amigacooke
Well-known member
My time as a member of the Union of Communication Workers taught me that I was entirely justified in immediately assuming the worst.
'That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain'.
Trainz "Next" is announced...
- Thread starter Tony_Hilliam
- Start date
My time as a member of the Union of Communication Workers taught me that I was entirely justified in immediately assuming the worst.
'That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain'.
This seems a bizarre direction to take for Trainz.
It's like they keep seeing business models used in other areas of finance, and keep trying to use them on an already niche product, even though they don't really fit.
T:ANE split the community, and the usual crowd who defended T:ANE are already split in this thread.
Just how small do they want their customer base to be?
And we may not be shareholders, but we are all stakeholders, and some have invested time and effort for nearly 15 years.
Auran/N3V used to be good at listening to their customers, but that was at least a decade ago.
And while it's popular in these types of threads to say that everyone is getting over-excited and upset, apart from the occasional one, all I see is people calmly airing their disappointment at where their once-favourite Trainsim is heading, me included.
T:ANE left me cold, and that doesn't come close to describing how I feel about this latest announcement.
Good luck everybody!
Brian
(Calm, carrying on, and once again, very disappointed).
It's like they keep seeing business models used in other areas of finance, and keep trying to use them on an already niche product, even though they don't really fit.
T:ANE split the community, and the usual crowd who defended T:ANE are already split in this thread.
Just how small do they want their customer base to be?
And we may not be shareholders, but we are all stakeholders, and some have invested time and effort for nearly 15 years.
Auran/N3V used to be good at listening to their customers, but that was at least a decade ago.
And while it's popular in these types of threads to say that everyone is getting over-excited and upset, apart from the occasional one, all I see is people calmly airing their disappointment at where their once-favourite Trainsim is heading, me included.
T:ANE left me cold, and that doesn't come close to describing how I feel about this latest announcement.
Good luck everybody!
Brian
(Calm, carrying on, and once again, very disappointed).
Yes, definitely. Real world software projects require team development. "Pair programming" or "peer programming" is an extreme form of collaboration in this context. That will work, because they sit next to each other and feedback is immediate. In all other cases people should work on their own task with clear and compact interfaces. Keeps interdependencies to the necessary minimum, even with a lot of abstraction layers and intensively reused class libraries and frameworks. But that's what the repository tools are made for.
You don't want someone else to place buildings or flora when you are still landscaping.
The more modern ones have no problems here. They are nearly as good with binaries as with text. Actually I'm using the SVN algorithm for binaries to distribute TransDEM patches. Nonetheless, changing the Trainz route file formats from binary to XML would be a step forward, making it much more interesting for all sorts of helper tools.
It was one of these things learned from Zusi 2. Proper routes need proper teamwork. (Proper routes: Suitable for professional loco driver training and also appealing to the eye for realism - depending on how much the customer is willing to pay, of course). The modules have clearly defined matching borders (based on UTM coords). There is no baseboard system in Zusi, even if the renderer internally uses 500m and 1000m rasters. Break modules anywhere, usually in the middle between stations, and at any angle. Due to DEM technology, modules will match as they do in Trainz. To set up signalling, adjacent modules will be loaded temporarily. Finding paths (interlocking) is a largely automated process. All these invisible connections between modules are saved with the individual route module. When creating the working time table, the modules are analysed for their overlapping features and the cross-module signalling features get deployed. Finally, during runtime, all comes together and you normally won't notice any module borders, neither visually, nor railway operation-wise.
This modular concept gives maximum flexibility for team development, even if a typical workflow pattern has emerged. In that pattern it alls starts with research, acquiring maps, photos, track diagrams, DEMs, etc. Track laying is next. Zusi 3 has a separate CAD-like tool for that. After that move to 3D editing what we would call the classic route editor. You have typically more than one person active here. But it goes in stages. They have specialists for signalling, catenary, landscaping, buildings, road infrastructure or vegetation, but usually only one developer is working on one module at a time. Finally time table creation, putting the modules together and running trains over them. Another specialist here. All files including resources, are kept in a central repository which has been migrated to SVN a few years ago. It used to be CVS in the beginning. In those times it helped that Zusi 3 files are all XML, because CVS was weak on binary formats. Some of the present day Zusi 3 tools have built-in SVN client support.
Overall, an excellent architecture for route building in a team. Repository technology is the very same as in professional software development development and it offers all these off-the-shelf features: distribution, backup, branching. No complex client/server solution, just applying IT standards. Some might argue, handling SVN would be too difficult for people without sufficient IT background. Be assured, that's not true.
Disadvantage for a commercial company: This architecture does not generate revenue.
(And, since the SVN server is privately operated, no big brother data mining takes place.)
But once again, without proper management, the Zusi route projects would have failed. Everybody doing what he likes will get the project nowhere, even if the current "NEXT" marketing letter suggests just that. But there is a difference between Trainz and Zusi. Trainz takes a much more relaxed approach to route building, since the end result is not the primary goal. The purpose of Surveyor is that the user has fun.
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Good Morning, sir ...
The surveyor-online feature is just a feature ... Like you said, we are not force to use, so, you do have a choose here ... If you prefer to work alone, that's great ...
It's just like at the gym, sir, some folks like working out by themselves, while others like partners ... it's just a choice!
=============================================================
Morning All --
Generally speaking to everyone... this is just laughable seeing all of these negative comments about a product that's so far into the future ... No one knows what beholds you tomorrow .... I mean, it's all mostly negative posts ... either, people are not happy about some subscribe service, which no one knows out here what will it be like, or this new feature that brings folks under the same roof, which gives you a choice: offline ir online ... why worry about all this now?
I normally stay away from this endless pointless threads, because N3V is going to do what they want anyhow; But I agree with Tony's idea, since I like working as a team member, etc ... And also, I see Tony in many threads always trying to help / defense himself, his company, because his cares, and I have lot of respect for someone that put foot and soul each day in these forums, even going as far as to answer threads that should be ignore! I don't see Bill Gates at the Microsoft forum answering questions, ever!!!
Regards
Ish
Here we go again ...
TANE was on dateline! It was release a year early ... life goes on!
About patches, that's not true -- Tony said during the year more fixes are coming in either hotfixes or patches ... Befere anyone ask, he pointed this out on a post which I remember reading!
Ish
marinemania
New member
I have not read this entire thread. But one thing I would like to suggest is that the subscription model be considered for the multiplayer tool if there happens to be a lack of demand at first for all trainz software to be subscription based. This way once the Alpha Testing proves that the concept is fully functional that then the subscription model could be voted on to be applied to the trainz game.
Another is that for a monthly subscription model I think that prices needs to be carefully considered, I can assume that not everyone uses Trainz on a regular basis so the idea that you pay $20AUD adds up very quickly to $120AUD each year. Think finding a way to make a yearly subscription price for long time and long term users should be very carefully considered as a second choice to the buyers of the trainz software. Say you have two users that purchase the monthly subscription software to be able to have an opportunity to use the software to its fullest. While one user chooses to withdraw from their subscription, the other might choose to purchase the year long subscription because they where not forced to purchase the full year without feeling comfortable that they might be stuck with the software for a full year (there are people out there who do think this way). Then you have the long time Trainz users who would be more familiar with the interface of the new software, and likely purchase the yearly subscription.
I do understand that the subscription model does work but it has to be executed properly, Autodesk seems to have implement it well since each year we get a better version of the Autodesk rendering software. But they do have a I hope this is well thought through and it is cost effective for everyone.
Another is that for a monthly subscription model I think that prices needs to be carefully considered, I can assume that not everyone uses Trainz on a regular basis so the idea that you pay $20AUD adds up very quickly to $120AUD each year. Think finding a way to make a yearly subscription price for long time and long term users should be very carefully considered as a second choice to the buyers of the trainz software. Say you have two users that purchase the monthly subscription software to be able to have an opportunity to use the software to its fullest. While one user chooses to withdraw from their subscription, the other might choose to purchase the year long subscription because they where not forced to purchase the full year without feeling comfortable that they might be stuck with the software for a full year (there are people out there who do think this way). Then you have the long time Trainz users who would be more familiar with the interface of the new software, and likely purchase the yearly subscription.
I do understand that the subscription model does work but it has to be executed properly, Autodesk seems to have implement it well since each year we get a better version of the Autodesk rendering software. But they do have a I hope this is well thought through and it is cost effective for everyone.
MeowRailroad
CKRail
Is the subscription thing just to have multiplayer surveyor capabilities, or would we have to pay monthly to play Trainz at all? Not everyone would be able to pay every month, and I think it is really a bad decision as I would prefer to pay for something once and then be able to use it forever. With that method, you can save up for the the item you want, then buy it, but with a subscription, you need to pay every month, and if you can't save enough money in time to pay for every month, it's hopeless. I don't really mind having the multiplayer surveyor as a subscription-based thing since it's sort of an "extra," but if Trainz itself was on a subscription basis, I just wouldn't be able to play it anymore. I would simply not have the funds.
amigacooke
Well-known member
Hi Ish,
Sure there are those who will always give negative comments, but when others start giving a negative reaction to a planned new feature, then it's time to sit up and take notice. I assume N3V have announced this to get and gauge a reaction, otherwise I expect they would have kept quiet about it.
Plus as I mentioned previously (somewhere) trying to change a product when it is ready is totally pointless, trying to change it when it's still in planning is probably mostly pointless, but at least more sensible.
N3V have said there will be other options to Next, but haven't really made clear what they will be (perhaps more diagrams are needed ;-).
How do you know that the fixes wont eventually be done? Where is it written that the name can't change as things are fixed and improved?
Hello, sir!
I think the negative reaction to this new feature is just being overblown -- Who really knows, except N3V, how this new feature is going to pan out, and what else would it include! At this time we don't know.
You know, sir, you being in these forums for so long you know how subjects and topics are torn apart through opinions of all kind ... To be honest, I have respect for Tony for spending time answering and helping folks out there that I figure, well, I throw in my 2 cents to back him up.... to say: stop, think and wait until we get a full list of any new features by year's end.
I mean, seriously, people are talking about TANE issues in this thread, which I don't understand why, because Tony has said that there will be more hotfixes during the year. We just need to take his word on that!
And to all people, read the Trainz Dev forum ... it's open to read for a reasoning ... for transparency.
Also, yeah, changes, as you pointed, can be a risk, however, time is on Tony's side ... He said there's no timetable for this ... it's there in the newsletter ... So, unlike TANE, which was release a year early in my opinion which I expressed, next version is not bound by any dates ... I am just going with what Tony said ... He can always change his mind on that timetable, but I won't speculate on that.
Yes, sir, about your last statement ... But, I guess you would agree with me, sir, that the announcement just a general announcement for now ... I mean, this is a years away, so more detail will come by year's end, when the first beta-testers will be call for duty!
All in all, generally speaking to all ... take the wait and see approach, LOL
On a personnel level, beside backing Tony's idea on this, which I like, I also do it because of this route:
http://forums.auran.com/trainz/show...Official-Support-Thread&highlight=north+metro
This new version can allow me to sit down with Vaugh, who created such an awesome route, discuss how to expand on his route!
.. he can take breaks, while I do my thing, create rolling stocks, buildings.... whatever ... etc You take care now, sir :wave:
Ish
amigacooke
Well-known member
It's probably being overblown by some, but i wouldn't know as they don't feature in the threads that appear to me.
Why, Ish, do you suppose that N3V make these announcements except to provoke a reaction positive or negative? What would be really bad news is if there was little or no reaction at all.
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Hello there again, sir --
Well, ok, ... I guess it makes sense ... like throwing nugget out to the pitbulls, and let them sort it out, and see how that goes!
I guess to evaluate people's reactions!
But you how it goes in these forums, sir ... if Tony comes out here and said, I am going to send you 10 bucks for nothing, folks will find something wrong with that too! LOL
Ish
I hope that fixes will be done. But for this they need time, which they, obviously in this moment, spend for revolutionary imaginations. We need HF now, not somewhere in 2017. As i said in one of another thread, in this moment is impossible to make the serious session.
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amigacooke
Well-known member
But you how it goes in these forums, sir ... if Tony comes out here and said, I am going to send you 10 bucks for nothing, folks will find something wrong with that too! LOL
Ish
I know what you mean, but the perception of some is that the KickStarter was the mirror image of that situation where they paid $10 (or more) to Tony, and got nothing.
Amigacooke
Possibly, but its a "no win" situation. In the past N3V were flamed in these forums when they kept quiet about their plans. Now they are being flamed for announcing their plans well in advance.
Perhaps it is a case of taking the flak now and hoping that things calm down closer to the release when the idea has more "meat on its bones". But, there will always be people who will never be happy with change or new ideas. Fortunately, these people do not run companies.
I've been thinking the same and was about to say something similar.
We have to remember it's Trainz... Whenever there's a change or a thought about something new on the horizon even if it's two years from now, the community will go into full speculation and panic as though the world is about to end.
John
If you'll forgive me I believe that is entirely inaccurate. I don't believe they have been flamed anywhere by anyone for announcing their plans in advance. They have however, had some very negative responses to those plans.
Personally I will wait and see, although I will just say that people saying "trust Tony & N3V, they know what's best" is getting a little tiring. I have been buying Trainz for the last 15 years or so and if I've learned one thing it's definitely not to trust that the next version of Trainz will be the one I've been waiting for.
Stuart
I have been buying Trainz for the last 15 years or so and if I've learned one thing it's definitely not to trust that the next version of Trainz will be the one I've been waiting for.
I think I have been purchasing Trainz for just as long (although, from your header icons, not as often) as you. True, every version has had its "issues" and has fallen short of "perfection". But this is not a bad thing. Each new version has always had improvements and some new ideas (Trainz 2004 introduced working industries and passengers, for example).
The day you purchase "the one you have been waiting for" is the day you will purchase your last version, and miss out on the improvements and new ideas that will come with the next version.