Trainz-build numbers below 3.7 are no longer supported....

Briefly, what exactly does nonsupport mean ?

Does it mean that all 09, 10, 12 uploads to the DLS are no longer accepted to N3V ?

Does it mean that SP patch's for older versions will be taken down from the patch webpage ?

Does it mean that a huge update (cleanup of the DLS) will increase the trainz-build numeral in each old config file, breaking old assets ?

Does it mean that DLC assets will have a new updated higher trainz-build numeral, breaking the DLC for 09, 10, 12 users ?
 
My 2 cents.

Putting aside whether "TS12" is the original or TS12 SP1, I guess the main complaint is the lack of advance notification about the interpretation of DLS upload support for 3.5. Yes, I think that could have been handled better considering many may have been updating assets on the assumption that 3.5 was OK.

I'm not going to bother arguing whether TS12 SP1 is OK or not since I have no problems with it - apart from the tortuous upgrade process. Let us never speak of that again.

I just checked and there are 12,794 assets on the DLS at 3.7. Most of the authors who contributed those assets have not complained in this debate. :eek:

The other point worth noting is that the T:ANE promotion material always said that TS12 compliant assets would work in T:ANE. I guess the interpretation is now that TS12 SP1 assets will work in T:ANE. i.e. if you upload a valid 3.7 asset then anyone downloading it within T:ANE will have no problems with it - other than possible missing dependencies.

Let's look forward rather than looking back.
 
I'm not a creator and I am running 61388 without issue so my view may be somewhat different. I understand the reasoning behind this decision and even approve of it in the long run. I had already pretty much decided to keep 61388 on my computer and continue to use it alongside TANE, keeping most of the content there, and using only new TANE specific stuff as it becomes available moving forward.

That being said, there was no need to just dump this on everyone on a Friday and then go off for the weekend, but as already said, this isn't the first time it's been done. The creators here, especially those who are freeware oriented have been the life blood of the franchise since day 1 and they deserve better, if not from a practical standpoint at the very least as a courtesy for all they've contributed. If the developers want to move TANE in a true new era in terms of content and maximizing profit, all well and good, They are a business, not a charity, they are in this to make money. However, this move is a big "FU" to the people who have put them in the position they are, including getting them through a time where the franchise was nearly dead. They deserve better.

Like I said, I don't have an issue with the idea, I can deal with not using "older" content moving forward, but it has made me begin to think a bit differently. Despite their mistakes, I've generally always supported the developer's decisions, I pledged to the KS drive, I even upgraded my reward to a Collector's Edition, in a leap of faith. I almost wish I hadn't. I'll see how things play out, but for the first time , this is also making me consider taking a look at that "other train sim".
 
the tortuous upgrade process. Let us never speak of that again.

Amen to that, just started first stage 49922 to57720 running (bite the bullet and all that), 30 mins in and ts12a.ja is at 728mb of 1.2Gb rebuild, only another 7 .ja files to go... :eek:
 
When asking for technical support, most software companies would respond by saying 'have you applied all the available patches?' If the answer is 'no', the response would typically be 'well, apply the patches and come back if it's still a problem.' Seems logical to me that TS12, patched to SP1, is effectively the only 'supported' version.

Despite my natural aversion to DRM, I've been running TS12, SP1 for a long time now and all is good here.

R3
 
When asking for technical support, most software companies would respond by saying 'have you applied all the available patches?' If the answer is 'no', the response would typically be 'well, apply the patches and come back if it's still a problem.' Seems logical to me that TS12, patched to SP1, is effectively the only 'supported' version.

Despite my natural aversion to DRM, I've been running TS12, SP1 for a long time now and all is good here.

R3
Taking this statement and applying it to your operating system, doesn't everyone have service packs, patches, and updates to Windows XP, Windows 7, and Windows 8/8.1? I would like to know who here runs their computer without updates, and trainz without updates. That could shed light on why they have problems.

Paul
 
Help with this one running 49922 build my trainz said it is out of date so spent 6 hours tiring to download the patch that i need after downloading patches then it error out patch could not load so could some shed some light what is the problem is with the download also tried the one from shane's site no luck there neither
Thanks
Robert Evans
 
Help with this one running 49922 build my trainz said it is out of date so spent 6 hours tiring to download the patch that i need after downloading patches then it error out patch could not load so could some shed some light what is the problem is with the download also tried the one from shane's site no luck there neither
Thanks
Robert Evans

Can I check what the exact error was from the patcher? It may be that you haven't selected the folder that it needs to patch.

Shane
 
Taking this statement and applying it to your operating system, doesn't everyone have service packs, patches, and updates to Windows XP, Windows 7, and Windows 8/8.1? I would like to know who here runs their computer without updates, and trainz without updates. That could shed light on why they have problems.

Paul

I run most of my OS' without patches, and Win7 without SP1. No problems here. TS2010 runs at 44088, TS12 at 49922. Again, works great, and none of the headaches later patches have brought, although the latest TS2010 patch isn't too big of a deal - I just haven't bothered for the time being.

The big difference between N3V and Microsoft, however, is that Microsoft's policy is to only support certain Service Pack levels (it's actually quite clearly stated as Item #18, below) and that policy has been in effect for a number of years; N3Vs states no such thing, at least not as of yesterday. Particularly on the most important place that N3V themselves often cite as the holy grail of support: The Lifecycle policy published on the wiki. They're trying to change the rules after-the-fact for TS12 (and, perhaps, for T:ANE).

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/gp/lifepolicy
 
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Can I check what the exact error was from the patcher? It may be that you haven't selected the folder that it needs to patch.

Shane
This is the error
File error while reading patch data.
Also this is TRS12 and windows 8.1 is my os
 
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Sounds like a corrupt patch file to me, however I would suggest running it with your antivirus disabled and see if that helps.

Shane
 
N3V is heading the way the previous owners of Trainz (Auran) did with Fury. They are NOT listening to the customer, and trying to quite all support, and only leave 1 and 1/2 products supported. The Trainz community has gone bezerk because of this. A similar thing has been going on in the Minecraft community since last October. 2 great games, that may die off far too soon.
 
Didn't see this post until earlier today.
Trainz is now aimed at gamers, they don't give a stuff for those who have been loyal for years.
The thing is that gamers wont spend time fixing faulty assets, or put up with the game freezing while it updates assets again and again. They want to play their game.
You're right. They could now be aiming at casual gamers who will want:

  • Their game to perform without error, straight out of the box.
  • Work well with their graphics card with no intervention from them.
  • Download and install patches seamlessly and without error.
  • Download content with all dependencies without the need for finding assets themselves.
  • Get immediate support from the makers of the game, with no forum participation necessary.
Does this sound like T:ANE to anybody?
It doesn't to me.
In fact, it doesn't sound like any version of Trainz.
If it wasn't for the forums, and the helpful people here, I think most of us would have given up on Trainz a long time ago.

If they are trying to emulate other company's business models, then they should at least make sure they have the same resources as those companies.
If asked, I'm sure those other companies would love a community like this one.
And yet, N3V seem hell-bent on destroying it.
Beats me.

Oh, and they'll only get one chance from casual gamers.
Mess them around, and they'll be off, never to return.
They certainly wouldn't take the nonsense we've taken, and stick around for more.

Be careful what you wish for....

Brian.
 
Briefly, what exactly does nonsupport mean ?

Does it mean that all 09, 10, 12 uploads to the DLS are no longer accepted to N3V ?
No, it means that the trainz-build of the assets needs to be 3.7 or higher to upload to the DLS. Should be quite clear if you read the announcement.
Does it mean that SP patch's for older versions will be taken down from the patch webpage ?
Of course not - this is covered on the life cycle wiki page.
Does it mean that a huge update (cleanup of the DLS) will increase the trainz-build numeral in each old config file, breaking old assets ?
It's quite likely that an update will take place to make the current DLS assets error free in T:ANE, in fact this would make a lot of sense. 'Error free' does not mean that the assets will be optimal for T:ANE, this will be quite hard to do in a lot of cases. If an update does take place the original assets are still available though.
Does it mean that DLC assets will have a new updated higher trainz-build numeral, breaking the DLC for 09, 10, 12 users ?
You don't really think that N3V are daft enough to introduce new DLC with a trainz-build of less than 4.2 (T:ANE release version) do you? I would expect that the current DLC would be updated for T:ANE with a new trainz-build if it is necessary to use new T:ANE features and that the older versions would continue to be available but who really knows apart from N3V?

Paul
 
When asking for technical support, most software companies would respond by saying 'have you applied all the available patches?' If the answer is 'no', the response would typically be 'well, apply the patches and come back if it's still a problem.' Seems logical to me that TS12, patched to SP1, is effectively the only 'supported' version.

Despite my natural aversion to DRM, I've been running TS12, SP1 for a long time now and all is good here.

R3
Agree 100%. Taking some of these arguements to their logical conclusion if TS12 means build 3.5/3.6/3.7 then T:ANE means build 3.9/4.0/4.1/4.2. If I make a model for build 4.2 people will expect to to work in 3.9/4.0/4.1 as well if they don't want to use the final version of T:ANE. The trainz-build number should tell you the version of Trainz that the asset has been tested in - building in one version and then just backdating the trainz-build without testing is just asking for trouble. Or are people seriously suggesting that content creators have all of these builds installed to test TS12 content in 3.5/3.6/3.7 because they won't patch to the latest version?

Paul
 
As we've stated more than once here, this is matter of communication and respect for the user. I fully agree, however, the issue is deeper than that based what I've seen here and on my years of experience in the corporate world. The problem is we have people who are very smart but have no clue about processes and impact on the users. They for one, whoever they may be at N3V, don't use the program and don't care to. They've never experienced the long validations, or a dorky interface. For them the program works, and they will make changes to suit them rather than look at the full picture before considering updates and process changes.

This then causes other issues. Since they have no forward-facing job, don't use the program other than to test code bits, and only work in the technical aspects of things, they don't have the ability to consider the impact of change. In part this could also be arrogance and selfishness, but I think it's more just inexperience and cluelessness. I saw this while at Oracle and even Polaroid way back when. One of the more important things to learn is the impact of a process on the outcome, weigh the differences and see if the end result is worth the effort. In other words test the waters and see, and don't do things during critical periods!

What also comes out of this is business impact. The first thing my manager told me at Polaroid, and reminded me again at Latran Technologies, the spin-off from Polaroid' Graphics Imaging division , was never do anything at the quarter-end, month-end, or year-end, that will impact the business cycle. Being a technician and server guy, I had no clue that that a server upgrade during this time could impact this critical time of year for the company. A patch came in; it was time to install it. For me I wanted to put it in during the day, whether it was May 15th or June 30th. Why these periods? This was the most critical time for the company to close sales and close the books. I didn't fully realize this impact until I worked in order admin and financial reporting where I was responsible for running the reports for upper management and finance as well as setting up the general ledger accounts and other boring stuff.

Oracle suffered, and probably still suffers from, the same issue we're seeing now. Why on earth did the mail server (Oracle Beehive) group decide to do a major upgrade during the 4th quarter end? Hello! My phone, being in support at the time, was ringing off the hook because the sales people couldn't send the final documents to the field operations to close the sales. Us technicians had no advance warning (Sounds familiar!) that the Beehive server was going down for many ours and may impact operations. It took a phone call to the helpless desk to determine the cause, and the answer was "Oh Beehive is down for maintenance and upgrades". Gee, thanks! We were stuck in the water as their major link was shutdown or severely impacted. We struggled through this and I got on the phone with my manager. She was quite influential and spoke with the people in charge of this. Soon after that all server upgrades were planned and executed outside of these critical times. The problem is the people in the server group are at a 100% disconnect from the rest of the business and the impact on business.

So here we have a group of smart folks who don't use the program at any real level. This also explains why there are still those unrefined things such as layers and other oddities we have faced since day one with Surveyor, or the long validations and poorly planned or thought out impact of the DLC process and servers. Sure they work because we've figured out how to attach the bailing wire to the chewing gum, but the real refinement has never been implemented. This also explains the lack of proper documentation. The programming geeks know what goes on, but documentation is never one of their top skills. It never will be and it truly is a rare find to have a programmer who can write documentation too, and even document changes as they go along. For most of these guys and gals, it's the farthest thing from their thought. They'd rather play with the code and let mold grow out of old coffee cups instead of putting things together as a package. This is why many companies hire tech-writers, and a full staff of them too, to put together the proper documentation and user manuals.

This also explains the lack of communication regarding changes. The schedule is done at their convenience without looking at how it may impact the users. I agree an advanced notice on the changes we experienced this weekend would have been more than welcome. The change isn't the issue, though it's a sticky wicket in many respects, but knowing the curve ball is coming is better than none at all. This also explains the surprises we see with the service packs, and the grand fiasco we had with SP1 for TS12. It all boils down to poor planning and implementation more than ill will towards the community.

I could go on with many more examples from my past experiences as well as those we've all experienced here in the Trainz community. What would I do differently?

* Implement business planning meetings (yet another meeting!) between the development team and management. Where upcoming patching and software cycles can be discussed with all parties. Marketing and Community Support really needed to know about this... This is more than just discussing patches and new toys. This is to discuss future plans and let management know so they can investigate and look at business impact if any.

* Actually have the developers use the program for once. Make them go through the full gamut from installing, patching, building routes, downloading; everything! If they see what we go through, perhaps they can change things. Just seeing the little bits under a microscope isn't actually using the full package.

* Be more open about upcoming changes... (What's the big secret?)

and so on...

John
 
If this forum had a thanks button, I would definitely click it John.
Very nicely put, from someone who's seen both sides of the fence.

+1

Brian.
 
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