Trainz is not realistic.
- Thread starter ukko_pekka
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EverTrainz
Electric Blue
Although not a tenured Hollywood sound engineer with decades of experience in sci-fi sound FX development, I do have some experience getting my hands dirty in the field. The physics of sound are immensely more complex than those of lighting and materials, and we will probably never have a 99% accurate representation of real-world sound in any game or sound engine. Films are easy since it's for a situation where the physics are "known" i.e. position, velocity, refraction, etc.; not so much the case with a video game where our movement is changing with every movement of the mouse.
What is possible currently? Not much. We have no ability to manipulate pitch of a sound, and we can't even get a Soundscript to play at the appropriate time (tiny-but-noticeable gaps or overlaps in every single enginesound). We cannot control the volume of a sound on the fly based on script, RPM, or any factor other than distance.
If the Soundscript gap/overlap is fixed, we might be able to script our own limited enginesounds, where if we move the power handle from idle to full power in one go, we get a lovely thrashing and throbbing sound effect, instead of the default enginespec traversing every single notch 1 -2, notch 2-3, etc. file. Field diverts and change in engine note would also be possible, but this would rely more on the physics side of things. We would also be able to script "dead" locomotives - we are already able to do this with SetEngineAsset(Asset newEngineAsset). What we need for this to work to complete effect, is a new script command SetEnginesoundAsset(Asset newEnginesoundAsset). Swap out the default spec with an silent sound (or popping spirax valves), and we can have sleeping engines in a shed or yard. Also it would allow for the towing/rescue of dead locomotives more accurately.
The processing of sound, and production of sound are effectively two different issues. Processing would be how, you can hear a diesel engine tearing away for miles, but only a certain frequency range. Depending on the medium the sound must travel through, we might hear more bass, or more of a washed-sounding treble that burbles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZidR1aWmPE - Pay attention to the "whoosing" effect as the diesel gets closer and closer. Only when the loco gets within a very close proximity of the camera, are we able to hear the higher frequencies of the 'whistler'.
If Trainz native Interface can find a clever and low-performance-intensive method of delivering camera position and orientation data to the plugin, we might be able to simulate this sort of effect. It's largely based on equalization. In theory, we would never be able to hear 100% of all frequencies of a sound, since higher or lower areas might get cut-off by EQ based on our height, orientation, and the environment. It might be able to take data from "radars" or "beacons" set in Surveyor per-baseboard, that determine the qualities of the environment. Obviously, the video above would sound much different if it were taken on the approach to a busy city or station area - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toAr_nG28W0 . There would be a lot more reverb and high-speed delay at low intensity, since the station and surrounding infrastructure is ample surface area for the sound waves to bounce off, and sound much more deflected with varying degrees of interference (again, probably set by the user in Surveyor mode). Notice how in the station clip, the 'whistling' is much more apparent than the rumbly bass - the higher frequencies are better able to bounce off the station architecture compared to the lower, and therefore the lovely whistling is amplified.
What would be really helpful among forum members, is if we had some sound recordists.
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EverTrainz
Electric Blue
Might be of interest considering all things TNI - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-FLWabby4Y . The communication from Trainz to the plugin/API might be what needs work, such as beacons/points, a better position/directional correlation from Trainz to the plugin. Engine RPM, speed, weather, time of day, etc. might all be things to consider. No idea how it might interact with existing sounds though.
https://www.fmod.com/products
"FMOD is ready to use with Unity and UE4. It can be easily integrated with other engines using the comprehensive API."
...
"Free Indie License available for developers with less than $200k revenue per year."
I've no idea how much it would run N3V, but the product page for FMOD states a one-time fee of $2000 per game for developers with budgets under $500K annually. The problem where the waters get murky, is if each additional piece of DLC counts as a "game", and whether a fee applies to each and every item sold through N3V. If I sell a pack of 3 wagons for $5 through N3V, would I (or N3V) have to pay $2000? What if it's payware via another store?
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EDIT:
"The pricing above does not apply to Location Based Entertainment (out of home entertainment), Simulators, Embedded System, Installations, and Gaming Systems (Casino). Also excluded are applications or platforms that deliver multiple games or permit users to exploit for commercial gain. To license for these, or any other applications not listed, please contact (email)" ...
https://www.fmod.com/products
"FMOD is ready to use with Unity and UE4. It can be easily integrated with other engines using the comprehensive API."
...
"Free Indie License available for developers with less than $200k revenue per year."
I've no idea how much it would run N3V, but the product page for FMOD states a one-time fee of $2000 per game for developers with budgets under $500K annually. The problem where the waters get murky, is if each additional piece of DLC counts as a "game", and whether a fee applies to each and every item sold through N3V. If I sell a pack of 3 wagons for $5 through N3V, would I (or N3V) have to pay $2000? What if it's payware via another store?
--
EDIT:
"The pricing above does not apply to Location Based Entertainment (out of home entertainment), Simulators, Embedded System, Installations, and Gaming Systems (Casino). Also excluded are applications or platforms that deliver multiple games or permit users to exploit for commercial gain. To license for these, or any other applications not listed, please contact (email)" ...
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paperpusher
paperpusher
While, it is not a perfect software. I have been frustrated by some of the limitations and my lack of artistic abilities in making beautiful models of locations. But I enjoy it, use some of the very good uploads others have provided. It allows me to enjoy a subject, Transit systems etc. Hours of innovation, design, and occasional torture from a faulty unit. Not even real modeling is perfect, but what it does bring is people together to enjoy a hobby.
its a niche product, its not grand theft auto.The money to make it utterly realistic isnt there and given we all want model railways from all over the world , there never will be.
I play both and I like TRS2019 more.
The so called realism in the TSxx series career scenarios is to watch the simplistic HUD all the time and manage a speed which is about 0,5 mph above the speed limit and accelerate and brake as fast as possible to reach the scenario points, which is far from realistic.
Yes you can turn off the points for career scenarios and then they are at least playable without acting like a machine, the advanced controls of the engines, which are only a few in compare to the whole DLC content, are also interesting for a while, but overall all this features are not so important for me.
I like to play TRS2019, because I can manually switch the time / weather during a session, the game has more freedom than Dovetail games Train Simulator.
The so called realism in the TSxx series career scenarios is to watch the simplistic HUD all the time and manage a speed which is about 0,5 mph above the speed limit and accelerate and brake as fast as possible to reach the scenario points, which is far from realistic.
Yes you can turn off the points for career scenarios and then they are at least playable without acting like a machine, the advanced controls of the engines, which are only a few in compare to the whole DLC content, are also interesting for a while, but overall all this features are not so important for me.
I like to play TRS2019, because I can manually switch the time / weather during a session, the game has more freedom than Dovetail games Train Simulator.
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Here's a more realistic view of virtual railways than Trainz will ever be!:
https://www.thomasandfriends.com/en-us
Trainz is a toy and will never emulate the real world!
Rob.
https://www.thomasandfriends.com/en-us
Trainz is a toy and will never emulate the real world!
Rob.
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Not being salty, but at least TSW2 gives you a timetable to follow, the whole purpose of a passenger railway. Imagine Trainz trying to do what DTG have done to recreate the Bakerloo Line? Even with the questionable advances made in TRS20219 (i.e. if you can get the unsaveable advanced post processing settings right) TSW2 generally looks a whole lot better. And having the ability to walk around in proper FPS in the world is a huge boon, though I do share the view that putting up posters or watering flower beds is a chore too far. As regards physics, on Sandpatch setting up the locos correctly is actually more complex than in Run 8, if you don't do it correctly you won't even get out of the yard area.
TSW2 has also pro and cons like any other game of course.
I also played this title and it didn't catch me, maybe it was the unfinished track layout like in the Oakville Suvbdivision or the mentioned timetable mode.
If this is your thing, enjoy it but those features you named are secondary for me, I can use a free camera and see not a big difference in walking around using an ego perspective.
Also the timetable feature didnt impress me it looks more like a cheap way to create a bunch of scenarios with the lowest effort as possible, but thats my point of view on TSW2.
I have the most fun in TRS2019 and I dont want to tell anyone to have it as well, if you have more fun in TSW2 or TS2021, play them, but TRS2019 is for me, the most fun package.
It also includes many features of the EEP series to build own model railway layouts but much extended in compare to EEP.
All the best
Georg
agathosdaimon
New member
i will second the comment that Trainz is fun - this and that it has a lot of community content for regions that the DTG games just continue to ignore - such as Australia. Trainz has and has always had good aussie trains and thanks to some good folks there are many routes to get.
Lately i am just enjoying Trainz 2 mobile on my ipad, which thankfully also still allows my old 3rd gen ipad to run it fine.
TSW1/2 look beautiful but i dont like that they still lack steam locomotives.
I still like just to play Trainz 2004 and Trainz 2006 also, and i have that Railworks/Train Simulator is exclusively through Steam, as i actually liked how the first Railworks looked and ran but then they force update the game every year to the new iteration.
Lately i am just enjoying Trainz 2 mobile on my ipad, which thankfully also still allows my old 3rd gen ipad to run it fine.
TSW1/2 look beautiful but i dont like that they still lack steam locomotives.
I still like just to play Trainz 2004 and Trainz 2006 also, and i have that Railworks/Train Simulator is exclusively through Steam, as i actually liked how the first Railworks looked and ran but then they force update the game every year to the new iteration.
~> Buckleys!From the start in the early 2000's, I think, in all sincerity, that the designers of TRAINZ .......Auran / NV3 are brilliant . They've created amazing software that appeals to train lovers who want to "play" TRAINZ and / or create routes with it.
For me, being able to create a route is like giving an artist the tools to paint on a canvas. They even give you the canvas. How 'real" Trainz is depends on the artistic eye of the route builder and understanding of how actual rail services work or worked, depending on what era you are focused on. This isn't a game for me, anymore than a musical instrument would be for a musician. Are there other simulators out there that offer route building AND driving experiences more realistically than TRAINZ ? I don't know and I don't care. I'm sticking with what I like.
Have a great day !
For me, being able to create a route is like giving an artist the tools to paint on a canvas. They even give you the canvas. How 'real" Trainz is depends on the artistic eye of the route builder and understanding of how actual rail services work or worked, depending on what era you are focused on. This isn't a game for me, anymore than a musical instrument would be for a musician. Are there other simulators out there that offer route building AND driving experiences more realistically than TRAINZ ? I don't know and I don't care. I'm sticking with what I like.
Have a great day !
norfolksouthern37
what's a normal map?
This is pretty funny, but it is still merely your subjective opinion.
There are several different levels of "realism" that are being talked about or implied here.
Visual Realism: This will come to fruition when the software that can now create totally realistic artificial worlds and environments in movies can be run, affordably, on a PC and can be used by non-technical geeks such as ourselves. This is almost certainly a generation or two of video card developments (at least) away from being practical on a home PC/laptop but you can never say never when it comes to IT.
Control Realism: I recently saw a video of a railroad simulator (don't remember which one) where the driver (user) of a diesel loco had to go through the entire "cold start" procedure for starting up a diesel loco. That took too long for my enjoyment and I could not imagine getting up at 3am to have a virtual steam loco running by 7am. But apart from that, the in-cab controls are an important part of many users experiences. I hasten to add that I have never progressed beyond the "W", "X" and "S" keys and using driver commands.
Operational Realism: Things such as timetables (which Trainz lacks), AI controls (opinions here differ), loading/unloading, etc. You could probably add in breakdowns (that's certainly realism but is not for everyone), derailments (again not for everyone and how much realism is important?), drivers not turning up for work, etc. The list could go on.
You probably could also add Environmental Realism (moonlight, etc) and Economic Realism (profit/loss, etc). At some point all this realism could turn the simulation into a game.
My thoughts.
Visual Realism: This will come to fruition when the software that can now create totally realistic artificial worlds and environments in movies can be run, affordably, on a PC and can be used by non-technical geeks such as ourselves. This is almost certainly a generation or two of video card developments (at least) away from being practical on a home PC/laptop but you can never say never when it comes to IT.
Control Realism: I recently saw a video of a railroad simulator (don't remember which one) where the driver (user) of a diesel loco had to go through the entire "cold start" procedure for starting up a diesel loco. That took too long for my enjoyment and I could not imagine getting up at 3am to have a virtual steam loco running by 7am. But apart from that, the in-cab controls are an important part of many users experiences. I hasten to add that I have never progressed beyond the "W", "X" and "S" keys and using driver commands.
Operational Realism: Things such as timetables (which Trainz lacks), AI controls (opinions here differ), loading/unloading, etc. You could probably add in breakdowns (that's certainly realism but is not for everyone), derailments (again not for everyone and how much realism is important?), drivers not turning up for work, etc. The list could go on.
You probably could also add Environmental Realism (moonlight, etc) and Economic Realism (profit/loss, etc). At some point all this realism could turn the simulation into a game.
My thoughts.
@pware
This is true and there are train simulators which fit each genre you named.
Visual Realism is shown in Train Sim World 2, but this is it. Beside the mainlines and the schedule mode driving constantly from one to another end of the route, there is nothing to do except watching high end graphics.
Control Realism is in my opnion in Zusi 3, it has less graphics as TRS 2019 but the most realistic locomotive controls.
Operational Realism is in my opinion the possibility to load/unload cargo at several production sites, branch lines and main lines, and this is what TRS2019 makes at best, there is no other simulator with routes which are so usable and functional like in Trainz.
Environmental Realism is included in all Train Simulators and Economic Realism you can find in Train Fever or Transport Fever
So there are games for any of the named genres and every train fan can chose the most fitting package to have the most fun.
This is true and there are train simulators which fit each genre you named.
Visual Realism is shown in Train Sim World 2, but this is it. Beside the mainlines and the schedule mode driving constantly from one to another end of the route, there is nothing to do except watching high end graphics.
Control Realism is in my opnion in Zusi 3, it has less graphics as TRS 2019 but the most realistic locomotive controls.
Operational Realism is in my opinion the possibility to load/unload cargo at several production sites, branch lines and main lines, and this is what TRS2019 makes at best, there is no other simulator with routes which are so usable and functional like in Trainz.
Environmental Realism is included in all Train Simulators and Economic Realism you can find in Train Fever or Transport Fever
So there are games for any of the named genres and every train fan can chose the most fitting package to have the most fun.
Run 8? Though I must admit I can't quite get my head round their car forwarding system.
Also don't forget Derail Valley albeit last time I checked it still only has the one map and no AI trains.
TSW2 though is still my "goto" at present for the driving experience, simply because of timetable mode and the first person ability. It is the pretty much the epitome of what I dreamed about all those years ago, when we were limited to the old text based programmes like Simudrive or the side scrolling Trainmaster 3.
Run 8 has no international routes or content, so it is not very interesting for me, but if you're into US railways only then this is a good simulator of course.
As I said before, I played TSW2 and have my opinion about it, nothing can change it because I played for many hours by myself
And to be honest DTG products are far the worst named here, TSxx has so bad routes, the functional container terminal only exists in tutorials, i never saw a working cargo terminal in one of their routes, if you have Hamburg Lübeck, you see the unfinished harbor area, and this is just one, another one is the san francisco - gilroy route, where there is a container crane in the harbor but a far too short track so you can also not use it.
In TSW the full harbor area of the Oakville Subdivision is not usable, they didnt fix this for TSW 2, just re-released it again in the same condition, well m done with DTG and their philosophy forever ^^
Kind regards
Georg
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