly and are asking for that to continue. I'm demanding they bring themselves into this century, not continue using 1970s techniques. I made half-a-dozen friends last Summer that won't even bother with TS12 now. Were they working the many issues reported in the TS12-SP1 threads? Or playing with preliminary schemes for TANE? That video and base tech was taking time from all of you last summer and fall... and the problems remain. MOST OF THIS I expected to be in TS2009: "WORLD BUILDERS EDITION". To my surprise, and I doubt much of it is original... others have made similar requests... NONE of it has been handled... or things like the fonts and colors have made the program worse. (e.g SPECIFICALLY, aside from the delays: I have no clue as to how I can possibly write sessions with the white on grey ant fonts... I'm going to have to drag a debugger out and find the color and poke in a new value... black!)

 

[Fabartus]

Frank, you could have condensed it down quite a bit. I just began to skim after the first msg.

NO doubt Bill, but that's 2-3am Gotta get this done fuzzy thinking. Just posting 'the guys' emails was a mistake. Howsomeever... The issue is simple. STOP WASTING OUR TIME to make things convenient or shorter for yourself. That sums it up. I just see where they're taking advantage of us. Even Justin can follow that logic. Now if he'd fix his web site so it had some contrast... Ok, forlorn hope#2.

 

[Fabartus]

In the meantime though, we need to be careful on how we approach and comment about N3V as anything could happen, and I wouldn't want to see either of us getting the short straw.

In terms of the validation though, it may be a good idea if you can to put together a repro case on what may be causing the problem validations. I will help if I can.

Shane

I don't have the Trainz time to begin to go there, worthy as the idea is, that's not where I'd spend time experimenting right now*--I'm trying to overhaul the Wikibook, not run Trainz for me own enjoyment just now! HOWEVER, the mother Thread on Validation I think may have spun in an interesting possible cause and effect direction last night... John was apparently deleting Obsolete items... Putting that together with Justin's points on what validation was in actual fact, I suspect that explains the frequency with which it's been biting him. Frankly he's been off Trainz more than on lately and I really only took this up because of his bitching about it and getting locked up so often. He's even worried Skype was causing the problems, and John without Trainz is like John without Music, very sad and dispirited. He's ill enough without either of those things!

My case is very different. Since I tend to not shut things down unless I'm heading to bed, Trainz usually has a good hour or ten or more to do the background processes before I even think of closing it. I see (just now getting that link) Justin agreed with my surmised thinking there, so perhaps N3V can poke Chris into rejoining and addressing that point, and we can put the validation questions to bed as less mysterious, add to the don't do this or that will happen list and move on. I have decided to put something here sooner than a couple of days on the DLS solutions... stay tuned.

now to this *--soliciting some experimenters... desire to statistically examine the frequency of found errors in DLS randomly selected routes and sessions from a baseline start in TS12 and then work backwards to older routes using this starting page to select route--and some dice <g>. Here's the catch, want clean installs to be the test bed, so a recent Trainz without 'fixed' assets. Applicants will need to wait whilst I figure out how to use the dice to give a valid random selection, but really need only download the nn targeted routes, quantify the numbers and types of errors with a few screenshots, and delete that and move onto the next kuid to test. Actual downloading can be from inside CM, only location of a suitable kuid is on the web page... or not as you prefer. I'm hoping to find 'nn=10' seems reasonable to a group of volunteers, and if nothing else, a combined report to the community on that will be 'Facination itself', don't chya think?

 

[rickf77]

Thanks for all that Frank... and thanks for "The issue is simple." part. I'm a magnificent computer moron. This is only the second simulation "game" I've tried. The last site I was at was quite different. The members took care of the site and anything uploaded to the "downloads section". Smart guys like you, John and others handled all the tech stuff...servers and all the stuff most folks don't know about. I left because one of their "golden boys" used trees that another creator made and did not mention it in the "credits". When the creator mentioned it, all hell broke loose, and the original creator got banned for life. I was sick and tired of being a junior admin, and to some degree used this as an excuse to get the heck out of there. I should never have been given that position (moron thing), but I had donated maybe 3-4000 over a couple of years. They knew I was a moron, I never lie about that. I always said, "I'll help out anyway I can", meaning, just let me know when you need more money. Next thing you know, I'm a moderator, then junior admin.

This is all new to me. I'm not used to data base repairs, updates that seem to screw things up that used to work just fine, or people messing with someone's work without their permission and everyone seems OK with it.

I was used to starting the sim, wait a few seconds and Bob's your uncle.

I do like Trainz. I think I'm going to be staying with TS12 non SP1 and the rest of it. I have it off line and it seems pretty stable to me. I don't want to fix stuff I never broke or go through all the rest of it. That's not what I call fun.

Cheers....Rick

 

[Fabartus]

For anyone up late, or up early, a couple posts above I said I'd get a proposal to expedite straightening out the DLS up here ASAP. Well it's not quite complete with remedial measures, and generally unfinished with copyediting needed, but the gist and direction should be plain. The advantage to this is we'll all stop getting errors, will all see where assets are that have missing dependencies, will all see which kuids have faults. That's a lot of improvement over today's crapshoot even without the fact that all those things then become easier to fix and easier to manage. Best regards // Frank

 

[boleyd]

I am anxious to see how it is possible to overcome the problems created by either attempts to "clean up" the DLS or to remedy things like having a missing texture but the program refuses to tell you the name of the missing texture. And so on.

As some have said requiring the customer to compensate for errors introduced, but never corrected, by N3V is getting old. You pay for a product it has some bugs they get fixed. But when an attempt to remedy previous management incompetence causes more problems that makes it more like sitting at your desk and fixing errors - but no salary. Where, but in the sordid gaming world, must customers have to repair the vendors errors.

 

[Fabartus]

I am anxious to see how it is possible to overcome the problems created by either attempts to "clean up" the DLS or to remedy things like having a missing texture but the program refuses to tell you the name of the missing texture. And so on.

As some have said requiring the customer to compensate for errors introduced, but never corrected, by N3V is getting old. You pay for a product it has some bugs they get fixed. But when an attempt to remedy previous management incompetence causes more problems that makes it more like sitting at your desk and fixing errors - but no salary. Where, but in the sordid gaming world, must customers have to repair the vendors errors.

I'm remiss in getting back to finish that, yesterday ambushed me with a migraine from hell. But as a further teaser to what I'd gotten to, consider this. Computers are really good at manipulation of text data, doing binary conversions, and as we all now see daily, moving data about. Why hasn't there been a two way data flow--users X,W, Z all have locally modified Asset <kuid:XXXX:YYYY> and those HAD AN ERROR... as TrainzUtil and CM knew for an instant, at least. Why not have a TrainzUtil/CM smart enough to download the unchanged asset (if on the DLS) And stripping unecessary text (licenses, descriptions, obsolescent names on parsing, even usernames [might have been customized locally]) check the base KUID's just downloaded test-asset versus the fixed asset--but first validate the checked download... "Oh look", the software could exclaim, "the DLS one has an error", well, "let's branch to the sub-program to send this fixed one to a web handler to check against others, as it works"... (Computer mumbles to itself doing computer things sending data packets to a DLS branch utility designed to take such inputs... a modified bit of code based on the historic uploading inputs. How THEY want to do it could vary greatly, THAT IT CAN BE DONE is a certainty, and that relatively easily.)

Alternatively, the software can be sending back a message to invalidate downloading said asset because it has an error. Me, were I them, would set up a local binary compare of three 'fixed' files once I received them, and if they parse and compare binarily the same, modify the DLS asset--but unlike a Windwalkr, make an auto-notation in the file description about the change, also REM out any obsolescent lines, and possibly, update data elements conformal to the claimed trainz-build version.

[He's a bit unappreciative about using Remarks in source code--perhaps they are too old school and work to keep a large group informed about why things were done. He doesn't need THAT when he can turn and ask Moody over his shoulder about this or that. Unfortunately, that leaves the rest of us stuck without understanding, or ability to build in options, extend instructions, et. al.]
​

We're talking about a couple of extra subroutines, a patch or three to set up the two way data flow, and the worst case outcome is N3V will have three or more fixes for Asset <kuid:XXXX:YYYY> with slightly different textures because each human intervening came up with a slightly different fix. Heavens to Murgatroid! The sky is faliing! Think you can teach an intern to recognize that kind of difference and act as a gatekeeper, Dick? I know I could. Why doesn't Tony Hilliam?

Why don't the rest of you ask them why this low cost and straightforward strategy get put into place back in 2008? Okay, 2005, but that was before Tony's tenure.

 

[Lendorf]

First, Frank, I like to compliment you for speaking out what some of as have for a long time suspected about Trainz, the DLS, CM etc.but alas, we were afraid to speak up about these. Only the way you went about, belittling the persons involved as in your posts further above, this could have been avoided by you. I can understand your frustration(s), anger, head shaking, hopelessness etc. as with the help of a (or a few) utility made by N3V Games (after all, they code and program the Simulation) some of the issues outlined by you could have been fixed and therefore avoided.

Be it as it may, please refrain of bashing Chris WindWalkr, Tom Moody at al, as I can see what will happen to you sooner, rather than later down the track.

Re your quote:

Why doesn't Tony Hilliam?

Well, you see, in the golden, olden days (around and before TRS04/06), the people running the Trainz franchise were Train enthusiasts and hobbyists, who knew which way Trainz should be heading evolution wise. But who were all gone after the FURY disaster for AURAN (google for it) and then accountants and bean counters took over the Trainz franchise. For them, not knowing a piece of code from another, the bottom line always was and still is, how much does it cost and how much profit are we going to lose, if major changes to Trainz were contemplated? Hence we have seen Trainz evolve the way this has now become with TS12 with a major SP, which fixed some bugs BUT came up with a lot more, which took so far 4 Hot Fixes to "fix".

Is this TS12 61388 now perfect? You be the judge and by the amount of posts here in this forum, this does not seem so.

My 2 cents worth.

Lennard