Who is doing the updating ?~!

[SailorDan]

...you can't just back date a route that was saved in later version, it must be done in the lowest version,

Yes. That's why I said that routes can't be fixed like other assets and need a special process such as I described. Please read the description again - there is no backdating.

... in this case the person updating the route using your advice would have to have a pre-SP1 TS09 install for your method to work, or other wise the route becames defective.

No. 2.9 is TS2009 - that's exactly why I specifed that the route must be saved after editing and the build must be 2.9 - the build must match the version the route was saved as. If it does, it then works in any later version.

 

[celje]

..You should be uploading it as a new revision (increase the revision number at the end of the kuid number; do not change the userID or assetID numbers of the kuid), not as a separate asset.
Regards

Must be, after 'Create new version' for the route 1), changed the route kuid in the config of the sessions too?

 

[martinvk]

Now I'm confused. On the one hand we have to convert and fix errors in older content locally to work in newer versions of Trainz. Some call it too much work! On the other hand when older content is updated on the DLS for everyone's benefit so we don't have to do it ourselves. Some call it bad!

Leaving aside the issues of notifications etc., which way should it be done?

Some are lucky in that they can make most of their own objects so are pretty much insulated from these problems.

 

[sniper297]

"What if it does not need or should not be updated in the first place?"

One of many reasons I gave up on Trainz and went back to making addons for Oblivion and Silent Hunter IV - I don't have to fix anything unless it's actually broken and it doesn't involve constant screwing around adapting to changes made by others.

 

[clam1952]

Must be, after 'Create new version' for the route 1), changed the route kuid in the config of the sessions too?

If its a route don't edit in any higher than the build it was made for is the safest bet, if it's updated in TS12SP1 and saved then it has to have a 3.7 build version as it ain't going to work in any lower build due to those obsoleted kuids and as far as I'm aware the repair only requires an incremented version number, not a build version update.
One for N3V to sort out or the DLS might be full of say 2.6 routes that no longer work in anything other than TS12.

 

[JCitron]

It would be nice, perhaps a bit of a big courtesy to the whole community, if the individual updating an asset places a line somewhere in the description stating something like "Asset updated under the DLS clean-up project". This would help all of us and prevent quite a few hurt feelings.

John

 

[pcas1986]

Now I'm confused. On the one hand we have to convert and fix errors in older content locally to work in newer versions of Trainz. Some call it too much work! On the other hand when older content is updated on the DLS for everyone's benefit so we don't have to do it ourselves. Some call it bad!

Leaving aside the issues of notifications etc., which way should it be done?

Some are lucky in that they can make most of their own objects so are pretty much insulated from these problems.

That sums up my feelings as well. Ian's TARDIS script will fix up broken assets locally but that doesn't help the wider community. Fixing up assets via the Cleanup Program should then make "fixed" assets available to the community but, as I understand it, will make them unavailable for those with older versions.

I did like John's suggestion of adding a notification in the description. Since I have nothing to hide I intend to add my user id as well.

 

[clam1952]

That sums up my feelings as well. Ian's TARDIS script will fix up broken assets locally but that doesn't help the wider community. Fixing up assets via the Cleanup Program should then make "fixed" assets available to the community but, as I understand it, will make them unavailable for those with older versions.

I did like John's suggestion of adding a notification in the description. Since I have nothing to hide I intend to add my user id as well.

Need to rephrase that as MAY make them unavailable to the rest of the community, don't think you should be changing the Trainz version number. In fact I think that the errors that the Cleanup is fixing were errors in the original version of Trainz but due to the poor or non existent error checking then, were never flagged up at the time.

 

[pcas1986]

Need to rephrase that as MAY make them unavailable to the rest of the community, don't think you should be changing the Trainz version number. In fact I think that the errors that the Cleanup is fixing were errors in the original version of Trainz but due to the poor or non existent error checking then, were never flagged up at the time.

OK Malcolm, I fixed one asset to work out the process and left the build number unchanged. Now I will wait until the Upload Process says it was OK.

I chose a random asset and cannot say I was overly impressed with it. But I followed the rules and only changed that which were causing errors and warnings.

Getting the kuid number changed without CM getting its knickers in a twist was interesting. Then I remembered SailorDan's comments and used the Import Content trick. Despite N3V providing a link to a "How to repair" page, that was totally useless since it assumes you are repairing your own content. That I don't need help with.

Sorry, if I am hijacking this thread a bit but it seemed related.

Cheers

 

[martinvk]

...
I did like John's suggestion of adding a notification in the description. Since I have nothing to hide I intend to add my user id as well.

Likewise, would the person who updated and then uploaded Toronto Rail Lands 1954 kindly step forward.
The route was never anywhere near Tonga nor in the USA.

 

[Fabartus]

One other KEY point for fixing older content!

Hi Zec --SNIP
"If the asset has been repaired incorrectly, then there is no issue with you (the original creator) uploading an update to resolve this. You should be uploading it as a new revision ... ."
What if it does not need or should not be updated in the first place? SNIP
...
For example, PortOgden&Northern 1a = TRS2004; 2a = TRS2006 through TRS2010; TS12 = TS12. All with different kuids.
It's pointless bringing PO&N 1a up to TS12 standards because there is a vastly better TS12 version already on the DLS.
Likewise with DowntownTration. 1a/b = TRS2004; 2a = 06 to 10; TS12 = 12
I hope we can work this out. I suspect I might not be alone here. Regards, Phil
And as Rick points out in Post #13 (previous page), updating a TS10 route to TS12 makes it unusable in TS10, even though the text under the thumbnail says it is for TS10.

You aren't. I feel you have EXACTLY the right methods. Further, an asset updated over a broken one, ought be vetted in the native version... For example, to fix a v1.3 asset, most times one has to connect the meshes and texture.txt files... but that is from TB 2.0 and up, which means it's going to bomb in Trainz and UTC. In that case, I bump the kuid and the TB to 2.3 or 2.5... both of which CM knows to translate the bogeys, thumbnails, mesh-table and texture.txt references. Logically, For THIS PURPOSE, the correct TB bump would be lowest possible--V2.0! // F

I SNIP
Some of the "broken" assets have some rather odd errors that suggests the DLS syntax checking of the time must have been very simple.

From all I have read, including that "other" thread, I can only practically fix and upload assets for TB 3.5. So that will make the original assets unavailable for anyone using lower versions. Even via the black pages - which aren't black anymore! I guess if I were quick I could get in a few with lower TBs before N3V drops the bar. This isn't very encouraging for someone trying to help the community.
Cheers

Not sure what you mean about practical fixes for below v3.5... if it has no script and is not an engine, my research says the basic errors list presented on validation is geared to the TB in the config. There is a translation going on during that, in other words, albeit a back-asswards one. If they overtly translated to an intermediate config. file, then vetted that, many of these errors would be handled by the understanding of the translation.

Instead, their switching on the trainz-build and generating different processes of error checking so the messages change! Mapping changes needs from old convention 'ONTO' new (to the new) structs they want to handle would make these edits automatic, and make the DLS far more robust--every future code change then just needs a bit of patch software to provide the new translations. They tried to save themselves work, and made a nightmare for the community instead! The hours cost is beyond reckoning and boggles the mind! // F

Must be, after 'Create new version' for the route 1), changed the route kuid in the config of the sessions too?

Their auto-lookup process should make them OK, so leave them alone unless showing errors. // F

Now I'm confused. On the one hand we have to convert and fix errors in older content locally to work in newer versions of Trainz. Some call it too much work! On the other hand when older content is updated on the DLS for everyone's benefit so we don't have to do it ourselves. Some call it bad! Leaving aside the issues of notifications etc., which way should it be done?

I have no problem with an update, as an update. It's been a revelation that we could upload under this program under the author's kuid and the original kuid at that. I've asked that question three times this week alone in other threads, and Zec never responded.

But an actual fix should use the same KUID and stop sandbagging newbies and less technically inclined. OTOH, see the above about the v1-5--v2.0 differences in structures. That means a KUID change IS NECESSARY if it's a fix, the older asset just isn't treated the same way as in TRS2004--TC3 LOOKING AT the asset folder.

These newer Trainz are all blind to the conventions those use to connect to stuff. Somehow they find the meshes, but not follow the same path to the textures! This became very apparent when I fixed an asset and it worked fine in TRS2006-SP1 (where I started last June) and then found the fixed version needed further upgrades to work in TS2009 -- where I began cross-checking about a year ago exactly. In October added TS10's and it's SP series and so far, anything working in TS09-SP4 was fine in TS10 & ditto for TS12. The flaw is in the 'new' N3V parser failing to look at the old Trainz/UTC methods, and handling them. As I've been at pains to point out this past month.
​

• 
  [*=1]One other KEY point. Don't know about the TC's and this, as I've yet to test it, but any AlphaHint line generated by PEV's Images2TGA and presumably AssetX should be commented out with a '//' beginning the line. You can even add a comment in those! The CM error will be treating it as a texure line error. See the added error messages I've put here on the Wikibook for working remedies.

Hell, I've coded S/W since the '70s on and off, and am a computer engineer, and it took a good three months of study to get comfortable (reasonably good) with fixing the most common cases. I pity the poor parent or child with no background like mine that falls into this morass. (I've one right now that has me head scratching... Looks like CM wants a _body folder as won't respect the path in the asset root folder for half-a-dozen textures PEV's IM viewer shows and finds no problem! Work in Progress... taking a break from that catching up here!) No wonder the gamer web boards warn people off Trainz! // F

​

It would be nice, perhaps a bit of a big courtesy to the whole community, if the individual updating an asset places a line somewhere in the description stating something like "Asset updated under the DLS clean-up project". This would help all of us and prevent quite a few hurt feelings.
John

Agreed and I'll raise to the table limit... Suggest a DLS Fixed 'Group' which uses the otherwise useless 1000 character limited thread to post a running list that such and such has been fixed. A courtesy but a news worthy way to get some acknowledgement too. Just wait for sure it's been accepted! // F

That sums up my feelings as well. Ian's TARDIS script will fix up broken assets locally but that doesn't help the wider community. Fixing up assets via the Cleanup Program should then make "fixed" assets available to the community but, as I understand it, will make them unavailable for those with older versions.

I did like John's suggestion of adding a notification in the description. Since I have nothing to hide I intend to add my user id as well.

But of course, I've instituted a byline template for the same purpose on the Wikibook. No reason to not get a small 'props' benny. I add something like this to everything I fix:

---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ----------
Rev-A 2014-0815 - by Fabartus - Repair built-in asset with removal of illegal tag '0' as line#002, remove thumnail tag. Massage description and add foldername per NAMCON to unified format adopted 2014-0612.

// F

Need to rephrase that as MAY make them unavailable to the rest of the community, don't think you should be changing the Trainz version number.

YES! Right on! // F

In fact I think that the errors that the Cleanup is fixing were errors in the original version of Trainz

Not in the case of following the old Gmax parkings, _art, _body, _shadow etc. TS09 and TS12 won't and can't find their thumbnails for Pete's sake! Get all kinds of missing texture issues for that failure to handle the old standard as well. So this was just poor or arrogant programming. IMHO, they were trying to force conformity without regard to the TIME COSTs to the community, and they've danged near gotten away with it--Save for me piping up to demand they handle it better in TANE this past few weeks! Pipe up too! Much of this is needless! FURTHER, they should also be able to handle many scripted asset transitions by parsing an include file in the validation stage and matching class declarations and like changes in the model. Paul Cas pretty much fixed a 'scenery' assets issues with script vs class, by recognizing the better KIND would be a mocrossing--this was a dock with track, iirc. By trapping such and giving a better error as a last resort, or knowing what they'd changed when in the libraries and kinds, a lot of such simple mappings should and could be handled automatically during a preprocess check DLL. Wouldn't surprise me that a few slip through the current CM/TrainzUtil looks and that's where we see run time script errors show up. That software gives that message on loading, right--the software module exists, so a dummy run to vett the asset should be simulated with a different set of actions--the auto patch processing to handle the common and expectable situations. And those could be updated without affecting the Trainz-build, so make for a more robust TANE or hopefully a TS12-SP2 as well! // Frank

 

[Dinorius_Redundicus]

See the added error messages I've put here on the Wikibook for working remedies.

I have to say, you've done an excellent job on that Wikibook. Lets hope that those who like to fix/update other people's content use the Wikibook as a reference to get things right.

 

[Fabartus]

I have to say, you've done an excellent job on that Wikibook. Lets hope that those who like to fix/update other people's content use the Wikibook as a reference to get things right.

Thanks, but I consider it only just barely begun. I've got most of the 'tools' in place and am only now just beginning to work the Trainz fundamentals into intro articles. Nor have a enough in place to consider rationally how to thread the articles though I've a tool template ready, albeit, may want to adapt to a better alternative. See the header and footer on this Content Manager intro to page, for example. Sometime in the next couple of weeks I may combine the linking and header template so all that is in the header box. This looks fine, but I suspect That will look better. Can't do that on the Trainz Wiki, they won't turn on ParserFunctions, nor install Common.css and Common.js files so searching is as easy as on the Wikibook. (See for yourselves. Goto the search window, type 'Trainz\ref...' and a whole list of pages will drop down so you can drag and drop to a page title. Easy-peesy!) [If this is a function of being a registered user, that is, if that doesn't work that way for you whom Wikimedia sites don't know--someone please let me know with a PM!]

The tutorials series I outlined in our private Yz-Tz forum a year ago, June--can still only be addressed somewhat down a future timeline. That will focus on interleaving fun skills building with knowledge building in a 'progressive sequence' of modules. Show a little, do a little, keep it fun, accompanied by video and plenty of pics and cross-linked to there or N3V for basic knowledge referencing, I've got a couple of routes picked out for early progressions in download skills, scouting a route, Driver Tips, and snooping a Session so the newbie starts immediately to get a feel for how to use and become familiar with parts of Trainz by doing--then progressively introduce more skills (modify the old route, give it interactive stations, industry changes, portals, and programme them and a basic session and so forth.

Show, Do, document, have them do then move onto the next module--which will use the just upgraded route or session as a starter. Rotate between a few routes and build surveyor and sessions skills getting more and more advanced as it progresses... Right now that is but a dream, but we're getting closer to having the underpinnings in place. (See the glossary and Notations pages in the title bars--those are designed to be section linkable yet have the term break up the flow of composed text as little as possible, making writing and proofing far easier). Putting short topics in there really eases the writing. I can link and emphasize and get to the task without being near as wordy! (To the surprise of any who see my rare posts here!)

This is a good segue as any--I need some examples of content of type for configs... configs... or was it configs... <BSEG> and asset types (KINDs) pages. Some topics wil have the three tier beginner-intermediate-advanced structure, another two examples will be Content Manager and Surveyor. build understanding, don't bore!

We want an asset's development sliced and diced and explained to the nth degree, especially one that's been upgraded 4 times or so to different TBs, Drop me a PM or email with a nomination. I'm looking for example assets from A-Z! I started documenting Engine-specs this weekend, and scenery, traincars, trackside (initially all addressed from 'on repairing' and theory and the model evolution as intros to current knowledge builders) will be forthcoming in the near future. I needed some more tags in my life! Right! (Actually did, I need to make sure some things work!)

Right now I'm working out integration of some of the header templates so there is corresponding ease of use, use of the same keywords, and stub-writing such pages as seems necessary as springboards and 'concept-glue' pages to build knowledge systematically without being boring and pedantic. Also want to avoid the short unintegrated presentation of the Trainz Wiki. More like the TRS2006 manual, less pages which aren't conceptually providing a bigger picture, if that makes sense. I want something a newbie or old hand will read and see how things tie together, I guess is another way of putting it.

One of our stated missions at Yz-Tz is to train up and assist a new generation of asset creators, so this is my path to that for now. I still have to learn too much to create myself outside reskinning and a back-burner project to develop techniques for reskinning textures with graffiti. Also looking for a good solid technique to generate Alpha's, preferentially using the quick loading and file translation capabilities of IrfanView. (Think TGA to PNG conversion may be an avenue, but don't know yet. GIMP is a bit much for newbie instructionals, you know! And pay-for graphics apps are out for intro users who aren't 'hooked' on the Trainz lifestyle! Ah, well.)

If anyone wants to help, pitch in anywhere, but the place you can help us most as CC's is vetting and if needed adding some threading to the CC pages that were half of what was up there when I started in a logical order, and/or working over the tables of contents (currently redundant). If you get active that way, drop me a note on my user talk so I can trail along behind and sign off the page updates. Any questions too. This linked page needs a rework, but the beginning of Editor HowTo for the book is here! Those 'tools' are designed so that pages written on the Wikibook can also be ported with minimal editing and fuss to the N3V Wiki, so that's a two-fer for say a route or asset tech manual [Sections planned but not yet implemented]. Soon I'll do up a tutorial on how to write with pics on a word processor, for creating a page easy in wiki markup. // Frank

 

[Fabartus]

US Freight car trucks tip!

but due to the poor or non existent error checking then, were never flagged up at the time.

Yes if missing parts, if syntax errors (not introduced during corruption on HDD, sending or whatnot) but some of that has likely happened during the com-link from DLS to user too, or on the DLS servers from a bad disk sector, etc. Overall, a bit more self-diagnoses and error check codes should probably have been incorporated in CDPs by Greg Lane & the Brew Crew. // F

OK Malcolm, I fixed one asset to work out the process and left the build number unchanged. Now I will wait until the Upload Process says it was OK.

I chose a random asset and cannot say I was overly impressed with it. But I followed the rules and only changed that which were causing errors and warnings.

Getting the kuid number changed without CM getting its knickers in a twist was interesting. Then I remembered SailorDan's comments and used the Import Content trick. Despite N3V providing a link to a "How to repair" page, that was totally useless since it assumes you are repairing your own content. That I don't need help with.

Sorry, if I am hijacking this thread a bit but it seemed related.

Cheers

Pretty please with sugar on top, do let us know ASAP if it went in fine or was rejected. I've an archive I started in the winter I should then vett against the project search engine. It'd been far smarter to just publish a list on the TrainzOnline wiki so we could site search vice that darn kludge of a Secure Server interface. Loading a page and using the browser to find the author's part of the kuid would let me go through that list in short order! // F

Likewise, would the person who updated and then uploaded Toronto Rail Lands 1954 kindly step forward.
The route was never anywhere near Tonga nor in the USA.

Drawing and Quartering ought be reinstated as a "uncruel and usual punishment" along with "Riding people out of town on a rail" and "Tarring and feathering!"

I'd thought he'd done his own update, but I gather the region is a bit off? One hack I found efficacious, Open up the built-in Freight trucks N3V copied from HP-Trainz used on much of their new rolling stock and add the obsolete table entry for the old Auran trucks. Fixed 67+ old rolling stock cars in a few minutes of experimentation! Might add that as a note to descriptions too. // Frank

 

[pcas1986]

...
Pretty please with sugar on top, do let us know ASAP if it went in fine or was rejected. ... // Frank

Yes, it was accepted. It was a build 2.2.

I've now picked another which is build 1.3 and is of kind bridge. This will be an interesting fix as kind bridge is gone, AFAIK, and replaced with kind track.

 

[Fabartus]

Yes, it was accepted. It was a build 2.2.

I've now picked another which is build 1.3 and is of kind bridge. This will be an interesting fix as kind bridge is gone, AFAIK, and replaced with kind track.

Via skype, Paul tells me THAT ONE was rejected. With some error message about v2.9 being the minimum trainz-build the DLS will accept. Did someone else find a procedure that by-passes that stricture so we can stop the bleeding? // Frank

 

[BuilderBob]

Via skype, Paul tells me THAT ONE was rejected. With some error message about v2.9 being the minimum trainz-build the DLS will accept.

There is no way around that as far as I am aware. 2.9 is the minimum, and recommended, build level for all repairs. See:
http://www.trainzportal.com/blog/view/repairing-faulty-assets-on-the-dls

 

[twarner]

And, of course, "IndustRail 3a" was long ago superseded by "IndustRail 4a", then by "IndustRail TS2010". And I've been sitting on a TS12 version for a little time waiting to see how T:ANE progresses. So why bother with 3a?

Hi Phil

I've been successfully running PO & N in T:ANE and was wondering if Industrail would be successful also.

Seeing that there are so many different versions around now, could I ask you which one you'd recommend trying. Are you intending to update to a T:ANE version?

Terry

 

[SailorDan]

Hi Phil

I've been successfully running PO & N in T:ANE and was wondering if Industrail would be successful also.

IndustRail 3a at the current revision (build 3.5, version :3) runs just fine in T:ANE. 2a (3.5, :2) and 1b (3.5, :1) are also fine. For all of them, you might have to hunt for a few dependencies.

 

[twarner]

IndustRail 3a at the current revision (build 3.5, version :3) runs just fine in T:ANE. 2a (3.5, :2) and 1b (3.5, :1) are also fine. For all of them, you might have to hunt for a few dependencies.

Thanks for that!

Terry